The Official 450 Express Bridge Owners Club

[Shoyrtt]

RE water heater leaks, I think I've mentioned this before, but just in case.....For the water heater compartment (and the salon sump floor compartment), get a water alarm from Lowes Depot. They are used for under laundry sinks, washer/dryer areas, etc at home. They go off if there is any water on the floor. They are battery powered and easy to install. i did not like the idea of a water leak down there and not know it until it became a major problem. This has saved me two water heaters (when that area floods it can hold 50-75 gal of water before the water heater floods and trips the breaker, and if you see water down there, turn off the water heater before you do the fresh/salt water thing). Easy, cheap, and a big payback in sleeping better at night, on or off the boat.

FYI, I thought about using regular float switches for this this, but they allow too much water in before they turn on. These alarms go off if any water in there.

Another great suggestion Larry! I picked one up this morning. Heading to the boat now for the long weekend!

 

[ENstig8or]

That sump has been the bane of my existence! Agreed, the SeaRay engineers had to purposely put it there to make it hard to service. There is absolutely no reason it has to be shoved so far back out of reach. Every year or 2, I have to replace the damn float switch too. I did learn to use the Rule super switch rather than the regular one it came outfitted with. The regular one would die twice a season. Make sure the seal is good around the top because if you don't have a good seal, especially towards the rear it will overflow while underway and drain back towards your utility room. That's why you want those rear screws in there and tight. I also replaced that seal with a thicker one and haven't had a leak since. The first time I had to service that thing I got stuck head first in there with my legs sticking out. Thank God my GF was on the boat because she had to pull me out by my feet.

 

[Shoyrtt]

That sump has been the bane of my existence! Agreed, the SeaRay engineers had to purposely put it there to make it hard to service. There is absolutely no reason it has to be shoved so far back out of reach. Every year or 2, I have to replace the damn float switch too. I did learn to use the Rule super switch rather than the regular one it came outfitted with. The regular one would die twice a season. Make sure the seal is good around the top because if you don't have a good seal, especially towards the rear it will overflow while underway and drain back towards your utility room. That's why you want those rear screws in there and tight. I also replaced that seal with a thicker one and haven't had a leak since. The first time I had to service that thing I got stuck head first in there with my legs sticking out. Thank God my GF was on the boat because she had to pull me out by my feet.

I’m glad I’m not alone! I still have no clue how you get a bolt or even a zip tie in the starboard side rear/stern? Maybe I’m too big to squeeze in there at 6’2”, 220. I need Larry and his wife to come to CA to help me out!

No worries at all out here on the island.
Off the stern and the bow in Cherry Cove. Have a great holiday weekend!

 

[Shoyrtt]

So lets talk about bimini tops for the cockpit. Of course Sea Ray did not offer a bimini top as an option for the 450 EB, so every one I have seen online or in person have all been a little different. The bimini top on my 21' ski boat is easily raised and lowered but the tops I have seen on the 450 all seem to be fairly permanent. For us, sometimes it is nice to get a little sun back there, while at other times the heat can get intense.
So while I'm on the fence about having a custom bimini top made, I decided to improvise a bit this past weekend using the rod holders on the port and starboard sides of the cockpit. I picked up two rectangular patio umbrellas with 1.5" poles that tilt. Now while the center of the cockpit still gets sun, the sides are shaded very well.
If you have the full bimini top, can you show me your set up and let me know if you like it or if you would make any changes. I'm guessing I will probably keep the umbrellas going for the rest of this season and if we decide on having a bimini top made, wait until the winter to start the process. Here they are in the packed Memorial Day weekend crowd in Avalon harbor. Thanks

 

[Forrestkk]

