"What is wrong" was already asked....

[Gofirstclass]

A thread from a couple of days ago asked "What is wrong" with our country. Why are we having so many mass shootings, and why in schools?

Let me preface my remarks by saying this: I'm a gun owner and have been for 50 some years. I've shot in pistol competitions, am a retired cop, gunsmith and am an NRA Life Member. I own several handguns, a couple of shotguns and rifles including an AR-15. I have a LEOSA card (google it) which allows me to legally carry a gun in all 50 states though I seldom carry a concealed weapon.

The recent spate of mass shootings, especially in the schools, has caused me to think about an answer to the "What is wrong" question.

A couple of days ago a Florida teacher who was named Teacher Of The Year posted on Facebook a lengthy message that I believe provides an answer to that question as well as any other article or posting I have read.

Here is the guts of what she posted. I'll provide a link below so you can read the entire posting. I think it's worth the few minutes it would take to read it and the hours you might spend thinking about what Kelly Guthrie Raley wrote:

“Until we, as a country, are willing to get serious and talk about mental health issues, lack of available care for the mental health issues, lack of discipline in the home, horrendous lack of parental support when the schools are trying to control horrible behavior at school (oh no! Not MY KID. What did YOU do to cause my kid to react that way?), lack of moral values, and yes, I’ll say it – violent video games that take away all sensitivity to ANY compassion for others’ lives – as well as reality TV that makes it commonplace for people to constantly scream up in each others’ faces and not value any other person but themselves, we will have a gun problem in school,”

Here's the link to the article:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/1...ce-post-goes-viral-after-school-shooting.html

What say you?

 

[Lazy Daze]

Dead on. I think that is well said. I don't really agree with the video game statement, but the rest I do. I mean, didn't most of us play that type of game when we were kids out in the neighborhood? Cops-n-robbers... Cowboys-n-Indians... etc. Sometimes even with BB guns -- "No more than two pumps, though!" But I hadn't though about the (un)reality shows - that's a good point, especially when much of that is scripted.

 

[sbw1]

I grew up in the 60's when my fellow college students were protesting the war and burning buildings. Many of our parents were affluent and we were privileged compared to prior generations. In a nutshell, my generation rejected many of the values of our parents and grandparents. This was a huge mistake. Of course, this is an over simplification but is generally true in my view. One of our legacies has been to raise a generation of progressive children who embrace progressive ways of dong things. It has not worked out so well, but our country is what it is until a new generation institutes changes. My grand children are 14 years old. Maybe their children will begin to right the terrible wrongs in our country. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see the children of the 60's generation being able to change the current practices. They are too old now and the job is too huge. Their children, (my grand children) may be the first to fight for the needed changes. That will require sacrifice, and it will be a tough slog.

 

[dwna1a]

I think she is spot on as does my wife! She is a National Board Certified Ed, Ld, MR teacher. Her remark to all this has been this. Most kids, once they go thru the school system are just lost in the mental health care system.

If she makes it thru a week without a parent chewing her out... The things she comes home and tells me things that have happened in the past.

 

[northern]

Very well put by the teacher. The solution is not gun control but people control. Perhaps if those buying guns needed a letter from their doctor stating they are of sound mind and body fewer unstable people would buy guns. Then every 5 years the owners would need the doctor to confirm their mental condition. It would be a pain for the good guys but it might save lives. If there was a shooting the doctor better have some good backup why he issued the letter.

 

[bbwhitejr]

She is spot on. I grew up in the south during desegregation. I was in the 4th grade when the NC schools were desegregated. As I progressed and grew up, fights between the races were not uncommon,but they were fist fights. There was never a thought of a knife or a gun. Above it is mentioned we lost some or a lot of the beliefs our parents and grandparents. No one protested WW1 or WW2. Not saying Vietnam was a good or bad thing, but the discipline started to slip then. We allowed prayer to be banned in public schools and we took discipline away from the teachers.

Agree...this is a parent thing-a people thing-not a gun thing. How do we keep those who do not need a gun from getting a gun? There are far to many parents that think their kids are their “friends” and have never heard of discipline. What responsibility do the legal guardians have for the actions of the kid in FL? A dog owner has more responsibility for his pet than a parent for their kids.

I do not think our country has what it takes to take a stand because it will offend too many. Because of that...we do nothing.

