The Official 450 Express Bridge Owners Club

[Skybolt]

Let's not forget that the SMX takes care of linearizing the temperature senders for their display; that's a plus.... What I don't know if that linearization passes through to the NMEA 2000 network... I guess it must to be compliant with the PGN formats.

Their most likely just calibrating to one sensor type/model/part number, so all models sold have that one curve in it. But yes, that is not a small task as we know.

But yes the temp linearization passes through, it has too or as you state, the PGN format would be off if it didn't.

 

[Forrestkk]

Let's not forget that the SMX takes care of linearizing the temperature senders for their display; that's a plus.... What I don't know if that linearization passes through to the NMEA 2000 network... I guess it must to be compliant with the PGN formats.

SMBAR got right back to me, basically, it will work with regular-shaped tanks. Looks like I can make it work, but it won't shape the inputs for my irregular-shaped tank. Will allow me to get completely away from analog, but still have to "know" my fuel state rather than letting the chart plotters do the math.

@ttmott and @SKybolt thank you both for all the info. Need to do some research on all the great inputs you both gave. I'll be honest, I am not a "perfect" solution purist, but more of an 80/20 guy . I'm looking for reasonable effort/cost with maximum output. I am interested in doing some cost vs. benefit between the systems.

@SKybolt , completely agree...nothing is plug and play and it almost never goes as planned...

 

[Skybolt]

SMBAR got right back to me, basically, it will work with regular-shaped tanks. Looks like I can make it work, but it won't shape the inputs for my irregular-shaped tank. Will allow me to get completely away from analog, but still have to "know" my fuel state rather than letting the chart plotters do the math. ...

Maretron does support irregular tanks and their TLM100's plug directly into the N2K backbone. If you call them they will program them for you as well. You don't need anything except some sort of NMEA 2000 display (Most if not all MFD's) to view the tank levels on. If you use their DSM410 that will display remaining fuel in each tank and total remaining fuel. Their DSM410 does a real nice job of creating a custom display for just about anything you want to display on an N2K display. You also look at the Garmin GMI20 as well.

 

[SR450EB Captain]

...huge bummer.

YES SO SAD TO SEE THIS! Glad all are safe!

 

[ttmott]

SMBAR got right back to me, basically, it will work with regular-shaped tanks. Looks like I can make it work, but it won't shape the inputs for my irregular-shaped tank. Will allow me to get completely away from analog, but still have to "know" my fuel state rather than letting the chart plotters do the math.

@ttmott and @SKybolt thank you both for all the info. Need to do some research on all the great inputs you both gave. I'll be honest, I am not a "perfect" solution purist, but more of an 80/20 guy . I'm looking for reasonable effort/cost with maximum output. I am interested in doing some cost vs. benefit between the systems.

@SKybolt , completely agree...nothing is plug and play and it almost never goes as planned...

The down side and what I had thought (probably in error) you wanted to do fuel budgeting and mileage tracking as the SMX will not support quantity in gallons, fuel remaining in units, and integration with your GPS speed and position. But if all you need on a display is fuel level possibly they can help. Hopefully I didn't dirt road you too much.

 

[Shoyrtt]