So lets talk about bimini tops for the cockpit. Of course Sea Ray did not offer a bimini top as an option for the 450 EB, so every one I have seen online or in person have all been a little different. The bimini top on my 21' ski boat is easily raised and lowered but the tops I have seen on the 450 all seem to be fairly permanent. For us, sometimes it is nice to get a little sun back there, while at other times the heat can get intense.
So while I'm on the fence about having a custom bimini top made, I decided to improvise a bit this past weekend using the rod holders on the port and starboard sides of the cockpit. I picked up two rectangular patio umbrellas with 1.5" poles that tilt. Now while the center of the cockpit still gets sun, the sides are shaded very well.
If you have the full bimini top, can you show me your set up and let me know if you like it or if you would make any changes. I'm guessing I will probably keep the umbrellas going for the rest of this season and if we decide on having a bimini top made, wait until the winter to start the process. Here they are in the packed Memorial Day weekend crowd in Avalon harbor. Thanks
View attachment 106441

View attachment 106442

Well, we don't "have ours yet" but this is the one we are getting this weekend (fingers crossed). The previous owner swears by this setup, especially when the sun is shining in the sliding door. For some reason I can't upload images (am I already at my limit?), but here is the link. - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1STZOr3u8HHu2fLK5D9Fsmx9O5kC1XlKJ/view?usp=drivesdk

This is not permanent, and not for use underway.

 

[Shoyrtt]

Well, we don't "have ours yet" but this is the one we are getting this weekend (fingers crossed). The previous owner swears by this setup, especially when the sun is shining in the sliding door. For some reason I can't upload images (am I already at my limit?), but here is the link. - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1STZOr3u8HHu2fLK5D9Fsmx9O5kC1XlKJ/view?usp=drivesdk

This is not permanent, and not for use underway.

Hopefully you take delivery this weekend! I don't think there is a picture limit if you are a site sponsor, otherwise I would have been in trouble a long time ago. When you get the boat, I'm interested in how that top deals with the stairs to the flybridge. Maybe try posting a picture again.

 

[LMBoat]

Very interested in this topic. Here is So. FL the sun/heat can be brutal. I did rig up something just to help on engine maintenance days ($30 camping tarp, some bungy cords and boat hooks). Far from elegant, but does the job. I would like to have something better. Do these interfere with your vision of the stern while docking?

Following.......

 

[Chief Ed]

So lets talk about bimini tops for the cockpit. Of course Sea Ray did not offer a bimini top as an option for the 450 EB, so every one I have seen online or in person have all been a little different. The bimini top on my 21' ski boat is easily raised and lowered but the tops I have seen on the 450 all seem to be fairly permanent. For us, sometimes it is nice to get a little sun back there, while at other times the heat can get intense.
So while I'm on the fence about having a custom bimini top made, I decided to improvise a bit this past weekend using the rod holders on the port and starboard sides of the cockpit. I picked up two rectangular patio umbrellas with 1.5" poles that tilt. Now while the center of the cockpit still gets sun, the sides are shaded very well.
If you have the full bimini top, can you show me your set up and let me know if you like it or if you would make any changes. I'm guessing I will probably keep the umbrellas going for the rest of this season and if we decide on having a bimini top made, wait until the winter to start the process. Here they are in the packed Memorial Day weekend crowd in Avalon harbor. Thanks
View attachment 106441

View attachment 106442

Hey Jim,

We saw you guys in Avalon on Sunday (or Monday). We spent five days there (Ball #147). Your boat is looking good...

Came back home yesterday, and back to the grind today. Can’t wait to get back...


Ed

 

[Shoyrtt]

Hey Jim,

We saw you guys in Avalon on Sunday (or Monday). We spent five days there (Ball #147). Your boat is looking good...

Came back home yesterday, and back to the grind today. Can’t wait to get back...


Ed

Hey Ed! We tried to get in on Friday but it was packed. We ended up in Cherry Cove Friday and Saturday nights until some spots opened up and we were able to grab #197 on Sunday around 11. I'm sorry I missed you. We are heading in your direction July 14th to meet our friends at Kona Kai marina. The plan is to spend the weekend in Ensenada.

 

[Forrestkk]

Well, I think this weekend is a go!