Bennett

 

[2000SR380]

Great thread, good questions, good input. I agree the problem is not the guns. There is work to do on who can buy a gun. But, as a gun owner myself, I do lean toward protecting the 2nd amendment. My go-to statement is : 'in the history of the world a gun has never killed anybody all by itself'. Living in California you can see where "Common sense" gun control has made it near impossible to legally carry a gun. Even with a Captains License, TWIC identification and working in the inner city Richmond "Hub Zone", I can not get a concealed carry permit. It is not legal for me to carry a loaded gun in my car unless it is locked in the trunk. I do not mind the test required to purchase a new firearm, and I do not mind the waiting period. I totally agree that felons, and people on the spectrum, should be prevented from owning guns. I would even be in favor of having to get licensed to purchase, or operate, a fire arm. But the teachers letter hit on where (I think) the real problem is festering. As a civilization our countries collective moral compass has gone spiraling out of whack. There is no more "news" there is just propaganda. Because we do not want "News", we do not care about truth, or honor, or integrity. Go to church? Work a 9-5? Live a good life? Help your neighbors? Die an obscure back-note to society. Shoot up a school and everyone in the Nation knows your name by lunch. Your picture will be on the 11 O-Clock news. My father and my father's father labored to make our country better. Worked long, and hard lives to push for a better life for their families. Believed in the "American Dream". Believed in a legacy of Freedom, and Liberty, and opportunity. They taught a work ethic, demanded truth, respected honor, and expected integrity. If they shook your hand it meant something. If they made a mistake they owned it. What do we teach our kids now? Who are our leaders? What do they stand for? I have carried a gun with me backpacking for nigh on 25 years now. Never shot anything but sticks, and cans. I carry a gun on my boat. Never needed it. Go to the range a few times a year, keep my gear clean and oiled. Better to be a quiet wolf than a dead sheep. I put my grandsons through the same martial arts school I attended. I taught them what my father taught me. "Walk away from a fight when you can, work hard, pay attention in school, conduct yourself with honor". I added my personal piece: "there will come a time in your life when you can not walk away. Maybe someone who is weak needs protecting. Maybe a bully will not allow you to turn away. When it happens, WIN."

 

[MonacoMike]

As a civilization our countries collective moral compass has gone spiraling out of whack. There is no more "news" there is just propaganda. Because we do not want "News", we do not care about truth, or honor, or integrity. ."

While other things mentioned above were dying in the 60's and 70's, the news then was being propagandized.

"According to one former North Vietnamese leader, Bui Tin, collapse of our political will was "essential to our strategy." The war could not be won militarily but it could be won at home with the help of anti-war activists and a hostile media In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, he said that visits from such anti-war advocates as Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses." In an interview with WSJ, he said "We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us." Ah, that's 'Hanoi Jane' who made a fortune from exercise videos from women who still don't know or care about her treason.
The Tet offensive is considered by many to be the turning point of the war. Why? ; Because Walter Cronkite returned from Vietnam and reported to the nation that the war was a losing cause. It was a lie but he knew how much influence he had and along with other treasonous Americans like Fonda and Clark, realized that the war could be won here. When LBJ said he could not continue the war because, "He'd lost Cronkite," the end was near and he refused to run for reelection."


Read more at http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0215/colon021715.php3#Ie3xGaVDUxh143VO.99

MM

 

[Razzle Dazzle]

No one but an active member of one of our military should be allowed an automatic weapon.

 

[Boat Guy]

This issue has weighed heavy on me....As I see so many posts on Facebook for gun control and reform. All these people that think they are the moral authority and know better how to protect our children and our way of life...Simple, just take away guns....

I ask myself, what have we become as a society when we leave everything to others...

Sadly, liberals think the majority of gun owners, like guns...They make the issue about the gun and not the true issue...Most gun owners would be happy to give up their guns, or any weapons, if we lived in a utopian world where everything is perfect. I certainly would prefer it...Yet, when I read history, and I see how much unrest there is in the world today, I feel I have more than just a right...I feel I have an obligation being a citizen of the US to defend and uphold the principles we were founded on. I simply believe that you need a government that works for the people and you need to protect yourself and your loved ones if the situation arises...I'm troubled by all the memes, and even the children they want to send up to Washington to force a change. While I respect the value of children and think they should be heard, I don't want a high school student setting policy. The world we live today, this millennial generation thinks they have all the answers.... I hope that some conservative values get instilled in these upcoming generations...I am on the front lines of trying to provide a change...Helping influence in a positive way...

