40 sedan bridge forum

[cwiert]

Narrowing down my search for a 400 Sedan Bridge and will be making a trip to step on board a few 2001 models in two weeks. One of them I will be looking at the broker already told me it has new canvas but the Isinglass probably has bout a year of life left. So I guess you can have just the IG replaced anybody know a approximate cost? I always figured you just replace canvas and all at one time? Also he told me the two captain chairs probably have about a year before they would need some attention. So can you get new covers from Sea Ray? Or what do most people do. Any idea what options and cost I need to plan for?

My $0.02, FWIW. If the dealer is telling you that the glass has about a year left, you can be assured it's completely shot right now. Same thing with the chairs. What concerns me the most is that the canvas is supposedly new, and the glass is old. Why would someone replace the canvas, and not the glass. I've heard of people doing it the other way around, but if you're doing the canvas, it would make sense to do the glass too. I wonder what else the owner skimped on. Again, just my first impression. As always, make sure you have a good surveyor. Good luck.

 

[mjmason1]

Has anyone replaced the cutting board over the sink? If so what did you use? I used a regular wood board and in less than a year it warped.

 

[ZZ13]

Has anyone replaced the cutting board over the sink? If so what did you use? I used a regular wood board and in less than a year it warped.

Mine sits in its holding spot under the stove and I have never used it (or even pulled it out of there). We have a cutting board we keep on the counter to the right of the sink for our cutting.

 

[scooper321]

Hi,

I'm not new to the forum but most of my boat-related posts have been over in the express cruiser threads (cue the boos...).

I'm just starting to think about moving up from my 320DA to a fly bridge. I've been looking at many flybridges (of many makes) and to no one in this group's surprise, the 400 Sedan Bridge is one of the top contenders. My budget will likely keep me in the 1998-2002'ish range (I strongly dislike the 1997 bridge layout).

I know from reading this thread, and others, that the ideal set up for this boat is probably diesels. But Sea Ray did make this boat with gas engines, too. From what I've seen most of them were 8.1's, but there are a few 7.4's out there, too. So my questions are posed towards those with gas engines. I'd like to know if you're happy with them in this boat? Specifically,

- What gas engines are you running?
- Do you find they are powerful "enough" to get you on plane and keep you there?
- What's your appox planing/cruising speed?
- What's your fuel burn rate (gph or mpg, either is helpful)

I'll say it again (to try and head off all the replies trying to convince me that diesels are a better choice) that I recognize from a torque standpoint, diesels are the better choice. But the cost of properly maintaining and repairing diesels worries me (and my checkbook). So I really want to understand how the gas engines perform. I know the gas engines won't go as far and won't get up to speed as quickly. But I'm not looking to win any speed races; I just don't want to putt putt everywhere at 8mph.

So, fuel costs, fill-up frequency and resale value aside, tell me about your experience with gas engines in the 400 SB....

Thanks,

 

[oceanpearl]

Hey Scooper,
I am in a gasser DB400 2001 with 7.4 Mercs as you can see from my profile. I've owned her since 2006 and we always get questioned, "NOT DIESELS". We've touched 1200 well maintained hours always in fresh water. The cruising speed is about 3500 RPM'S and the speed is about 20 miles per hour. Fuel burn at cruising speed will touch around $130.00 per hour however we never go that speed. We just completed a 50 hour cruise at average 10 MPH and our cost were around $30.00 per hour and burned around 8 US gallons/hr.
We can get on plane in around 20 seconds or so with the tabs down.
We know we have the speed if we need it and that's important.
You're correct in your cost maintenance estimate/ diesels versus gas.
I hope this info helps with you decision.
If you need any other info, please don't hesitate.
Good luck

 

[fwebster]

If you are in a salt water area, your assumption that gas engines are cheaper to maintain isn't correct.......by a long shot.

I owned a 7.4L powered boat for almost 10 years before selling it and buying a diesel boat. I don't buy boats to trade; I own them to use so I've owned my present boat for almost 20 years. When I consider the regular replacement of risers, manifolds, thermostat housings, timing covers, intake manifolds, plug wires, plugs, etc. plus the difference between 34-36 gph (of $3.95/gal fuel) and 20 gph (of off road diesel @ 2.35/gal) I am spending a fraction....like 1/5th....of the cost to own and run my diesel boat than I did the gas powered boat.