hello all

I have been working a deal on a clean 2001 sear ray 450 eb 430 hp cummins mtrs with 750 hours for a few months
(previous owner died a few months ago is the reason it's being sold) we have been waiting on a rebuilt turbo to be installed. thats done now and I was told they took the boat out and she ran good a week go. I went down yesterday to start engines for myself. both mtr's were bellowing out white smoke with the smell of fuel in the air, I killed the mtrs after a couple of minutes. the mtrs felt rough and shook the boat at anything above an idle. temp was 70 degrees but it got down in the upper 40's the night before so engine room was probably lower than the 70 I was feeling top side. I have seen both mtrs running for a short period at warmer temps a month or so ago and did not see any smoke even on start up. MOST everything I read last night leads me to believe the air temp being cooler now is the cause of the white smoke issue. unburned fuel from intake air being cooler than what these mtrs are looking for. I am told that in 2001 430hp cummins are mechanical injection which is simpler to deal with than the later models mtrs. I am more than a little concerned about this amount of smoke and that it was still coming out after a couple of minutes. I know from what I have read that the newer electronic versions have way to heat up the intake air to cure this problem. I dont think myself , my very nice neighbors or my wife is going to be thrilled about the Odor or the smoke on our 1 sided almost enclosed boathouse with not much air flowing through there.
I got to admit the extra cost to maintain these mtr already had me concerned. the boat was mobed here 2-3 years ago from Houston spending most of its life near the coast but I have not seen the usual corrosion from salt the I expected to find. window frames , metal pieces ect. look good I do see some rust on mtr mounts for have not looked to closely as a a big guy and engine compartment is kinda tight for me to get around in.
I have over 30 years experience with big boats but all have been big block chevy mtrs until this one.

pleae help me out here with your opinions

thanks Ken In Dallas

Ken,
I take it this is the boat you have a contract on?
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2001-sea-ray-450-express-bridge-7992886/

Who do you have doing the engine surveys? I would look into bringing someone up from Dallas to go through them.

 

[Forrestkk]

The down side and what I had thought (probably in error) you wanted to do fuel budgeting and mileage tracking as the SMX will not support quantity in gallons, fuel remaining in units, and integration with your GPS speed and position. But if all you need on a display is fuel level possibly they can help. Hopefully I didn't dirt road you too much.

@ttmott not at all...may go a different route. I'm comfortable with manual fuel planning but it wouldn't hurt to have it all it integrated. Just depends on cost and effort!

 

[Kenblacks]

Ken,
I take it this is the boat you have a contract on?
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2001-sea-ray-450-express-bridge-7992886/
View attachment 114811
Who do you have doing the engine surveys? I would look into bringing someone up from Dallas to go through them.

I have contacted a couple of diesel guys one at cat $2133 other at cummins closer to $3500 . just trying to do my own inspections & get my head wrapped around this thing before dropping $1000 boat surveyor & another 2500-3500 with diesel inspectors.

I think it's money well spent if I proceed.

 

[Shoyrtt]

I have contacted a couple of diesel guys one at cat $2133 other at cummins closer to $3500 . just trying to do my own inspections & get my head wrapped around this thing before dropping $1000 boat surveyor & another 2500-3500 with diesel inspectors.

I think it's money well spent if I proceed.

Which brand of generator does it have? Do you know if the engine surveyors are also including the oil analysis fee in the total cost? $3,500 seems a little high to me. I paid a little over $1,000 on for my Cats and Westerbeke 8.0 in July of 2020, including the oil analysis. Maybe it was a Covid discount.???
I wonder if this shop "Leading Edge Marine" has a reputable surveyor: https://texomaconnect.com/lake-texoma-travel-guide/leading-edge-marine/
It is worth the money to have the samples sent out to get the complete picture on those engines and the gen set. I know my neighbor has those Cummins engines on his Meridian 411 and they smoke a little on a cold start. I think it is normal.

 

[ttmott]

@ttmott not at all...may go a different route. I'm comfortable with manual fuel planning but it wouldn't hurt to have it all it integrated. Just depends on cost and effort!