 

[Gofirstclass]

Razzle Dazzle, by way of a clarification for you, fully automatic weapons are VERY difficult for the average Joe Citizen to own. It takes a lengthy process that culminates in the purchase of a $200 tax stamp per weapon, and only then can a fully automatic weapon, or one with a short barrel or a sound suppressor be legally owned.

Of course by definition, criminals, who are those who have shown a propensity to break laws, will be unlikely to obey new laws that restrict gun ownership.

 

[2000SR380]

While other things mentioned above were dying in the 60's and 70's, the news then was being propagandized.
MM

I will give you propaganda is not completely new in the United States. I am not saying control of the information is new, I am saying it is more accepted, and more prevalent. FOX tells outright lies everyday. MSNBC twists the facts so badly it makes your eyes bleed. CNN has been called the "Clinton News Network", and they are pretty one sided in their questions and interviews. Even NPR and BBC can not be relied on as a sole source of information. Make no mistake, I dislike Donald Trump. I think he is a back-stabbing, myopic, egotistical, retard. Who acts like a third grade bully. But if a CNN reporter saw him walk on water at Mar Lago, the report would be "Trump can't swim". Also, if you happen to LIKE Trump, I will respect your opinion. I will not call you out as "un-American", or question your IQ. That is why we vote. Being able to voice (and discuss) different opinions is as American as Boating, Hotdogs, Apple Pie or Chevrolet.
For the purposes of this thread, I think we just allow that it is "Normal" for the 'News' to present information that is factually incorrect, or deliberately bias. And that our elected officials just make stuff up. Then they insult, demean, and discredit anyone who dares to disagree. The FL teacher mentioned people screaming at each other on "reality TV", but I would call out politicians, news anchors, and talk show hosts, for laying the same message out there for kids to absorb: "reality TV that makes it commonplace for people to constantly scream up in each others’ faces and not value any other person but themselves". The lesson is: if you have money you can do whatever you want, if you do not have money you are powerless to resist, and the law can not help you. If you are powerful, and loud, your opinion is more valuable, and you are more likely to get your way. If you are a ruthless and narcissistic you can be the leader of the free world. If you are minority, or a woman, or a skinny looser in the back row at your High School, how do you become powerful? What options are there for fame or fortune? What chances of a happy successful life? If no one teaches a child how to work, how to behave, how to love, how to live with honor and courage? If no one teaches a child how to earn respect, and give respect to others without groveling? I think it is easy to see how mowing your way out of such a tragic life with an instrument of personal power might cross your mind. I grew up on the Rifleman, Have Gun will Travel, The Big Valley, and watching the Cartwright's defend the Ponderosa. It was a different age, there was usually a moral (or positive) message to be found in every episode. There were no violent video games. Television shows were different, and the "News" generally reported what happened, or what somebody witnessed. Not what they thought about what happened with panel to discuss what it might mean. They did not always get it right, but I felt like they tried to report the story, not write an op-ed story loosely based on actual events.

 

[Blueone]

If you are minority, or a woman, or a skinny looser in the back row at your High School, how do you become powerful? What options are there for fame or fortune? What chances of a happy successful life? If no one teaches a child how to work, how to behave, how to love, how to live with honor and courage? If no one teaches a child how to earn respect, and give respect to others without groveling? I think it is easy to see how mowing your way out of such a tragic life with an instrument of personal power might cross your mind.

Wow.... Why would you say "mowing your way out of such a tragic life with an instrument of personal power might cross your mind"... What is wrong with you?... Hopefully nothing?

The answer to the first part of this statement I took out of your post on how do you become powerful and have a successful life.. Is you work your butt off... You find something you like or your good at and learn it inside and out and don't stop for 20 years... Blaming no one teaches you this is bullshit.. That's just an excuse... Everyone wants to do a good job... Get the phuck up and do it.

