420/44 DB Owners Club

[Irie308]

I'm having my panels rebuilt to accept new mfd's and they are asking if vdo or teleflex.

 

[Mark.60]

Thinking about picking up spare props for my 420 sedan bridge with 450 Diamond engines. Currently swinging 23x26 wheels, and rpms are on target.
What's consensus of best performing make and model props for this set up?
Thanks

Don’t be so concerned about performance .what is more important is that your fuel burn numbers are in line.
Check out sbmarine.com

 

[Jaybeaux]

I'm having my panels rebuilt to accept new mfd's and they are asking if vdo or teleflex.

Ok, I have a 2004 420 DA. The PDF that Technografix sent for review was titled "420 DA IP Teleflex Next Gen GPS Tridata 1726650"

Jaybeaux

 

[boaterholic]

Don’t be so concerned about performance .what is more important is that your fuel burn numbers are in line.
Check out sbmarine.com

I'm looking at your link but I guess I'm not doing good at finding what you're suggesting. Can you further direct me within the site?
As far as which props, I thought maybe some of you all had already played with different makes and models for given power and model boat and had some thoughts on what performed better and by performed I don't mean speed but rather better ride and fuel burns. When I had outboards I played with many different props to tune in what overall made the boat ride better and respond better to my inputs. In the outboard world it's definitely some black magic to it for sure! I was always amazed at how different different model props made the boat ride in spite of being the same diameter and pitch across the board.

 

[techmitch]

I'm looking at your link but I guess I'm not doing good at finding what you're suggesting. Can you further direct me within the site?
As far as which props, I thought maybe some of you all had already played with different makes and models for given power and model boat and had some thoughts on what performed better and by performed I don't mean speed but rather better ride and fuel burns. When I had outboards I played with many different props to tune in what overall made the boat ride better and respond better to my inputs. In the outboard world it's definitely some black magic to it for sure! I was always amazed at how different different model props made the boat ride in spite of being the same diameter and pitch across the board.

Not a diesel guy,... yet, but listen to these guys, they are a wealth of knowledge. Check out the suggested website, sign up/read up.
To,... most importantly, take care of your engines. From what, I understand with diesels it's all about the RPMS and the fuel burn specs.

 

[Mark.60]

If you go to sbmarine.com and go to forums.look under cummins, then read about over propping.you will see a chart showing fuel burn at different rpm ranges. Most sea rays are over propped from the factory, that’s to get more speed.
The cummins 480ce was dropping valves causing major engine failure at low hours all due to over propping.
Hope this helps

 

[boaterholic]

If you go to sbmarine.com and go to forums.look under cummins, then read about over propping.you will see a chart showing fuel burn at different rpm ranges. Most sea rays are over propped from the factory, that’s to get more speed.
The cummins 480ce was dropping valves causing major engine failure at low hours all due to over propping.
Hope this helps

 

[boaterholic]

Ok thanks. Will search it.
It was on this site I learned about the 480 issue and one of the reasons I wanted the mechanical 450 Diamond’s. When I had the sea trial done the Cummins guy I hired for engine survey said this boat was propped almost perfect. So for my spares I’m trying to stay in same size and pitch but wanted to find out if the forum members had played with different brands or models of certain brand and decided a specific brand and model gave best performance in general, ie fuel mileage, cruise speed, lowest planning speed, etc, while still turning rated max rom’s so as to not overload the engines.

 

[Escapade]

What to look for? Friday we inspect a 06 44 dancer. Is there any "Tell tales" we should be aware of? We have a Moisture.
Thanks, Mike

 

[Irie308]

Ok, I have a 2004 420 DA. The PDF that Technografix sent for review was titled "420 DA IP Teleflex Next Gen GPS Tridata 1726650"

Jaybeaux

Thank you!

 

[sb in gp]

What to look for? Friday we inspect a 06 44 dancer. Is there any "Tell tales" we should be aware of? We have a Moisture.
Thanks, Mike

Lots of systems on this boat. I'll focus on the most expensive, the motors: With the QSC motors in a 06 44 I don't know of any "tell-tale" issues. I would focus on the basics: I would want to see the detailed maintenance records. You can download and read the Cummins recommendations. As Frank always says - you need to stay ahead of maintenance in diesels. There are some maint items that are fairly pricey - like the overhead valve adjustments and the aftercooler maint. If this is freshwater, then the aftercoolers may be less of an issue - but it is still recommended by sbmarine.com that they be serviced. I would strongly encourage you to have a Cummins certified tech do a separate inspection of the motors - this will allow a review of all the fault history to see if there have been any overheating issues. You are reaching an age on these motors that many things need to be addressed, including water hoses. Once the basics are checked, then ensuring that they reach rated RPM at WOT would be my next check.

This is a great boat and a great power package, that are well paired. Good luck to you.

 

[Irie308]

Ok thanks. Will search it.
It was on this site I learned about the 480 issue and one of the reasons I wanted the mechanical 450 Diamond’s. When I had the sea trial done the Cummins guy I hired for engine survey said this boat was propped almost perfect. So for my spares I’m trying to stay in same size and pitch but wanted to find out if the forum members had played with different brands or models of certain brand and decided a specific brand and model gave best performance in general, ie fuel mileage, cruise speed, lowest planning speed, etc, while still turning rated max rom’s so as to not overload the engines.

Have been shopping around for a used pair of props myself since finding some rocks in my local waters a week before labor day last season. I would go with what you currently have. You want to make sure that you are hitting your rpms at WOT. I don't think there is anything to be gained by tweaking what you currently have. haven't pulled the trigger on a set yet. They are not cheap so have been trying to find a used set. I'm in no rush but haven't found a set yet as i'm not in a rush to part with 5k for spares.

