"What is wrong" was already asked....

[boatman37]

Brazil is not like the US in any way shape or form. Do you really think that this comparison makes any sense? We do business in Brazil. I know of what I speak.

Maybe the Australian experience, but not Brazil.

No but if guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns (do you really think the criminals will turn in their guns). I could see after a few years violent crime getting worse since the bad guy would rarely face resistance from their victims. To the extremes, yes violent gun wielding gangs would rule the country. Would we ever see extremes here in the U.S.? Doubt it. But even if it starts heading that direction I see that as a step back from where we are now.

 

[lawndoctor]

I could see after a few years violent crime getting worse since the bad guy would rarely face resistance from their victims. To the extremes, yes violent gun wielding gangs would rule the country. Would we ever see extremes here in the U.S.?

You mean like MS-13?

 

[Gofirstclass]

Brazil is not like the US in any way shape or form. Do you really think that this comparison makes any sense? We do business in Brazil..

Creekwood, not being argumentative here, but would please explain the differences to me?

 

[lawndoctor]

Creekwood, not being argumentative here, but would please explain the differences to me?

Maybe Creekwood was referring to Brazilian women? We have offices in Brazil and I’ve been there a number of times. It certainly has its issues, but it’s a beautiful place. My colleagues who live there love it.

 

[Creekwood]

It’s beautiful in the beautiful places. It’s the legal and government systems that are very different. There is also vast poverty and even more have/ have not than in the US as a result. There is more curruption in government. Not quite Mexico but far more than the US.

But if you want to place the US in the same bracket as Brazil, that is your call. But I would pick a developed country as the comparator.

 

[Creekwood]

Here is an interesting couple of stats
for you to research. How many current 16 and 17 year old high school students will be old enough to vote in two years, and how does that compare to the number of NRA members in the USA?

 

[scoflaw]

Here is an interesting couple of stats
for you to research. How many current 16 and 17 year old high school students will be old enough to vote in two years, and how does that compare to the number of NRA members in the USA?

Why would you assume all 16/17 year olds are anti gun ? You be wrong on that one.

 

[Creekwood]

Why would you assume all 16/17 year olds are anti gun ? You be wrong on that one.

I didn’t say anything about how they would vote. Just looking at the numbers. I think there are 5 million members. What is the population of 16/17 year olds?

But I will say that the NRA May want to think about the numbers. It might be time for them to help with a solution instead of blocking every attempt at change. Every time a mass shooting happens more people shift to the anti-side. That’s actually not good for those that support the 2nd amendment but also think laws to restrict some aspects are good. Or you can leave it the way it is and let school shootings continue until there is much larger support for much more restrictions. Fix it now and you will get a more rational solution. Wait, and you and the NRA may get one you don’t like.

 

[Gofirstclass]

That’s actually not good for those that support the 2nd amendment but also think laws to restrict some aspects are good. Or you can leave it the way it is and let school shootings continue until there is much larger support for much more restrictions. Fix it now and you will get a more rational solution. Wait, and you and the NRA may get one you don’t like.

I'm probably in the group you describe of gun owners who know changes are needed. I've been a gun owner/shooter/hunter/firearms instructor for over 50 years. I don't want new gun laws that would restrict my rights to own and use a gun.

But at the same time I know change is needed. We need better systems to identify those people who have mental disabilities but have not been ordered to seek counseling or ordered to a mental health facility.

IMO, "normal/sane" people do not do mass shootings. Too often when one has happened, people who knew the shooter later said things like "yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I always knew he was a weird guy."

It goes back to "if you see something, say something". We don't want to turn into a country of snitches, but we need to feel more free to speak up confidentially about someone we think could be capable of an act like this. And then we need a system in place that can contact that person and make an evaluation of his mental state BEFORE he goes off the deep end.

 

[scoflaw]

I didn’t say anything about how they would vote. Just looking at the numbers. I think there are 5 million members. What is the population of 16/17 year olds?

But I will say that the NRA May want to think about the numbers. It might be time for them to help with a solution instead of blocking every attempt at change. Every time a mass shooting happens more people shift to the anti-side. That’s actually not good for those that support the 2nd amendment but also think laws to restrict some aspects are good. Or you can leave it the way it is and let school shootings continue until there is much larger support for much more restrictions. Fix it now and you will get a more rational solution. Wait, and you and the NRA may get one you don’t like.

You must be getting the drift by now that creating new gun laws won't change a thing. How many times do examples have to be stated here 300 posts later. The NRA certainly doesn't have a solution to the nut cases doing the killing but they are doing their best at protecting my rights as a US citizen to own firearms.