Consider the big picture......not just the cost of the boat.

 

[Keith the Cop]

Anyone try to pipe an AC vent to the bridge?

 

[fwebster]

There was a guy at our marina who knew all t he answers. He was convinced that running a duct to the bridge was all that was needed to get bridge air conditioning. All he accomplished was blowing some moderately cool air in the face of whomever was in front of the vent outlet. This was on a new 44DB and after being forced to do the calculations he discovered that he really needed about 24,000 BTU to cool the bridge due to all the heat gain from the black canvas and isinglass. His other issue was that the boat was spec'd for no bridge air so he didn't have enough generator capacity to cool the interior and the bridge simultaneously which means he has to turn off the larger cabin air unit when he runs the bridge air.

So in answer to your question, to do this right and not cause sacrifices elsewhere, it means a bigger generator, a 24K BTU air unit, an additional cooling pump and its sea cock and plumbing so it isn't a cheap project.

 

[importmonkey]

Anyone try to pipe an AC vent to the bridge?

I think I'd rather have it piped to the bilge so I don't sweat my balls off while I'm working and cleaning in there.

 

[scooper321]

Thanks Oceanpearl and fewebster,

f, you are right on a couple items. I do run in salt water (brackish water in the Chesapeake bay). But I don't think I'd ever have a non fresh water cooled engine here for many of the reasons you described. Even so, there's always SOME salt water going through, so FWC is not utopia. But I think that lowers the maintenance a good bit. Also, I applaud your longevity with boats. I buy cars that way. But with boats, I'm not just looking at initial cost of diesel vs gas boats, I'm thinking about maintenance (most of which I won't do myself. But I'll do more maintenance myself on a gasser than I would on a diesel). Someone has to keep a boat 20 years to amortize those costs into the fuel savings. For you, it works. But for the boat owner who uses the boat 100 hours a year, he'll never recoup that diff in fuel costs. And God forbid an engine needs an overhaul. Doing a diesel overhaul is the cost of a new car. I know in my case, that would cripple me and my boating. So from a strictly cash flow basis for a recreational boater like me, Im positive a gas engine boat would be cheaper to own and operate even if I'm filling up more often and at higher fuel costs.

Op, thanks for the numbers. I don't want to cruise at 10mph everywhere! Maybe 15mph, meaning $80 an hour? That's still pretty high. I wonder if the 8.1s would do better, given that they are more powerful, so they may require less rpm (and less fuel) for the same mph? That logic works for diesels! Ha ha.

But both of you: thanks. Id love to hear from some other gas owners too.


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[ttmott]

I would argue that the overall economics for diesel is on par or better than with the gasoline. The gasoline engine has it's required maintenance and is not necessarily cost friendly. I have a dedicated diesel mechanic maintain the engines and that probably averages about $2000 per year; a pair of injected 7.4's or 8.1's will be that. The mechanic takes the oil samples, checks the injection system and every five years goes through the cooling system, aftercoolers, pulls and checks the turbos amongst a list of other items. With that said I do my own oil changes, zinc replacement, fuel system management, drive belt maintenance, and impeller changes. I can tell you assuredly that I get 1 MPG at 22 knots on calm water and the same boat with gas power is not in the same ballpark. I run the boat to the Bahamas from the east central coast of Florida three times a year to give you an idea of how much it is used and the basis for data. There is a lot to be said about loping a diesel motor at 2200 RPM vs a gasoline motor at 3800 RPM to achieve the same speed with respect to engine longevity. Other tangible things that help lean to diesel power are insurance is typically cheaper, it is a much safer boat to operate, minimal concerns with carbon monoxide, resale value is higher (albeit going in cost is higher), maneuvering authority is much better, and benefits from the higher torque can't be over exaggerated. Lastly, at least around here, diesel is cheaper than gasoline at the marinas.

