40 sedan bridge forum

When we had the sea trials done for a 340 we were looking at, the surveyor put one engine in neutral and went WOT with the other - he measured the max RPM and speed. He then did the same for the other engine. He found one engine couldn't reach the RPM and was not reaching full power. The owner promised to fix it ... $3500 later after changing many components and still not fixing it, we walked. I thought it was a great approach to verifying that each engine was putting out equally. The approach may help to narrow if the problem is specifically on one side or not.

Good luck.

/Tom
 
Thanks again Alex. I live in a central island 400 Plus miles from away from Manila. I would rather trouble shoot before spending a huge amount to fly in a technician. We also dont have a lift in the area.

Sorry for my ignorance but what do you mean by struts? Is it the one holding the shaft? Which bearing should i check? The one in the transmission or under water?
 
Thanks too Tom. It seems like a good idea to do the no load test.
My boat has a synchronizer. Do you know how to use it? The instructions were a bit vague. It says something like throttle up the main, then the slave. Should this be done with the engines running or off? I have a gauge in the center that suppose to point which engine is running more than the other. Is this the purpose for the synchronizer? I noticed that even if it centered, on engine has a higher rpm than the other, maybe 50 more.
 
swordfisherman said:
Thanks again Alex. I live in a central island 400 Plus miles from away from Manila. I would rather trouble shoot before spending a huge amount to fly in a technician. We also dont have a lift in the area.

Sorry for my ignorance but what do you mean by struts? Is it the one holding the shaft? Which bearing should i check? The one in the transmission or under water?
Click to expand...

Oh boy, that's a tough one.

Here's a pic of 2002 400DB I was surveying. It shows the strut and the shaft. As you can see there's substantial bottom growth which was a contributing factor to lack of performance (speed in my case, not the RPMs).


400DB_strut.jpg

I'm not sure how much you can do without hauling the boat. As far as I know any alignment job requires hauling out. Perhaps there's a way to determine the struts condition by having a diver with some special tools. But, other than that I think you'll need a lift. I have never heard a process of alignment or changing the cutlass bearings being done in water. If there's a way, it'll be news to me.

Let us know how you make out.
 
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Thanks for the pic Alex. I guess i will try to find clear water and dive under the boat again this weekend. I will try to see how she runs with out the davit this afternoon if seas are calm. Her fuel is just a bit over half tanks, this should be light enough already. I will also leave the dinghy.
BTW what is that thing to the left of the pic? The one in front of the shaft?
 
I don't remember what that thing was, I only saw it on this boat.

Few additional thoughts:
1. You mentioned shaft rotation resistance on the stbd side. But could you still spin it? If you can spin the prop with your hands, then it should almost have no affect on the RPMs for these powerful engines.

2. You need to do a test run and take notes of each side individually. Here's how I would do it:
a-The idea is to sort of match the baseline SR is using, so unload necessary heavy items like dinghy, don't have too mach in the holding tank, empty water tank or have no more than 1/2.
b-Take her for the ride and log the following on each side at different RPMs (idle, 1000, 1400, 2000 and WOT):
- RPMs
- speed
- water temps
- oil pressure

I don't think that the numbers like max WOT of 2400 will be on both sides. Theoretically, one side should have an issue. If both have the same, then your props need to be tweaked allowing the engines to reach RPMs to the specs.

BTW, did you just get the boat? Was the survey done? When was the last time she was able to reach WOT to the specs?

Do you spare props? It might be worth trying swapping them, only after the seatrial with all the numbers logged.

Don't worry about the engine sync, it's only going to mess you up. You should only use it when all is working up to specs. In short, this feature allows to use a single throttle to keep both engines perfectly at the same RPMs to balance the load and give you best results in performance. Let's leave it for later, when we see that some numbers from you seatrial will make sense.

Also, when diving under take a look at the end of the prop pockets. There should be what looks like a small (maybe an 1"-2") "LIP" right on the edge, do you have those?
 
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The ground plate ? Not on the left but I wish it were a bar of gold...we all would be rich !
 
