Madison Wisconson

In some of the area schools the teachers are passing out info to the students and encouraging them to get involved/protest. Signs are being made during class time. The schools are being disrupted, etc. If I was governor of this state every teacher involved in this crap would be jobless come Monday morn.
 
Wow. This post is headed towards a nomination for the CSR Post of the Year awards for sure. The category? We'll have to wait a bit more to decide.

Pres, you need to push the laptop across the table for a little while. I haven't seen any attack on teachers in this thread. None.

In fact, there is no attack anywhere. There is, however, a rational suggestion that 70 years of unionized public service jobs have resulted in a disproportionate balance of high-paying jobs in the public sector vs. what is available in the private sector.

What is happening in Wisconsin right now is going to happen in every state and province over the next 10 years as the economy continues to eliminate high-paying low-skilled jobs.

Every public sector job that pays high wages and provides great benefits is under scrutiny. Teaching in but one of these jobs under scrutiny. So are a multitude of others.

There are hundreds of examples, with teaching perhaps not the best of the bunch. How about a City of Toronto subway cleaner making $70,000 a year? Does that really sound like a good use of taxpayer funds? Why not outsource these types of jobs to private industry and pay half?

What is so difficult for the general population to accept is that the gap between rich and poor is growing wider. Fast. And, it may mirror the gap between smart/educated and less-smart/less-educated. Those without smarts and education are doomed to make less and less as the years roll on.

The days of the factory worker having three cars, a boat, and a cottage, along with 10 weeks off and as much overtime as he wants are over. And I don't mean to single out factory workers any more than I'm assuming the OP meant to single out teachers... things are changing.

We can't afford the way we used to live...
 
Presentation said:
I'm self employed? Wha.......? Oh, cause of the business we own in my signature that I don’t work for?

OK now I can tell you guys are making stuff up and simply positing stuff to try to get me upset.

Too many people on this board know my employer. I’ve even posted about my involvement in the marine manufacturing industry.
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Pres, you are a valuable member of this boating forum, I have gained from your input, and value your thoughts. I hope you think about mine. You are too close to this issue and have personalized what were intended to be general comments about a national news story. I think it would be better for all if you let this thread run its course and ignored it. I plan to post my thoughts when I'm at a real keyboard. Good luck buddy, MM
 
MonacoMike said:
Pres, you are a valuable member of this boating forum, I have gained from your input, and value your thoughts. I hope you think about mine. You are too close to this issue and have personalized what were intended to be general comments about a national news story. I think it would be better for all if you let this thread run its course and ignored it. I plan to post my thoughts when I'm at a real keyboard. Good luck buddy, MM
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Very well said.
 
Pres....This morning I read each and every post to get a feel of what you and others are saying before I posted.
I am glad your wife is smart and dedicated to the students she teaches. Because if she weren't I would guess she would have quit by now. Life is life. What we make of it and choose to do with it is up to us. I have printed out a pay scale for 2011 for enlisted soldiers. I am sure that everyday that they put their life the line the think - I wish I were making more money. Yet for $1467 to $1915 a month they serve. They serve so to help others while their families struggle to make ends meet. Sure the majority of them didn't graduate with honors but they may not have had the opportunities like others. I know. I joined the Army after a year of college. I joined because I wanted to marry my high school sweet heart. I worked hard, went to school did everything I could to get promoted and move up. Did we struggle yes. But we tightened our belts and moved on. Later I went to Officers Candidate School. Graduated 5th out of 240 soldiers. Did the same at the basic course and through out the rest of my career. I remember when there was no, that's right no, cost of living raise. Just like this year for the next two years. But we will survive. I went to war and it is hell. But nobody on capital hill said - let's increase their income. I now have to pay more for my health insurance. Just saw my retiree pay decrease b/c of the increase. The system is broken.

I hope your wife continues to teach. It sounds like she must love what she is doing. If not find a job that pays all the things you want. I am not bashing you or your wife. The system is broken. Ok.



