"What is wrong" was already asked....

Gofirstclass said:
Blue, I'm not sure it's a matter of winning or losing. Rather, it's more of a matter of an open exchange of ideas, of being able to hear and understand an opposing opinion. Maybe this discussion will change someone's mind, maybe not. At our ages we're pretty set in our opinions and beliefs.

Now, after this thread has gone well over 200 posts, let me pose a question to all of you:

Given that criminals, by their nature, have shown they are not likely to obey laws, what common sense anti-gun legislation would you propose that (a) would not unduly hinder the lawful acts of lawful citizens; and, (b) the criminals would likely obey.
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Given the original topic of the thread, school shootings, I'd think preventing them is the goal. But....can we even begin when we're confined to just 'lawful' and 'criminal'. Your question doesn't allow for answers. In it you've already determined criminals won't obey, the lawful won't be hindered, and the legislation will be anti-gun.
 
Gofirstclass said:
Blue, I'm not sure it's a matter of winning or losing. Rather, it's more of a matter of an open exchange of ideas, of being able to hear and understand an opposing opinion. Maybe this discussion will change someone's mind, maybe not. At our ages we're pretty set in our opinions and beliefs.

Now, after this thread has gone well over 200 posts, let me pose a question to all of you:

Given that criminals, by their nature, have shown they are not likely to obey laws, what common sense anti-gun legislation would you propose that (a) would not unduly hinder the lawful acts of lawful citizens; and, (b) the criminals would likely obey.
Click to expand...
Very tough questions. I feel we have enough laws that regulate gun ownership.
(a) definitely won't fix everything but start being more diligent of anyone suspected of mental illness type issues. If there have ever been any mental illness issues or flags then they must complete an evaluation process to be cleared to purchase guns. I'm sure this would be a HIPAA violation but what's more important here?
If a crime is committed with any type of deadly weapon (gun, knife, screwdriver, bomb, broken bottle, etc) it is an automatic minimum sentence (maybe start at 10 years and going up depending on circumstances)
(b) nothing. Criminals will never obey laws. And if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

There have been enough laws passed and regulations put into place that have not solved it. Adding more will not help. I do think that unless you have a CCW then there is a mandatory 5 day waiting period. If you can't wait 5 days then something isn't right (there can be exceptions made by a judge in exigent circumstances where self defense may be imminent).

I think more importantly we need to teach people how to behave in conflict. Like was said earlier, kids today don't have to deal with adversity or failing. I saw it firsthand. I went to a community college and a kid sitting beside me played games the whole class on his computer then asked me for help when we had an assignment. He got to take his tests in a separate room with a tutor. He graduated with the same degree as me. I doubt he ever got a job in our field and if he did I'm sure he didn't last.
My wife is a teacher at a school full of kids that struggle to graduate. Not because they are dumb. I don't believe in smart people or dumb people. I believe in motivated people and unmotivated people. There are kids graduating from her school that can't read because they got an IEP when they were younger because they didn't want to do homework so mommy came to the school and claimed her kid had a learning disability. Now that kid doesn't have to do homework and when he has a test it is multiple choice and 2 answers are crossed out. The school is afraid to fail them because they are afraid of getting into legal trouble so they graduate kids that can't pass a simple test. These kids were never required to put forth any effort in anything so when they get into the real world they can't cope. They have never learned those skills. This whole participation trophy thing is doing a disservice to these kids. They have seriously NEVER had to earn anything.

Dunno. Just throwing it out there. Would these ideas help? Who knows.
 
Havana Shamrock said:
My response to Creekwood was sooo long i gave up, ill just say i thank GOD himself that Killary didnt make it.
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I am conservative/right wing. If I were an American I would be a republican. You should have been able to put a better Republican POTUS in place. Its sad. Your emperor has no clothes.
 
Blueone said:
Soooo .... 14 pages ... Have you guys got this figured out yet?
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Creekwood said:
It can't be fixed. Its too late. Too many guns out there in too many hands. The only solution is more guns. And a law that says that you can kill someone that is a criminal or might be a criminal. Then after a few years, no more problems. Sure, a few mistakes will be made.............
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Sarcasm and passive aggressive comments have no place in an open discussion where people are actively trying to share ideas and communicate. Seriously, what does it accomplish?

Will we solve the problem of mentally ill people getting their hands on weapons? Probably not, but through a civil, open discussion, where all are respected, we might move a step closer.
 
We need to start enforcing the gun laws that are on the books. When someone commits a crime with a gun. Punish them with the full force of the law. In the state of Indiana I believe 95% of criminals receive plea bargains. You do a crime with a gun NO PLEA AGREEMENTS.

I know this isn’t realistic with the ACLU and lawyers. I think if you commit a crime with a gun, mandatory 25 years. No time off for good behavior. If you are using a gun while committing a crime, as far as I’m concerned it is attempted murder. Whether a shot was fired not.
 