Any way you decide it is a lot of work from an installation perspective; however I would say that having everything on a NMEA 2000 backbone running through the boat would be much less work; both engines can interface with a single NMEA 2000 cable from the engine room to the helm. The SMX not so; two large wire harness' to route with zero growth capability.
From a growth perspective or adds to the system as finance permits then definitely the NMEA data system is the right choice. In my engine room for example I started with converting the SR Systems Monitor data to NMEA 2000 then added the generator's data then trim tabs then water tank level then waste tank level and currently the interface to the Garmin Autopilot system; all on a single NMEA 2000 backbone cable - more later definitely. Throughout the boat the NMEA 2000 backbone has been the center of modernization as the audio system is now controlled from the NMEA backbone as well as system alarm annunciators located throughout the boat and a data display in the power panel not to mention full helm integration. As my boat is a bit newer than yours my fuel tank levels are on the Mercury Smartcraft network and display/integrate on the Mercury Vessel View system which gets it all on the NMEA 2000 backbone so I have those fuel budgeting features already.
Everything you want to do and so much more as a growth perspective can be accomplished on a NMEA 2000 network for what I think much less cost and effort as @SKybolt alludes.
Consider also when a component or piece fails; is it serviceable or easily replaced? Not to discredit the SMX but if you have it customized it then becomes a one-off device and four or five years down the road can it be repaired or replaced?
Even though a lot of time is spent configuring devices on a NMEA 2000 network replacing a failed device is very easy and as close to plug and play as we could ask for (a single standardized connector). Just make sure your configurations are documented or backed up so the replacement device can be configured. As an example my boat was involved in a lightning strike and it took out everything electrical, everything including 26 NMEA 2000 devices. They purchased the devices had them all installed in a couple of hours and I had them all configured and up and running in less than a half a day.
Lastly, the SMX requires two independent systems and consequently two independent displays; the NMEA based system can have as many displays as you desire or all integrated onto a single display or your MFD's that you set up as you desire to view the data. I just think you get so much more moving to a NMEA 2000 based system with less effort and less cost......

 

[Forrestkk]

Cockpit floor repair day 1

So, knew we had a soft spot to starboard of the engine room hinge based on our inspection (and our feet). Actually had the ER door rip out due to the rot this summer (temp repaired with marine tex). After a two month wait, the fiberglass and gel coat guy came today. I am also having about 7 spots on the boat touched up at the same time, but that isn't very interesting.

They cut a big hole in my cockpit floor and found that there was a thin spot that ended up as hole from the factory. Buckets are holding weight on the patch, which is fuso(sp) board and fiberglass and they reinforced the hinge with fiberglass and resin. Will end up having the whole cockpit gelcoated and they are going to remove the epoxy I spilled rebedding the cockpit doors. Pretty sure that hole has been one of my water intrusion issues and not sure if the hole was the culprit for the soft spot or the hinge.

Shot from dock

Shot from port cockpit

Shot of thin glass from factory and hole towards the forward portion

 

[Forrestkk]

Cockpit floor repair day 1

So, knew we had a soft spot to starboard of the engine room hinge based on our inspection (and our feet). Actually had the ER door rip out due to the rot this summer (temp repaired with marine tex). After a two month wait, the fiberglass and gel coat guy came today. I am also having about 7 spots on the boat touched up at the same time, but that isn't very interesting.

They cut a big hole in my cockpit floor and found that there was a thin spot that ended up as hole from the factory. Buckets are holding weight on the patch, which is fuso(sp) board and fiberglass and they reinforced the hinge with fiberglass and resin. Will end up having the whole cockpit gelcoated and they are going to remove the epoxy I spilled rebedding the cockpit doors. Pretty sure that hole has been one of my water intrusion issues and not sure if the hole was the culprit for the soft spot or the hinge.

Shot from dock
View attachment 114856

Shot from port cockpit
View attachment 114857

Shot of thin glass from factory and hole towards the forward portion

View attachment 114858

Cockpit floor repair day 2

 

[Shoyrtt]

Cockpit floor repair day 2

View attachment 114899 View attachment 114900

Looking good!

 

[Forrestkk]

Cockpit floor repair day 2

View attachment 114899 View attachment 114900

Cockpit floor repair day 3

 

[Jack O'Brien]

So, I wanted to try and calculate the affect of the inboard side of the fuel tanks being slanted on my fuel gauge readings. Not being close to the boat at the moment, I just drew an estimated tank which is geometrically a "right trapezoid" shape. Volume of my experimental paper tank is very close at 26.667 cuft while 200 gallons takes up 26.7361 cuft. I was surprised that the tank slanted side didn't render even more error. For example 1/4 tank on the gauge would actually be 57.5 gallons. I'm pretty sure that topping off my tank from 1/4 gauge level would only take 100 gallons or so (not 150). Thus, the Maletron adapter was recommended. I just don't like the procedure required to program it (empty tank, fill incrementally while programming the adapter). Also assumes my resistance fuel senders are actually in good condition. Headspace above them is tiny. Not sure they could be removed, inspected or replaced.