Pay Grade Years of Service
Less than 2 Over 2 Over 3 Over 4 Over 6
E-9
E-8
E-7 2638 2879 2989 3135 3249
E-6 2281 2510 2621 2728 2840
E-5 2091 2230 2338 2448 2620
E-4 1915 2014 2123 2231 2326
E-3 1730 1839 1950 1950 1950
E-2 1645 1645 1645 1645 1645
E-1 1467 1467 1467 1467 1467
E-1 with less than 4 months of service 1357
\Pay Grade Years of Service
Over 8 Over 10 Over 12 Over 14 Over 16
E-9 4635 4740 4872 5029
E-8 3794 3962 4066 4191 4325
E-7 3444 3554 3751 3914 4025
E-6 3094 3193 3382 3441 3484
E-5 2800 2947 2965 2965 2965
E-4 2326 2326 2326 2326 2326
E-3 1950 1950 1950 1950 1950
E-2 1645 1645 1645 1645 1645
E-1 1467 1467 1467 1467 1467
Pay Grade Years of Service
Over 18 Over 20 Over 22 Over 24 Over 26
E-9 5185 5436 5649 5874 6215
E-8 4568 4692 4902 5018 5305
E-7 4143 4189 4343 4426 4740
E-6 3533 3533 3533 3533 3533
E-5 2965 2965 2965 2965 2965
E-4 2326 2326 2326 2326 2326
E-3 1950 1950 1950 1950 1950
E-2 1645 1645 1645 1645 1645
E-1 1467 1467 1467 1467 1467
Enlisted Over 30 Years of Service
Pay Grade Years of Service
Over 30 Over 34 Over 38 Over 40
E-9 6526 6853 7196 Make room
E-8 5411 5411 5411 Retire!!
 
Good point Andrew, I was going to use the City of Camden NJ as an example. They just laid off 100 Police and Fireman!:wow: I think Camden is in the top 3 in Murders in the US. There is no longer a Commercial Tax Base in the city and little to no Tax Revenue from it's citizens. The unions did not want to forgo negotiated increases and the city could not afford them so they fired alot of people! Not to pick on the TEACHERS UNION but recently there was an article in the Asbury Park press about a teacher who was retiring and her base retirement package was over $175k per year, THATS RETIRED PENSION!!!!!. I don't know about you guy's but I didn't make that kind of money WORKING.
Our Tax bill this year was about $8k and $5300 of it was school tax and we don't even have children(that's another arguement)
When I was a kid and cut out of school and goy caught my Dad would say to me "What do you want to do when you grow up be a Garbageman! I know guy's who work in NYC Department of Sanitation that are making $125k w/o overtime. We can't keep paying this kind of Compensation in this economy!:smt009
Well Said, Joe:thumbsup:
 
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VTSeaRay said:
according to reports, some of the affected union teachers took their students (who had no clue why they were there) to the protests in Madison to increase the #'s there...

cute. Your tax dollars at work!
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Just wait until the kids get the notifications that they owe union dues for this months allowance. :grin:
 
Two Peas said:
Wow. This post is headed towards a nomination for the CSR Post of the Year awards for sure. The category? We'll have to wait a bit more to decide.

Pres, you need to push the laptop across the table for a little while. I haven't seen any attack on teachers in this thread. None.

In fact, there is no attack anywhere. There is, however, a rational suggestion that 70 years of unionized public service jobs have resulted in a disproportionate balance of high-paying jobs in the public sector vs. what is available in the private sector.

What is happening in Wisconsin right now is going to happen in every state and province over the next 10 years as the economy continues to eliminate high-paying low-skilled jobs.

Every public sector job that pays high wages and provides great benefits is under scrutiny. Teaching in but one of these jobs under scrutiny. So are a multitude of others.

There are hundreds of examples, with teaching perhaps not the best of the bunch. How about a City of Toronto subway cleaner making $70,000 a year? Does that really sound like a good use of taxpayer funds? Why not outsource these types of jobs to private industry and pay half?

What is so difficult for the general population to accept is that the gap between rich and poor is growing wider. Fast. And, it may mirror the gap between smart/educated and less-smart/less-educated. Those without smarts and education are doomed to make less and less as the years roll on.

The days of the factory worker having three cars, a boat, and a cottage, along with 10 weeks off and as much overtime as he wants are over. And I don't mean to single out factory workers any more than I'm assuming the OP meant to single out teachers... things are changing.