 

[MonacoMike]

What part of the constitution is that written in?
For those kids this is a life/death issue. Good on your kids for standing up for what they believe. But it is hugely hypocritical to say they don't have the right to protest as they did.

High school and university kids in the early 1970's had the balls to stand up for what they believed in and protest the Vietnam war. They did it against the will of their parents, their politicians, their President. They were beaten and arrested and the National guard shot and killed some. Thank the good lord that they did their part to put sanity into the government of the day and get your troops out of a war they should not have been in and could not win. Nothing different today. Just two differing views on what is right and wrong. Thank god they aren't patsies who just do what they are told.

If you think this is "kids", "standing for what they believe" you have been sold a bridge in the desert.

Game plan rolled out “within hours of the shooting”
– “spent the last several years putting into place”
– “caught the NRA flat-footed”
– $3.3 million dollars funding student march
– “Like the movement for marriage equality”
– “you have to change corporate policies”
– Every shooting exploited for “more momentum”
– 1.7 million new supporters, 140,000 new volunteers, 150 new local chapters
– “will be in place, ready to spring into action, at the next right moment”

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...-shannon-watts-moms-demand-action-nra-w518254

They are already openly bragging about how they pre-planned, strategized, and were waiting on a shooting, such as the tragedy at Parkland, to politicize for their political ends. Also all the gun control promotion and events like yesterday and the school "march" are nothing more than Democrat voter registration drives. This also serves as a cover-up of the massive failure of the liberal social engineering being done by the Obama administration all the way down to the local school and Sherriff's department.

MM

 

[MonacoMike]

I'm probably in the group you describe of gun owners who know changes are needed. I've been a gun owner/shooter/hunter/firearms instructor for over 50 years. I don't want new gun laws that would restrict my rights to own and use a gun.

But at the same time I know change is needed. We need better systems to identify those people who have mental disabilities but have not been ordered to seek counseling or ordered to a mental health facility.

IMO, "normal/sane" people do not do mass shootings. Too often when one has happened, people who knew the shooter later said things like "yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I always knew he was a weird guy."

It goes back to "if you see something, say something". We don't want to turn into a country of snitches, but we need to feel more free to speak up confidentially about someone we think could be capable of an act like this. And then we need a system in place that can contact that person and make an evaluation of his mental state BEFORE he goes off the deep end.

We are fairly close in agreement on the overall topic, but we had everything in place to stop this before it started. I recently read a blog that listed 60+ entities that failed and could be sued by parents of slain children. We have the laws, they must be followed.

MM

 

[MonacoMike]

What rights were taken away from me? I own guns and I also have the right to free healthcare so as I see it ..I have more rights than you. But priorities right? So long as you can walk into your local Wal Mart and buy a gun on a whim, all is good. ‘Merica. Yippy Kay Yay!

No you do not "have the right to free healthcare". There is no law of nature or God that allows for you to take from another for your own healthcare. There is a natural right to self defense and if we are to get past the point of the biggest and strongest rule "arms" level the field. "God made all men, Samuel Colt made all men equal."

MM

 

[Creekwood]

If you think this is "kids", "standing for what they believe" you have been sold a bridge in the desert.

Game plan rolled out “within hours of the shooting”
– “spent the last several years putting into place”
– “caught the NRA flat-footed”
– $3.3 million dollars funding student march
– “Like the movement for marriage equality”
– “you have to change corporate policies”
– Every shooting exploited for “more momentum”
– 1.7 million new supporters, 140,000 new volunteers, 150 new local chapters
– “will be in place, ready to spring into action, at the next right moment”

https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...-shannon-watts-moms-demand-action-nra-w518254

They are already openly bragging about how they pre-planned, strategized, and were waiting on a shooting, such as the tragedy at Parkland, to politicize for their political ends. Also all the gun control promotion and events like yesterday and the school "march" are nothing more than Democrat voter registration drives. This also serves as a cover-up of the massive failure of the liberal social engineering being done by the Obama administration all the way down to the local school and Sherriff's department.

MM

And the NRA does what????

By the way, the Kids 100% are standing for what THEY believe in. The fact that there are other groups and citizens backing and supporting them does not change that.

My main point in all of this is that you can pile into a well fortified bunker flying a 2nd amendment flag while the potential groundswell around you changes the laws without your input. Or you can actually work to define changed rules that everyone can live with (literally and figuratively). If you take the first path, you just may end up with new laws that you really don't like.

 

[Creekwood]

You must be getting the drift by now that creating new gun laws won't change a thing. How many times do examples have to be stated here 300 posts later. The NRA certainly doesn't have a solution to the nut cases doing the killing but they are doing their best at protecting my rights as a US citizen to own firearms.