 

[ZZ13]

Good luck Steve. However, I don't really understand your reasoning that you'd be able to do more of the maintenance on gassers than diesels. I had twin gassers on my previous boat and maintaining these diesels is a piece of cake compared to those gassers. There was stuff I wouldn't/couldn't do on the gas engines. I do everything myself with the diesels. Annually I change the oil/filter, change the coolant filter, change the transmission oil, change the Racor filters, change the secondary fuel filter, Every 2-3 years I change the impellers and tear down/clean/reassemble the cooling system. Its all so easy. And the cost if you do it yourself is very minimal. I take 6 gallons per engine of oil - $150. Six filters (2 oil, 2 fuel, 2 coolant) are about $100. Four new Racor filters are about $50 total. Two new impellers are about $150 total. Four new aftercooler o-rings are about $50. Pressure testing and having a shop clean heat exchangers is about $100 for both, but even that can be done yourself. So, the annual stuff is about $300 in materials and the semi-annual stuff is about $350 every two-three years.

 

[scooper321]

My $0.02, FWIW. If the dealer is telling you that the glass has about a year left, you can be assured it's completely shot right now. Same thing with the chairs. What concerns me the most is that the canvas is supposedly new, and the glass is old. Why would someone replace the canvas, and not the glass. I've heard of people doing it the other way around, but if you're doing the canvas, it would make sense to do the glass too. I wonder what else the owner skimped on. Again, just my first impression. As always, make sure you have a good surveyor. Good luck.

My two cents: thank the dealer and make up your own mind also. If it's a 2001 and its original canvas, the canvas may not be worth putting new glass into. Even if it's not new glass, it might not be worth it. Would you really want to drop a couple Gs on new glass into faded canvas? I just did full canvas on my 320DA for about $4k. But that was full custom, not the OEM replacement which was about 2/3 that. I'd expect yours to be a bit higher for a full fly bridge.

Yes, you can get the glass only repaired at a local canvas shop. Most of them will match and replace vinyl for your seats too. Perhaps you can even get a custom look for them?



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[scooper321]

Good luck Steve. However, I don't really understand your reasoning that you'd be able to do more of the maintenance on gassers than diesels. I had twin gassers on my previous boat and maintaining these diesels is a piece of cake compared to those gassers. There was stuff I wouldn't/couldn't do on the gas engines. I do everything myself with the diesels. Annually I change the oil/filter, change the coolant filter, change the transmission oil, change the Racor filters, change the secondary fuel filter, Every 2-3 years I change the impellers and tear down/clean/reassemble the cooling system. Its all so easy. And the cost if you do it yourself is very minimal. I take 6 gallons per engine of oil - $150. Six filters (2 oil, 2 fuel, 2 coolant) are about $100. Four new Racor filters are about $50 total. Two new impellers are about $150 total. Four new aftercooler o-rings are about $50. Pressure testing and having a shop clean heat exchangers is about $100 for both, but even that can be done yourself. So, the annual stuff is about $300 in materials and the semi-annual stuff is about $350 every two-three years.

Ha! Well, that comment was because I've worked on gasses before (in cars) and I know nothing about diesels! So while I would probably learn them if I had diesels, at least at the beginning I wouldn't be doing much work myself. And truth be told, while I can climb around an engine room, I don't like doing it. And I'm always stressed about making a mess in the bilge. Which is why I usually have someone else do the work!



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[ZZ13]

Ha! Well, that comment was because I've worked on gasses before (in cars) and I know nothing about diesels! So while I would probably learn them if I had diesels, at least at the beginning I wouldn't be doing much work myself. And truth be told, while I can climb around an engine room, I don't like doing it. And I'm always stressed about making a mess in the bilge. Which is why I usually have someone else do the work!



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Roger that. We are not trying to talk you out of what you want. Just giving you data in case it might help you.


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[scooper321]

Roger that. We are not trying to talk you out of what you want. Just giving you data in case it might help you.


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and I appreciate it! I guess the potential cash risks of diesels are intimidating. So I'm trying to justify that gas will work. Ha ha.

So I haven't been in the ER in a 400. How accessible are the engines? Diesel and gas alike? Are there a lot of acrobatics required for general maintenance?