 

[my3sons]

Ok thanks. Will search it.
It was on this site I learned about the 480 issue and one of the reasons I wanted the mechanical 450 Diamond’s. When I had the sea trial done the Cummins guy I hired for engine survey said this boat was propped almost perfect. So for my spares I’m trying to stay in same size and pitch but wanted to find out if the forum members had played with different brands or models of certain brand and decided a specific brand and model gave best performance in general, ie fuel mileage, cruise speed, lowest planning speed, etc, while still turning rated max rpm’s so as to not overload the engines.

To a Cummins tech, perfect may be 2600 rpm, which is rated WOT rpm. "Almost perfect" could be less than that 2600 figure, the numbers should be in your survey report.
Per the Seaboard web site mentioned above, the motors should be propped to turn up 2700+ rpm with full fuel and water loads and all you "stuff" on board. You may want to hold off spending money on props that you may have to repitch at a later date until you know for sure what the loaded WOT rpms are as you use the boat. Hopefully you won't need spares right from the get-go.

 

[Escapade]

Lots of systems on this boat. I'll focus on the most expensive, the motors: With the QSC motors in a 06 44 I don't know of any "tell-tale" issues. I would focus on the basics: I would want to see the detailed maintenance records. You can download and read the Cummins recommendations. As Frank always says - you need to stay ahead of maintenance in diesels. There are some maint items that are fairly pricey - like the overhead valve adjustments and the aftercooler maint. If this is freshwater, then the aftercoolers may be less of an issue - but it is still recommended by sbmarine.com that they be serviced. I would strongly encourage you to have a Cummins certified tech do a separate inspection of the motors - this will allow a review of all the fault history to see if there have been any overheating issues. You are reaching an age on these motors that many things need to be addressed, including water hoses. Once the basics are checked, then ensuring that they reach rated RPM at WOT would be my next check.

This is a great boat and a great power package, that are well paired. Good luck to you.

THank You! Our broker has contacted both Cummins and a survey guy for when we reach that point.

 

[Irie308]

What to look for? Friday we inspect a 06 44 dancer. Is there any "Tell tales" we should be aware of? We have a Moisture.
Thanks, Mike

We had a survey done on a 420 deal that fell through due to the survey. I will say that I was almost embarrassed by the amount of things my surveyor found, even before he got into the boat. Things I completely missed when we first looked at the boat. A good surveyor should be able to find irregularities and a good Cummins guy should be able to give you a good reading on the gen and motors.

 

[scootie]

Looking to replace the zincs in the engines (480ce) this spring. Also going to do the aftercoolers , fresh water with 700 hours on them. Would like to find a set of spare impellers as well. Whats the best place to get the parts? Previous owner had the engines and genny impellers oil, trans and fuel fluids and filters replaced at 650 hours so I'm not planning to do them yet but want a spare. Also should I be thinking about changing coolant filter or additives to the coolant?
I know lots of questions but its too cold to go boating on Lake Michigan right now so I have lots of time to think.....

 

[Mark.60]

To say I over do my maintenance is an understatement.
I purchased this boat in September , for the maintenance I’m not saying I don’t trust broker or previous owner, but I don’t trust them. I started with belts and worked back on the motors. I replaced everything.
Fuel coolers
Impellers
Row water hoses
After coolers
Serviced heat exchangers
Removed turbos , clean and inspect
Changed all fluids and filters
Changed coolants
The after coolers were serviced but badly pitted when I opened them up
All complete did the work myself at a cost of about 12k
Most of my information on these qsc 55 came from seab

THank You! Our broker has contacted both Cummins and a survey guy for when we reach that point.

THank You! Our broker has contacted both Cummins and a survey guy for when we reach that point.

Check the turbos make sure they haven’t turned a tan color that is a sign of overheating.
Good luck and an early congratulations

 

[Escapade]

To say I over do my maintenance is an understatement.
I purchased this boat in September , for the maintenance I’m not saying I don’t trust broker or previous owner, but I don’t trust them. I started with belts and worked back on the motors. I replaced everything.
Fuel coolers
Impellers
Row water hoses
After coolers
Serviced heat exchangers
Removed turbos , clean and inspect
Changed all fluids and filters
Changed coolants
The after coolers were serviced but badly pitted when I opened them up
All complete did the work myself at a cost of about 12k
Most of my information on these qsc 55 came from seab


Check the turbos make sure they haven’t turned a tan color that is a sign of overheating.
Good luck and an early congratulations

Great input, I'm jojjing this down now. Thanks. Mike

 

[sb in gp]

We had a survey done on a 420 deal that fell through due to the survey. I will say that I was almost embarrassed by the amount of things my surveyor found, even before he got into the boat. Things I completely missed when we first looked at the boat. A good surveyor should be able to find irregularities and a good Cummins guy should be able to give you a good reading on the gen and motors.

I had a deal on a 420 fall through with the 480 CE motors because I read about the over-propping/valve issue and I reached out to Cummins service and they shared the repair history (1 had been repaired and the other not). The broker and seller were, of course, not volunteering that info. This was plain lucky on my part. The Cummins tech would have also caught this, but I was not as knowledgeable and was planning to pass on the engine survey. When the motors cost about $50K each to replace, it is worth a little extra expense to make sure there are no issues.

 

[Mark.60]

The cummins motors are one of the best, a lot of problems come from the boat manufacturer. My boat was over propped. This is my first diesel boat and I was nervous about buying this boat. Between this site and seaboard you will have as much information as a cummins tech. When all the maintenance is done you will be happy to push the switch and hear them purr