We can't afford the way we used to live...
Click to expand...
I agree with Two Peas that the politicians think they have found a soft spot to continue lowering the middle class standard of living.What will happen when lower wages means less revenue,will our politicians start lowering their standard of living ?
 
blackbeard said:
I agree with Two Peas that the politicians think they have found a soft spot to continue lowering the middle class standard of living.What will happen when lower wages means less revenue,will our politicians start lowering their standard of living ?
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Why would they. They voted themselves a raise this year for both houses. The Speaker should have taken Nancy's plane and sold it. It really doesn't matter if they are Dems or Republicans - do what is right by the people of this country. I don't know if I would vote for him but Trump said, "If I run it will be to get this country back on track and get our respect back". To the D&R's it is a power struggle for them and the rich that help keep them in office. :smt013
 
The issue is not children, education, nor teachers; it is about POWER and its cousin MONEY. It is not much about the money paid to teachers, but rather the money paid to unions and their power brokers. Yes, there is talk about the amount teachers are being xxxxx (asked, required, made) to contribute to their health care and retirement but I suspect the underlying power issues really are the biggies.

First the governor's move is in reaction to a 2009 law implemented by the then-Democratic legislature that expanded public unions' collective-bargaining rights and lifted existing limits on teacher raises. This is an attempt to roll back policy all the way back to 2009. WOW how did we make it before then? Then the governor would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots. If teachers LOVE their unions soo much just vote for them every year so we taxpayers know you still want them and GO vote for them. Not just the votes of union radicals would count, but the vote of every teacher.

In addition, he would end the government's practice of automatically deducting union dues from employee paychecks. For Wisconsin teachers, union dues total between $700 and $1,000 a year. That means the public would not be the bill collector for the union. Then the teachers that LOVE their union could happily mail in the money and the union could hound the rest of their members like any other organization that needs money. Lastly this bill would take away the right to bargain for anything other than compensation. This means the union cannot tell the citizens how to run their schools with binding work rules. Boy without those binding work rules I’m sure education would suffer.

So, as you can see there is more going on here than the sound bite news delivers. This is a struggle for institutional money at the public trough by spoiled pigs that for years have said “give us money and we will educate your kids”. They have failed and now it is time to change the system fundamentally.

Our education system is so dismal that a recent stop at a fast food restaurant was brought to mind. The computer system was down but no food systems were disrupted, the managers and staff could not conduct transactions in a fashion mankind has for thousands of years without their computer to tell them what to do. My god, our average youth cannot clerk in a 1862 mercantile. Our teachers led by their unions have failed us.

MM
 
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It really boils down to this: The private sector is what pays for the public sector, and the private sector retains the right to decide how much they want to spend on it and what they want to spend it on. They retain the right to determine the quality of what it spends its money on.

Have to ask this question: If we pay a teacher $10k more a year, will we get smarter kids? Personally, I think we have hit the peak of the market in terms of pay, and now we realize that we are overpaying for certain public services. The amount of money that the private sector as put into public services is showing little increasing value.

And when the private sector is low on money, it will spend less on the public sector.

Simple.
 
Presentation said:
I'm self employed? Wha.......? Oh, cause of the business we own in my signature that I don’t work for?

OK now I can tell you guys are making stuff up and simply positing stuff to try to get me upset.

Too many people on this board know my employer. I’ve even posted about my involvement in the marine manufacturing industry. I’ve even given some of our products to fellow forum members.
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OK, The way you presented yourself thought you are self employed, sorry. But I would bet you still need your wifes insurance.
 