I bought three watch dogs, thanks @LMBoat

So, here is a question as a follow up to my earlier trip questions. Looking at the forecasts, the eastern and north eastern gulf will be calm seas and all following winds (of course, forecasts can get me in trouble). I have a neighbor friend going with me who is a sail guy who has made the crossing several times. He is pushing me to make one big leap from Clearwater to Destin (home). We have diverts at Carabelle, Apilachicola, Port St Joe, and Panama City. If we go for the long haul, it will be about 260 miles. I have run the numbers over and over, and at at 19 knots and 26 GPH it is 355 gallons. If I dont run the generator, we would get home with better than 10% left in tanks. If it isn't looking good, the course takes us right by Port St Joe which is 4 hours closer. (104 gallons closer). The risk is pretty low with the ability to stop, but curious if waking up super on Sunday is worth trying to make a 13.75 hours leg?

What is the farthest any of you have gone?

 

[LMBoat]

I'll make a few comments FWIW. While you have 400 gal tanks, your useable fuel is about 380 gal, maybe less (dip tubes don't empty the tanks completely). And you're assuming you can put 400 gals in. You may not be able to fill the tanks completely due to tank angles, position on fill/vent hoses, etc.

And I'm not sure where you got your fuel burn numbers/speed numbers, but these can change dramatically with wind, current, and unforeseen storms. And you will burn a ton more fuel in the beginning of the trip loaded with 3,000 lbs of diesel. Your avg fuel burn for the whole trip could be a lot less. You might look at MPG at your worse fuel burn and see how far that gets you. My worst is about 0.6 miles per gal. Assuming 380 gal of useable fuel, that only gets me 228 miles.

My farthest trips have been 100 miles in distance, and 8 hours in time. That's about as far as I want to go in a day. I want to enjoy the trip. Running a boat for a long period of time, with your head on a swivel, navigating, checking gauges, weather, ER checks, etc., can take a lot of you.

I have a tendency to be very conservative in my trip planning. You may be different. And I would suggest not letting anyone push you to do something on your boat you are not 100% comfortable with. The voice inside your head will be right.

And this is your first big trip with this boat? Another reason to be conservative. And keep an eye on your saltwater cooling hoses, especially in/out of the fuel coolers. The will balloon up when getting ready to fail.

Plenty of spares? Hoses, clamps, oil, fuel filters, impellers, tools, etc.?

You are welcome on the Watch Dogs.

Good luck!

 

[Chief Ed]

Hey Ed! We tried to get in on Friday but it was packed. We ended up in Cherry Cove Friday and Saturday nights until some spots opened up and we were able to grab #197 on Sunday around 11. I'm sorry I missed you. We are heading in your direction July 14th to meet our friends at Kona Kai marina. The plan is to spend the weekend in Ensenada.

Hey Jim,

That’s where we’re parked. Did you get a guest slip here?

Got some on-shore plans that weekend, but we’ll be around the boat during the week. Have to hook up then...


Ed

 

[Forrestkk]

I'll make a few comments FWIW. While you have 400 gal tanks, your useable fuel is about 380 gal, maybe less (dip tubes don't empty the tanks completely). And you're assuming you can put 400 gals in. You may not be able to fill the tanks completely due to tank angles, position on fill/vent hoses, etc.

And I'm not sure where you got your fuel burn numbers/speed numbers, but these can change dramatically with wind, current, and unforeseen storms. And you will burn a ton more fuel in the beginning of the trip loaded with 3,000 lbs of diesel. Your avg fuel burn for the whole trip could be a lot less. You might look at MPG at your worse fuel burn and see how far that gets you. My worst is about 0.6 miles per gal. Assuming 380 gal of useable fuel, that only gets me 228 miles.

My farthest trips have been 100 miles in distance, and 8 hours in time. That's about as far as I want to go in a day. I want to enjoy the trip. Running a boat for a long period of time, with your head on a swivel, navigating, checking gauges, weather, ER checks, etc., can take a lot of you.

I have a tendency to be very conservative in my trip planning. You may be different. And I would suggest not letting anyone push you to do something on your boat you are not 100% comfortable with. The voice inside your head will be right.