I don't see any "examples" of how changing gun laws won't change things. I see a lot of hyperbole and passion, but no examples and no solutions from the NRA.

So you have clearly laid out what your view that there is zero changes needed to gun laws in the US.

So what is your solution to the clearly unique US experience of high levels of gun deaths, and high levels of mass shootings? Mental illness has no borders, but the issue does not present itself in other countries like it has in the US. If its not gun laws, what is it? I don't believe American's are any more prone than any other nationality to mental illness leading to the urge to kill large numbers of people. So what is it?

Maybe its all just fine, and leave it as is. If that's your answer, and the answer of the majority of Americans, that that is the answer for America.

But a slim majority is just that. And public opinion (and voting) can change.

 

[Steve S]

And the NRA does what????

By the way, the Kids 100% are standing for what THEY believe in. The fact that there are other groups and citizens backing and supporting them does not change that.

My main point in all of this is that you can pile into a well fortified bunker flying a 2nd amendment flag while the potential groundswell around you changes the laws without your input. Or you can actually work to define changed rules that everyone can live with (literally and figuratively). If you take the first path, you just may end up with new laws that you really don't like.

It has been proven that the teen mind (especially male) does not mature until the mid twenties. I think the 21 year old rule makes sense but then again many of these instances, the shooter does not own the weapon that was used - it belonged to another family member who legally purchased the weapon. So I can get behind stiff penalties for the family member that doesn't lock up their weapons up to and including being charged with murder or involuntary manslaughter. That would get the paretns involved and making tough decisions for the kid that is acting out at home (and many of these kids have done that).

These teens are high susceptible to what is being told to them by the "backing groups" pushing their agendas. A former neighbors daughter marched yesterday and posted a diatribe or Facebook that contained mostly inaccuracies about the whole gun issue. Her father is a conservative republican gun owner with a CCL and said he was proud of her marching and standing up for her beliefs but a number of her views were grossly inaccurate. She got the talking points from the people backing her march.

 

[lawndoctor]

But a slim majority is just that. And public opinion (and voting) can change.

A simple majority of the voting public will do absolutely nothing. We have a democratic republic, not a democracy. The constitution controls, not the mob. That was the whole point when Madison and the rest of them came up with the system.

What you are suggesting would require an amendment to our constitution, which would require a constitional convention, which would require much more than a simple majority just to convene the convention itself.

So under our system, thankfully, incremental variations in the majority view from time to time do not trump the constitution.

 

[Gofirstclass]

I think the 21 year old rule makes sense but then again many of these instances, the shooter does not own the weapon that was used - it belonged to another family member who legally purchased the weapon. So I can get behind stiff penalties for the family member that doesn't lock up their weapons up to and including being charged with murder or involuntary manslaughter.

I could strongly support the type of law you're talking about. From Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook School shooter on, many of these young men got ahold of guns that should have been locked up so they did not have access to them. IIRC Adam Lanza's gun was kept in a gun safe but he knew the combination, and his parents knew that he knew the combination. They also knew he had mental issues.

So why did he have the combination? Why, knowing he had mental health issues, did they allow him access to a firearm?

Many of the school shooters got firearms that belonged to parents and used those guns, but I don't recall any of those "responsible adults" being charged with crimes. Maybe if that were done on a regular basis these irresponsible adults might start securing their weapons.

 

[northern]

I saw a cartoon once when the US was setting the constitution. It was a hot day and one person said we need to cool down. To that one said we need to wear short sleeve shirts. And that is how the US citizens got the wright to bear arms.

 

[Creekwood]

A simple majority of the voting public will do absolutely nothing. We have a democratic republic, not a democracy. The constitution controls, not the mob. That was the whole point when Madison and the rest of them came up with the system.

What you are suggesting would require an amendment to our constitution, which would require a constitional convention, which would require much more than a simple majority just to convene the convention itself.

So under our system, thankfully, incremental variations in the majority view from time to time do not trump the constitution.

Hey, you know your laws better than I do. I have no idea what it takes to amend it, or even if it needs to be amended. Virtually every state has laws that "interpret" the 2nd amendment. Some have concealed carry laws, some do not. Some have restrictions on how, who, when and where guns can be bought. Are all those unconstitutional? (I know, I know, the NRA has taken states to court over them from time to time).

Anyway, my point is laws are written based on the people's will and democracy. And politicians and law makers make decisions in order to stay elected by the various majorities. So you can nit pick the details, but the fact is that laws change when the democratic majority decides they need to change.