 

[Jack O'Brien]

Cockpit floor repair day 2

View attachment 114899 View attachment 114900

Interesting as I seem to have a depression in the deck in this exact area. Not noticeable by sight but definitely when I walk on it.

 

[Forrestkk]

So, I wanted to try and calculate the affect of the inboard side of the fuel tanks being slanted on my fuel gauge readings. Not being close to the boat at the moment, I just drew an estimated tank which is geometrically a "right trapezoid" shape. Volume of my experimental paper tank is very close at 26.667 cuft while 200 gallons takes up 26.7361 cuft. I was surprised that the tank slanted side didn't render even more error. For example 1/4 tank on the gauge would actually be 57.5 gallons. I'm pretty sure that topping off my tank from 1/4 gauge level would only take 100 gallons or so (not 150). Thus, the Maletron adapter was recommended. I just don't like the procedure required to program it (empty tank, fill incrementally while programming the adapter). Also assumes my resistance fuel senders are actually in good condition. Headspace above them is tiny. Not sure they could be removed, inspected or replaced.View attachment 114977

Seems like the empty to full is about the only way to calibrate, even if you don't do Maretron.

Agreed, not much headspace, but there must be a way to get them out. I wonder if they are the float type or the tube type senders? If they are the floats, it should be doable. If they are the tubes, that will be more difficult.

 

[Forrestkk]

Interesting as I seem to have a depression in the deck in this exact area. Not noticeable by sight but definitely when I walk on it.

As you can see on mine, pretty bad rot developed. Most of the water seemed to come in from the ER door hinge which was poorly sealed. Eventually, the gas struts had enough force to pull the screws out of the rotted wood. If you knock with the handle of a hard plastic screwdriver it will be clear when/if the sound goes from crisp to dull if you have a soft spot.

 

[Jack O'Brien]

Seems like the empty to full is about the only way to calibrate, even if you don't do Maretron.

Agreed, not much headspace, but there must be a way to get them out. I wonder if they are the float type or the tube type senders? If they are the floats, it should be doable. If they are the tubes, that will be more difficult.

Don't know tube or float but I suspect float. They are Rochester ADJ 14.5" x 13.5' from parts manual. I think float. Saw a youtube on exposing access to the sender by removing the inside of a deck cabinet floorboard. Not our boat model but made me think to look next week. Port side I think is under the bridge steps. Stbd maybe under one of two cabinets. Not even sure I need to remove or replace the senders. They both work. Just very inaccurate.

 

[Forrestkk]

Don't know tube or float but I suspect float. They are Rochester ADJ 14.5" x 13.5' from parts manual. I think float. Saw a youtube on exposing access to the sender by removing the inside of a deck cabinet floorboard. Not our boat model but made me think to look next week. Port side I think is under the bridge steps. Stbd maybe under one of two cabinets. Not even sure I need to remove or replace the senders. They both work. Just very inaccurate.

I'll be honest, I've gotten used to mine. I know they aren't accurate in the sense that 1/2 tank isn't 100 gallons left, but I've not ever felt like I was going to run out of fuel, except for the first time I ran them that low and discovered a lot of fuel left. The only draw back is having to do manual fuel calculations on long trips vs. letting the chartplotter so that work.

I do want to get to a digital readout, but that is more for the other guages and having more granularity on the fuel guages would be a bonus. For sure, if a sender went out I would replace both with Maretron and start down the road ttmott and skybolt mentioned. They've got me leaning away from SMX, but the Maretron seems like a project. It may be easier once I see the hardware architecture.