Alex,

I did test her out yesterday for a few minutes because the seas were building due to several small storms in the area.
Seas were about 3 ft with a lot of chops due to windy conditions. Port fuel tank just a bit over half on the gauge. Starboard
tank had a little below the half tank mark. Holding tank empty and Freshwater tank full.
Running up wind i could only do 19 kts at 2300 rpms, trim tabs were full
down. I tried to adjust a bit up but still would not plane. I wonder why sea ray did not put a trim indicator in the dash?
Down wind I was able to see 23 knots and she was already on plane, rpms 2600 this is already wot. there were 5 people on the
boat, 2 on the bridge and 3 at the cockpit below. Do you think this is normal already? Im still worried that at dead calm seas
I still would not make it to plane. As i have read the forums here, 20 knots is the optimal cruise speed, thus i really want to
reach it or else i will just be burning fuel when off plane at say 17 knots.

I repeated the no load test yesterday. the port engine would go up to 3,100 rpms while the starboard would only do 3,000.
Strange because when at wot and off plane (16-17 knots) , the port engine would only go up to 2,300 while the starboard
could reach the 2,500 mark? What gives?

Oil pressure, the port engine has a higher pressure at over 60 while the starboard was a bit lower.
Engine water temps was around 180

I will try to take her to clear water next week and dive under the boat and clean whatever i could under.
I will also check if she has those lips you mentioned.

This boat is new to me, I bought her last wednesday and did not have her surveyed because the previous
owner was a friend of a friend and he would personally guarantee that there were no problems. I only later
found out that he only does 17 knots and says he was already happy with it. Now i am burdened to get her
to run at 20.

Last thing on my mind is repower with bigger engines later on. After reading around here, the cummins seems to
be doing better that the cats right? Would they just bolt on? Or get bigger horse 3126's
 
swordfisherman said:
Alex,

I did test her out yesterday for a few minutes because the seas were building due to several small storms in the area.
Seas were about 3 ft with a lot of chops due to windy conditions. Port fuel tank just a bit over half on the gauge. Starboard
tank had a little below the half tank mark. Holding tank empty and Freshwater tank full.
Running up wind i could only do 19 kts at 2300 rpms, trim tabs were full
down. I tried to adjust a bit up but still would not plane. I wonder why sea ray did not put a trim indicator in the dash?
Down wind I was able to see 23 knots and she was already on plane, rpms 2600 this is already wot. there were 5 people on the
boat, 2 on the bridge and 3 at the cockpit below. Do you think this is normal already? Im still worried that at dead calm seas
I still would not make it to plane. As i have read the forums here, 20 knots is the optimal cruise speed, thus i really want to
reach it or else i will just be burning fuel when off plane at say 17 knots.

I repeated the no load test yesterday. the port engine would go up to 3,100 rpms while the starboard would only do 3,000.
Strange because when at wot and off plane (16-17 knots) , the port engine would only go up to 2,300 while the starboard
could reach the 2,500 mark? What gives?

Oil pressure, the port engine has a higher pressure at over 60 while the starboard was a bit lower.
Engine water temps was around 180

I will try to take her to clear water next week and dive under the boat and clean whatever i could under.
I will also check if she has those lips you mentioned.

This boat is new to me, I bought her last wednesday and did not have her surveyed because the previous
owner was a friend of a friend and he would personally guarantee that there were no problems. I only later
found out that he only does 17 knots and says he was already happy with it. Now i am burdened to get her
to run at 20.

Last thing on my mind is repower with bigger engines later on. After reading around here, the cummins seems to
be doing better that the cats right? Would they just bolt on? Or get bigger horse 3126's
Click to expand...

Alright, looks like we have something to analyze here. I have to say though, I begin to understand the mistakes you're doing. Let me try to point out few thing I see that are going on here:

1. "...Port fuel tank just a bit over half on the gauge. Starboard tank had a little below the half tank mark. Holding tank empty and Freshwater tank full..." - your water tank is 100 gallons, which translates to about 800LBs sitting all the way at the stern. I guess you misread my suggestion on dumping your water at least to 1/2. Why don't you have it empty or no more than 1/4 until you get comfort level with the performance.

2. Running up wind i could only do 19 kts at 2300 rpms, trim tabs were full down. I tried to adjust a bit up but still would not plane. - With your boat I'm almost positive that you should keep the trim tabs fully DOWN. The boat is very much stern heavy and you'll need all the tabs you can get. Have them down and don't touch them until she gets to 24kts or so (I'm sure this day will come).

3. Down wind I was able to see 23 knots and she was already on plane, rpms 2600 this is already wot. there were 5 people on the boat, 2 on the bridge and 3 at the cockpit below. Do you think this is normal already? - Mazel tov.... that's great news, we're getting closer to the target, 200RPMs to go.