All of the reading that I have done shows that private school teachers make considerably less than their public school counterparts and most kids from private schools have higher SAT scores. Private schools typically spend less per student with better results. I have seen the waste in our own schools and the way they are run. Unfortunately most school administrators and union leaders have never been responsible for a P & L therefore they have little clue of how to get better performance within a set budget. If a business doesn't manage it's profit and losses, it soon closes it's doors. Performance at our public schools should be looked at as a business. Teachers should be paid on performance and not tenure. I am a huge advocate of exceptional teachers making much more than they currently get paid, likewise non-performing teachers go on probation, salary reductions and if they can't perform, off with their heads. My oldest son is going to college to be a teacher and with him it is a passion as others. I am also one of those people who made nothing being in the military and worked for everything I have in life. My wife retired from the military after 24 years and her pension is no where near that of a public worker. The time has come to make an adjustment. The private sector has been adjusting for sometime and now it is time for the public sector. I am tired of supporting the non- performers! Pres, I can see how passionate you are about your wife and I am sure she is a great teacher. I would like to see her making more for her dedication, but I am sick of the unions within the public sector! Whew!!!
 
Boatingnut said:
It really boils down to this: The private sector is what pays for the public sector, and the private sector retains the right to decide how much they want to spend on it and what they want to spend it on. They retain the right to determine the quality of what it spends its money on.

Have to ask this question: If we pay a teacher $10k more a year, will we get smarter kids? Personally, I think we have hit the peak of the market in terms of pay, and now we realize that we are overpaying for certain public services. The amount of money that the private sector as put into public services is showing little increasing value.

And when the private sector is low on money, it will spend less on the public sector.

Simple.
Click to expand...

OK, I have to chime in, with complete respect of course. First, we as the private sector do not fully pay for all of these teachers. There are revenues that are brought in by tuition, for example universities, that this simply does not apply to. As all to often we are generalizing. Second, Mr. Walker has fallen off his boat since he has decided the "essential" groups do not fall into this category. If we are to give one of them $10,000 dollars more are we safer? The same would apply to a teacher. Both could purchase "tools" that would help them do their job, maybe "better". We need to take a look at where his campaign funds came from in this situation. Since I live in Wisconsin, I would love to see this piece of work recalled. I believe everyone, including my private sector self, would be happy to do whatever I could to close the gap. It's often about how you present something, he's received the award for "communication" in my opinion. For the record, I think all politicians are crooked you know what and should be booted out. Problem is, if they are in their position for more than 6 years we pay them forever, or maybe that's a place we should cut. Hmmm....this is fun isn't it.
 
Agree on the tuition for the universities, but that is not the bulk of what is at stake....

It is the local school districts all over the state that are at risk, and they do not have tuition. They have a diminishing property tax base that pays for the districts. And state funding is going to decrease. This is why the collective bargaining changes are critical to the entire state. Also, the evidence continues to show that throwing more money at education is no longer a wise investment. Fix the tenure problem, and take power away from the teachers unions and give it to the teachers and the districts, and I think you will see a better bang for our buck.

It is clear that Wisconsin cannot meet its obligations. Better to address this now.

And I hope they fire every state employee that skipped work for this.
 
Point well taken, except it is all the teachers that will be affected by this, not just the local school districts. I would be more inclined to feel the budget was not "political" if it was for all public sectors.

We have made tough decisions as well where I work, except, we involved the employees and had them as part of the solution rather than the problem. Worked pretty good, go figure.

As for firing the teachers who skipped work for this, let's fire all the politicians who feel it is their right to campaign on our tax dollars when they should be working. I agree, though, the teachers could have chosen a better method for their displeasure, but also understand their need for urgency when this bill was getting pushed through unusually fast.
 
You make a great point about involving employees in the process, which is exactly that the teachers unions will not allow. I think we can all agree that the unions do not have the teachers or students best interest in mind, which is providing the best education and working conditions we can.

How do you feel about the Dem Senator's fleeing the state? Apparently, there is no honor or dignity left. Absolutely a travesty. Leave for a day, make your point. Threaten to not show up for weeks...... Unacceptable.
 
jitts3 said:
It shows there is hope still. How do you know if your house has termites, and you treat it, that it was effective? They swarm for a bit, but eventually go away!
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A long time ago some really smart guy said" The price of liberty is eternal vigilance"...Maby we all need to watch a little closer going forward.....:thumbsup:
 
I agree gents, those who fled may have felt it was the right thing but I would disagree with them. Be there, stand up for what you believe in.

As for the union, once again it is a generalization, many of the university staff are not unionized.

D & R alike, there is a fundamental flaw in the system. I'm thinking Egypt may have the right idea. Kick em' all out and start fresh?
 
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