 

[JVM225]

I think you need to look beyond the dollars and cents for the right answer. Arguments can be made on both sides of that issue, especially if you don't put hundreds of hours a year on your boat.
Annual cost of ownership is important, but not the only factor to consider.
Selection, overall condition of an individual boat, and future marketability are all important too.
I'm looking for a bigger boat now. The reason we decided to get a bigger boat is that we want something with a separate shower stall. Extra space is going to be nice, but we really don't need much more than it takes to get the separate shower, so we aren't looking to go too big.
I typically put about 50 hours a year on my boat, do the majority of the maintenance myself, and although I have no experience with diesels, I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to continue to do so with them if I wind up with a diesel powered boat.
My first target is an 03-04 380 Sundancer. 99% of them have the 8.1's and the boat performs fine with them. The 1% that have the diesels are probably more appealing, but the choices of boats with diesels is severely limited and the prices are much higher for these rare birds. The two I've looked at with diesels were otherwise pretty ratty boats.
Bottom line: If I get one of these boats it will probably be a gasser, and I'm fine with that.
My other choice of boat is an 01-02 410 Sundancer. The majority of these boats came with diesels, so that is where I will get the biggest selection from. I've seen a couple with gas engines, and although I'm buying the boat for myself and not for the next guy, I'd still like to know that if and when I decide to sell I have something that is more marketable. Unfortunately, the gas powered boats in this class are not all that appealing to the majority of people looking for that model, and although I haven't been out on a gas 410, I have been on a gas 380 and my gut feeling is that the 410 would be straining a bit with gas engines.
Honestly, If I were looking at 400 Sedan Bridge boats, I would probably be looking for one with diesels because it would likely perform better, I'd have more to choose from, and it would be more marketable when it was time to move on.

 

[fwebster]

Thanks Oceanpearl and fewebster,

f, you are right on a couple items. I do run in salt water (brackish water in the Chesapeake bay). But I don't think I'd ever have a non fresh water cooled engine here for many of the reasons you described. Even so, there's always SOME salt water going through, so FWC is not utopia. But I think that lowers the maintenance a good bit. Also, I applaud your longevity with boats. I buy cars that way. But with boats, I'm not just looking at initial cost of diesel vs gas boats, I'm thinking about maintenance (most of which I won't do myself. But I'll do more maintenance myself on a gasser than I would on a diesel). Someone has to keep a boat 20 years to amortize those costs into the fuel savings. For you, it works. But for the boat owner who uses the boat 100 hours a year, he'll never recoup that diff in fuel costs. And God forbid an engine needs an overhaul. Doing a diesel overhaul is the cost of a new car. I know in my case, that would cripple me and my boating. So from a strictly cash flow basis for a recreational boater like me, Im positive a gas engine boat would be cheaper to own and operate even if I'm filling up more often and at higher fuel costs.



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Steve,

Just to clarify a couple of points you mentioned............

On the salt water question, it isn't t he water that runs thru the engine's cooling system that "get" engines, it is the fact that the exhaust system is open to ambient air all the time. It is that high humidity air from inches off the water that is laying in your engine all the way up the exhaust passages up to the engine head that rots risers and manifolds. They rust from the exhaust passage into the cooling jackets; not from the cooling jacket out. In 10 years with a 390EC on the Gulf Coast, I replaced risers 4 times and manifolds twice at several thousand $$ a pop. My Cat diesels have bronze elbows and are perfect after 20 years in the same slip.

Maintenance cost - regular maintenance on gas engines involves oil changes, filter changes, replacing plugs, replacing ignition wires, replacing risers and manifolds, etc. On diesels, maintenance is mostly oil changes, filter changes, an impellers every 2-300 hours. If you can lug 5 gallon pails of oil to the boat, you can do the maintenance.

When looking at the gas vs. diesel question, people frequently overlook the quality of investment part of the equation. Diesel boats may cost more on the front end, but you almost always get that money back on the back end when you sell or trade because diesels don't depreciate nearly as much or as fast as gas boats do. In the meantime, you get to enjoy a better handling boat, safer operation and the fuel economy.


Good luck with whatever you decide.........

 

[a6fan1127]

Has anybody pulled the captains chairs out of the bridge? I want to leave the bases in place - just take off the chair and sliding/swivel mechanisms. Having Infinity put in and don't want seams.

 

[cwiert]

Has anybody pulled the captains chairs out of the bridge? I want to leave the bases in place - just take off the chair and sliding/swivel mechanisms. Having Infinity put in and don't want seams.

Yes. They slide right off.