4. I repeated the no load test yesterday. the port engine would go up to 3,100 rpms while the starboard would only do 3,000. - I would focus on the stbd side until it reaches WOT of 3100RPMs. When was the maintenance done? IS the fuel fresh? Are the fuel filters (Racors and secondaries) in good shape? Is there any smoke?

5. Oil pressure, the port engine has a higher pressure at over 60 while the starboard was a bit lower. Engine water temps was around 180 - I'm not a CATs expert, but these numbers seamed to be on the normal side. I'm sure Frank W. can verify it for us.

6. This boat is new to me, I bought her last wednesday and did not have her surveyed because the previous owner was a friend of a friend and he would personally guarantee that there were no problems. I only later found out that he only does 17 knots and says he was already happy with it. Now i am burdened to get her to run at 20. - I guess you forgot the saying "if you want to loose a friend, do business transaction with him". If he's a true friend, he should be working with you on this every step of the way. I'm guessing by now you've realized that you got yourself in a mess. These boats are not a joke, they're big and expensive. Tell your "friend" to step to the plate and share the knowledge and the expense to get her running to the specs.

7. Last thing on my mind is repower with bigger engines later on. After reading around here, the cummins seems to be doing better that the cats right? Would they just bolt on? Or get bigger horse 3126's - Please don't make statements like this, I'm sure you made a lot of people laughing. CATs make great engines and if you think your 3126s can't move this boat, try 3116s which are even less powerful. However, when they're properly tuned and maintained they do just fine. BTW, I almost boat a 400DB with 3116s. So, don't even think about swapping the engines unless your "friend" ..."killed" the original ones. But, just an FYI, in 2001 SR started to switch to Cummins 450Cs as a preferred power for these boats.

8. As i have read the forums here, 20 knots is the optimal cruise speed, thus i really want to reach it or else i will just be burning fuel when off plane at say 17 knots. - I don't think you have developed a feel for this boat. There's no such thing for her to run off plane at 17kts. You're clearly missing something here.

9. Strange because when at wot and off plane (16-17 knots) , the port engine would only go up to 2,300 while the starboard could reach the 2,500 mark? What gives? - This is another indication that you don't feel how the boat is running. The WOT test can only be done when she's on plane for at least couple of minutes.

Let me try to help with the WOT test. Do the following (BTW, make sure the GPS is set to read the speed SOG, not from the spinner under the boat):
a-drain the water tank.
b-warm up the engines for about 10min.
c-make sure the tabs are fully down and take her out to an open area.
d-advance the throttle to 1000rpms for ab 10-15sec, then push it to 1500rpms and hold for another 5sec or so, then to 2000rpms and wait another 5sec or so, then to push the throttles to full. She should be very much on plane within another 5sec or so. Bring back the throttles to about 2500RPMs and let her run for about 5-10 minutes. Let her ride nice and easy. Log all the numbers for each side, including the speed.
e-now after the 10 min or sow ride push the throttles all the way up and let her ride there for at least 3-5min. Log the numbers for each side, plus the speed. After about 5min at WOT cruise she should pickup the speed to at least 24kts with RPMs around 2600 or better. It's time to touch the trim tabs just a bit. Raise them very little (touch the switches for 1 second) and see what happens. She should start riding a little better and faster. Touch the tabs again just a little and watch the speed and RPMs. Repiet until you see that she's starting to slow down, which means that your tabs are raised too much and you need to take them down again.

Stay at WOT no more than 10-15min, this should be plenty of time to do all kinds of testing. The take her back to normal 2400-2500rpms and enjoy the rest of the cruise.

Hope this helps a little.
 
Thank you again Alex for taking the time to write and explain everything to me. I changed all 4 filters on the racors because 3/4 of the way of
the transition trip (subic bay - bacolod city) because i noticed black smoke. I could not find the racor brand so i had to settle with another brand but same quality (forgot brand, made in UK).

I will have to wait till the weather gets better and try to test her again the way you explained towards clear clean water where i can dive and look
under the boat.

We have a local CAT dealer here however they specialize more on heavy equipments like bulldozers and graders. Im not sure if they know about
marine engines and drive trains too. They quoted me equivalent to Usd $2,200 just to check the engines. I have also read somewhere in the forums that the 3126's of diff hps have the same blocks, its just the turbo and governor that are bigger for the big hp's. Im not sure if its wise to upgrade them. I might have reliability issues later on. I forgot to tell you they have around 850 hours on them. With the starboard side having 7 more hours than the port.