And this is your first big trip with this boat? Another reason to be conservative. And keep an eye on your saltwater cooling hoses, especially in/out of the fuel coolers. The will balloon up when getting ready to fail.

Plenty of spares? Hoses, clamps, oil, fuel filters, impellers, tools, etc.?

You are welcome on the Watch Dogs.

Good luck!

@LMBoat good info! Thx! Wasn't tracking on the last 10 gallons in each tank being unusable. Also, good info on not getting the full 400, and there is no real way to tell if you can actually get all 400 without pumping them dry and refilling them. This probably makes my decision for me, if I can't count on 400, then we are going to lay up at Port St Joe.

Fuel burns came from Cummins fuel charts against RPM. Good point on less MPG during full load, but often that is balanced with increased MPGs as the boat gets lighter. My intent was to set an RPM and accept a lower ground speed upfront in exchange for a higher ground speed on the backend. These are my USAF flying days coming out of me with the same experience in aircraft if we were going for vMax not vCrus (but I had fuel flow guages and I could count on all of my fuel ). The previous owner, also an aviator, did some calcs and he said at 19-20 knots he was getting 1.2-1.6 MPGs on one of his Bahamas runs, but who knows if he did his math right. 26 GPH @ 19 NMPH (21.85 SMPH) is 1.18 MPG.

Have built a whole spares kit and bought a new toolset for the boat, although I guess the fuel cooler hoses are some factory hose which I probably don't have? Will need to take a quick look at SBMAR and may pay an overnight shipping penalty.

 

[LMBoat]

Let me know what your fuel burn numbers turn out to be for the trip. The only way I get 1.2 - 1.6 MPG is at 8 knots. The Cummins charts are useful, but don't take into account the boat (clean bottom, weight, props, etc)

The best on plane MPG that I have ever had was at 20 knots headed from Bimini to FLL with wind, seas, and the gulfstream behind me, no fresh water, no black water, and 150 gals of fuel and I got .9 MPG

I've had my boat for 10 years and have put 1,400 hours on it, so I have a pretty good feel for how it likes to run, and that is 20 knots at 2,250 RPM. And that gives me .75 MPG (+/- 10% for wind/current). There is a sweet spot that you'll find. i.e. running at 19 knots may burn more fuel that at 20.

Another FYI on the fuel gauges: As with most boats, not the most accurate. My gauges were both at 1/8 of a tank and I just filled it up. It only took 250 gal. And the tank will burp fuel before the gauges read full. I have changed out the senders try to make an improvement w/o much success. Long store here......

Also, you have great engines. These 6CTA's have been the best engines I have ever owned, boats or cars. 22 years old, 2,200 hours and the only things I have had to do (other than reg maintence) is a starter (strb), alternator (Port), and fuel solenoid (Strb). Simply, easy to find parts, relatively inexpensive, but if you are already on SBMar, you know that. Maintain the saltwater side and they will last a long time. And zero issues with the transmissions.

Thanks
Larry

 

[Shoyrtt]

Well, I think this weekend is a go!
...
What is the farthest any of you have gone?

I checked on Google and it looks like my longest run from Morro Bay to Long Beach on the relocation trip was 230 statute miles (about 200 nautical miles). I believe I had about 40 gallons left in the tank when we got in.
On a typical run for us back and forth to Avalon, we use less than a 1/4 tank. It is approximately 25 nautical miles each way so 50 miles round trip. On average we might use the generator 6 to 8 hours on a three day weekend for hot water etc. After two trips (100NM + generator time), the gauges are just a tick above 1/2 a tank and I refuel. It seems like almost every time I put in 160 to 170 gallons of diesel to fill the tanks.
I hope this helps.

 

[Forrestkk]

@LMBoat @Shoyrtt great info...thx! Appreciate all the advice.

Going to lay up on day two, that gets me home get home at 100 PM Monday with stops in Clearwater and Port St Joe.

More to follow!