 

[Blueone]

.Most gun owners would be happy to give up their guns, or any weapons, if we lived in a utopian world where everything is perfect. I certainly would prefer it...Yet, when I read history, and I see how much unrest there is in the world today, I feel I have more than just a right...I feel I have an obligation being a citizen of the US to defend and uphold the principles we were founded on. I simply believe that you need a government that works for the people and you need to protect yourself and your loved ones if the situation arises....

I don't know how you argue with this statement.. Well said.

 

[CliffA]

so what happens if we are successful in eliminating guns altogether (which I know won't happen in reality) through regulations?....

guns are not the only way people can kill other people if they really want to....bombs, knives, chemicals, cars, etc.....how would we regulate those types of things?....guns are just a quick and convenient and very effective method for conducting mass killings but if they are taken away we should not fool ourselves into believing the problem will go away....

cliff

 

[M Prod]

so what happens if we are successful in eliminating guns altogether (which I know won't happen in reality) through regulations?....

guns are not the only way people can kill other people if they really want to....bombs, knives, chemicals, cars, etc.....how would we regulate those types of things?....guns are just a quick and convenient and very effective method for conducting mass killings but if they are taken away we should not fool ourselves into believing the problem will go away....

cliff

So nothing should be done since criminals will find a way regardless? In that same vain then why do we have any laws at all? That makes no sense. I don’t think anyone is trying to take away guns in the US as much as Fox News would love you to believe that’s the liberal agenda ...however common sense gun laws do work and are proven to have worked in other countries like here (Canada). The US is the only country in the world where this kind of gun violence happens on such a regular basis and the one key difference between here and there are the gun laws. If you’re on a terror watch list in the US for instance, you can’t get on a plane, but you can buy a gun no problem. That’s madness in my opinion. I suppose stricter gun control can never work in the US right? It’s just a different culture, right? They said the same about slavery in the 1850’s when the rest of the world had already abolished it.

 

[CliffA]

So nothing should be done since criminals will find a way regardless? In that same vain then why do we have any laws at all? That makes no sense. I don’t think anyone is trying to take away guns in the US as much as Fox News would love you to believe that’s the liberal agenda ...however common sense gun laws do work and are proven to have worked in other countries like here (Canada). The US is the only country in the world where this kind of gun violence happens on such a regular basis and the one key difference between here and there are the gun laws. If you’re on a terror watch list in the US for instance, you can’t get on a plane, but you can buy a gun no problem. That’s madness in my opinion. I suppose stricter gun control can never work in the US right? It’s just a different culture, right? They said the same about slavery in the 1850’s when the rest of the world had already abolished it.

I'm just saying we can regulate ourselves to death but if we don't address the root cause the problem will never go away.....sure there are likely things that can be done through regulations that will improve the problem to a degree and I agree that would be a great thing if just one life would be saved through those efforts....

but if we really want to make a significant impact in eradicating the issue we need to address the root cause which is human behavior and mental health...

cliff

 

[LTD.330]

If you want to get to the root cause of the problem we will have to talk about the elephant in the room. It is the little sh!ts (both boys and girls) isolating, belittling, and ignoring their fellow students. It clearly has a detrimental effect. They should start living the tolerance they preach.

 

[CliffA]

If you want to get to the root cause of the problem we will have to talk about the elephant in the room. It is the little sh!ts (both boys and girls) isolating, belittling, and ignoring their fellow students. It clearly has a detrimental effect. They should start living the tolerance they preach.

yep.....that refers to addressing 'human behavior' I mentioned above.....

regulations are just band aids......we need to stop the bleeding so band aids are not needed.....

cliff

 

[Great Lakes]

...however common sense gun laws do work and are proven to have worked in other countries like here (Canada). The US is the only country in the world where this kind of gun violence happens on such a regular basis and the one key difference between here and there are the gun laws.

What common sense gun law would've prevented this? We already have laws on the books so another layer of bureaucracy isn't going to help, it'll just let people feel warm and fuzzy inside. We need to enforce the laws on the books already, that's all! Perfect example is Chicago. The strictest gun laws in the US and look how that is turning out. Laws just inhibit the law abiding citizens, not the criminals.

If guns are the issue... The car is the problem not the drunk driver. The bomb is the the problem not the terrorist. The whole pizza is the problem not me..

The Florida guy was crazy. He showed every sign of it. Was reported twice to FBI. It still happened. Even if you remove the 2nd amendment, which liberals and criminals would love, he would've found a way to make his mark on society.