I'll get back to you next week once the weather improves and i get to test her again. BTW, on your signature pic, after the radar is a dome shaped antenna, is that for your satellite TV? What brand is it and how much did it cost you? Thanks again for all the help.

Lit
 
Wow, $2,200 just to check the engines .....these people are nuts.

I'm glad your engines have 850hrs, I would worry more if they had 150hrs.

It looks like you have some time before the weather calms down. So, I wouldn't waste the time and do a lot of research and start asking more detailed questions.

- Verify that specs for WOT at no load is really 3100RPMs for your engines.
- If the 3100 is the actual number, then try opening a thread with title along the lines "CATs 3126 can't get to 3100RPMs at no load test".
- Sign up for "diesel dot com" and post your questions there as well. There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks there as well as on this board.

The bottom line is that I would focus on making sure that both engines can reach what the specs say for no load WOT. There's no reason to spend fuel money and the time on sea-trial until you're 100% satisfied with the engines at the dock.

You don't need to wait until you get to the clear water to double check few things. For example, to verify how the props are spinning you can do it at the dock. Note what's the difference between both side when you spin the props. The basic logic is that as long as you can spin the props, having some resistance on one side is not that big of a deal and it will not make your monster engines loose 200RPMs.

Do you have any maintenance records? When was the last oil change? When was the last oil samples done?
 
Sorry bad typo. $ 220.00 to check the both engines. I already signed up with boat diesel, had to add level 2 for the westerbeke gen set. I can't dive in our dock because the waters are toxic hehe. I'm pretty sure next weekend as long as waters calm down

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4
 
I am considering offering on an older 400DB. So I have a few questions. What's the little flexible antenna on the radar arch for on a 99 400DB? It's about a foot long and all rusty.

Also, if you've replaced the factory analog TV in the salon with a flat panel, dId you take out the entire hanging enclosure, or did you just take out the TV and mount the flat panel on the face of the enclosure?

The electric fold down salon seat moves a bit when in the seating position. Is that normal due to the fold down mechanics? Or is something loose or bent?

Did anyone figure out something creative to put in place of the built in blender?

Thanks.
 
ZZ13 said:
I am considering offering on an older 400DB. So I have a few questions. What's the little flexible antenna on the radar arch for on a 99 400DB? It's about a foot long and all rusty.

Also, if you've replaced the factory analog TV in the salon with a flat panel, dId you take out the entire hanging enclosure, or did you just take out the TV and mount the flat panel on the face of the enclosure?

The electric fold down salon seat moves a bit when in the seating position. Is that normal due to the fold down mechanics? Or is something loose or bent?

Did anyone figure out something creative to put in place of the built in blender?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Re: TV in Salon: Threw out old TV/VCR combo. I used a piano hinge and mounted a flat screen TV on a piece of acrylic and mounted on top of the hole on the front of the 'hanging' box as you call it (TV now swings UP.) The now empty 'box' became my liquor/ TV sat. control/electronics area. The flexible antennae I think is for the radio (?) I use the Nutone power head (1) to sharpen knives (attachment I bought on e-bay) (2) had no idea what else to do with hole it would have left. I don't have electric fold down - no answer here.
 
Considering an older 400DB. Check out 1997 400DB on this web site, "Used Sea Rays, Sedans."
 
ZZ13 said:
I am considering offering on an older 400DB. So I have a few questions. What's the little flexible antenna on the radar arch for on a 99 400DB? It's about a foot long and all rusty.

Also, if you've replaced the factory analog TV in the salon with a flat panel, dId you take out the entire hanging enclosure, or did you just take out the TV and mount the flat panel on the face of the enclosure?

The electric fold down salon seat moves a bit when in the seating position. Is that normal due to the fold down mechanics? Or is something loose or bent?

Did anyone figure out something creative to put in place of the built in blender?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I removed the entire cabinet and mounted a 32" LED. I like the look and the headroom, but the idea of using the old cabinet area as storage (as mentioned above) sounds like a good setup.

I have the electric fold down seat. It does not move at all when in the "seat" position - I would check to make sure something isn't loose.

I still have the blender, but have never used it.

I'm partial, but they are great boats! Good luck!
 
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