 

[Shoyrtt]

I had one of those "oh sh*t" moments last night. I was doing a little work on the boat and I went into the center compartment near the galley sink. Water! I quickly confirm it is fresh water and started looking for the source after I got all of it out with my wet vac. The pex lines run across the boat just forward of the opening and go under the fridge and microwave before turning toward the master head. I noticed this small puddle right at the turn:

For reference the grey tubing is the exhaust for the central vacuum. The white tubing is the drain for the shower and sink in the master and barely visible are the pex lines. I shut off the pump and cleaned out his area. I turned the pump back on and turned on both the hot and cold on the sink. No new water appeared. I then ran the shower and, low and behold the water returned.
My hunch was either the mixing valve or one of the pex fittings. I took off the shower handle and the cover and found the leak but I can't confirm the source. My hunch says it is the mixing valve. When we bought the boat the master shower didn't work. The seller's mechanic fiddled with it and we thought there were no problems. A couple of months ago the shower head would leak a little when the pump was on, but I figured it was just another project to get to.

From my research this is just a basic Delta mixing valve so it should be easy to replace. The other possibility is this elbow which also shouldn't be too bad, but will require it to be ordered and a week or so of down time.

After my discovery, I figured all was well. No so fast said the boat. I noticed a small amount of water was seeping into the center compartment from the wall near where the central vacuum was located. There is no access to this area that I can find. My guess is there is a lot of water in there to deal with. The small crack is in the center of this picture is where the water comes out (I put a small dab of silicone on it):

My plan is to cut a small hole to start with a hole saw above this area where the spray bottle handle is in the picture. Hopefully I can see how much water is in there and start a plan to get the water out. I think the fresh water tank is further aft of this location, but I'm not sure. Just another project to tackle.

 

[LMBoat]

Good luck with the leak. Let us know how you progress.

The fresh water tanks <mine has twin 50 gal> are aft of this area. You can see them from under the stairs in the aft cabin (kinda center line of the boat, at the aft cabin doorway). I pray I never have a leak in there as I think the only way to gain access is with a sawzall.

As for being "down a week" due to the shower, they make valves for this type of plumbing. Same connectors, just cut the tube, push the valve on one end, then the other. Then you can shut off whatever is leaking, turn on the pumps and still use the boat. I've been slowing adding these in different areas of the boat for projects just like this. I didn't want a leak to shut down the whole boat.

I also did something similar the AC seawater hoses/manifold. I have valves on the 3 hoses for each AC unit. if I need to work on one AC unit, I can shut that valve off, and still be able to run the other 2 (to keep the boat cool while I wrestle with the offending unit). Both have have been good upgrades, at not much money.

Good luck with the leak!

Larry

 

[Shoyrtt]

Thank you again Larry! Can you tell me where you get your metric fittings? I think it is a great upgrade to get some shut off valves in the system. I went to my local West Marine to pick up Whale Products metric fittings to repair my water heater leak earlier and bought extra T, elbows, straight couplers and pex line that I store under the midship stateroom bed. It would be good to have an alternate source.

On the repair front, I was only able to remove the hot and cold pex lines from the Delta splitter valve last night. The output to the spray hose/shower head is stuck and needs a little “love” (aka a pipe wrench) to break it free. The good news is the new Delta valve looks to be identical to the old one. I’m crossing my fingers that the elbow pex fittings were not the source of the leak.

My attempt to look down into the area where the water was seeping stopped very quickly after I hit foam with the hole saw that was completely dry. I will put the 1” piece back in with epoxy. To remove the water I went straight to the site of the seepage. I drilled out the small crack and the flow increased, but it wasn’t substantial. I then took the wet vac and placed it over the new hole. I was able to get about two quarts of water out. I then moved aft about a foot and drilled a second hole. Again I got a quart or two out. I’m not sure if this is the best method but I’m hoping it works.

 

[LMBoat]

i got my fittings from Boat Owner's Warehouse, the local boat store here in So FL. I have heard Lowes/Depot have them, but not positive.

Continued good luck on the repair!