Creekwood said:
I am conservative/right wing. If I were an American I would be a republican. You should have been able to put a better Republican POTUS in place. Its sad. Your emperor has no clothes.
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This I will agree with you on. I just think that 1/2 the American public where sick of the Washington Good Ole boys
And needed something different ANYTHING.
So now we have Trump is he perfect? By no means but I wanted someone to shake things up a bit also.
 
As far as the President. I wanted to make absolutely certain that there was a Republican in office when it came time to nominate any Supreme Court Justices to the bench.

A President can affect the country for years. But a Supreme Court Justice could be in office for 4 decades and have an affect on the country for centuries.

Is it affect or effect? I get confused. :)
 
I'm a bit put off by our election system. Essentially we ended up with an ego-maniac running against a felon.

The biggest hurdle to getting good candidates to run for national office is that as soon as they throw their name in the ring the muck raking starts. IMO nobody is a saint. But if a candidate screwed around on his wife 20+ years ago, so what, as long as he hasn't done it in the last 10 years or so.

Personally, I think this is the last Republican POTUS we'll see for many years. With all the giveaway programs in place to create undocumented democrats it's going to be an uphill battle. If the Dems had thrown in a candidate that was ANYBODY other than Hillary, that candidate would have won hands down.

But back to my earlier question, I don't see mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes being the answer. In a perfect world, yes, that would be a possible solution. But as long as those mandatory minimums are negotiable in plea bargaining sessions, that's just one more thing to toss out if the bad guy will plead to a serious crime.

Believe me, in my law enforcement career I fought that many, many times. Lost most of those arguments but managed to keep a few in place on the more horrific crimes.
 
Gofirstclass said:
Blue, I'm not sure it's a matter of winning or losing. Rather, it's more of a matter of an open exchange of ideas, of being able to hear and understand an opposing opinion. Maybe this discussion will change someone's mind, maybe not. At our ages we're pretty set in our opinions and beliefs.

Now, after this thread has gone well over 200 posts, let me pose a question to all of you:

Given that criminals, by their nature, have shown they are not likely to obey laws, what common sense anti-gun legislation would you propose that (a) would not unduly hinder the lawful acts of lawful citizens; and, (b) the criminals would likely obey.
Click to expand...
Not may suggestions coming, maybe it's because lawful gunowners don't want to be 'hindered'. In the meantime....

We got students, teachers, custodians with balls enough to take on active shooters, true badasses that say fck you and your gun. They've had some success but some of them died trying. Fort Christ's sake in one school they have buckets of rocks to throw if a shooter enters their classroom....and we aren't coming up with anything at all to help.

The bear has been poked. 4 million new voters every year and most of them aren't going to be NRA members.

http://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/sheriff-custodian-stopped-school-shooting

http://www.12news.com/article/news/nation-now/watch-heroic-student-stops-a-campus-shooter/245022872

https://nypost.com/2017/09/13/heroic-student-killed-during-school-shooting-tried-to-stop-gunman/

https://www.littlethings.com/math-teacher-hero/

http://wnep.com/2018/03/22/superint...rmed-with-rocks-in-case-of-a-school-shooting/
 
Boater420 said:
Sarcasm and passive aggressive comments have no place in an open discussion.
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Oh please.... Your in a boating forum. Ignore the commercials if they bother you and carry on.
 
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Gofirstclass said:
Your post is pretty typical of a liberal response to many issues: "If I don't like it, it should be taken away". That's a response to gun control too.

My suggestion is this: If you don't like this thread don't open it and read it.

Similarly, if you don't like guns, don't buy one.
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Actually I am a Republican and I own a bunch of guns I have a large gun case safe that is full and I'm going to have to buy a new one I have assault rifles I have War rifles from World War II I have all the goodies I'm not a liberal so kiss my ass.
 
I'm sorry I did not realize it was the Tiki Bar my apologies I certainly do not mean to offend you I am a big gun advocate and republican. O liberal. I own lots of guns. I go to this site strictly on a daily basis and I call up new post only I don't search by category and this keeps coming up day after day and it's just a BS thread. I contribute to the form on boating issues not personal not private not political that's not how I roll sorry you're offended and I didn't mean to take your rights away
 
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Boater420 said:
It doesn't need to be a "boating" related topic to be discussed in the Tiki Bar. A quick review of the Forum Topics located on the home page should clear up any confusion you may have.

Additionally, it's not a requirement of the forum to read every topic that shows up. You are more than welcome to skip over any topic you feel isn't boating related.
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No kidding who would have imagined that I wouldn't have to open and read evey post , which I have never done. Who would ?
 
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Boater420 said:
Sarcasm and passive aggressive comments have no place in an open discussion where people are actively trying to share ideas and communicate. Seriously, what does it accomplish?
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Sorry if you were offended by sarcasm. Ironically, I was more worried I would get responses that agreed with me! (I am willing to bet that there are a substantial number that do).

But to answer your question, my sarcasm is a way to replay the exact view that I am hearing and get attention to the message by exaggerating the delivery of the comment. My saying "the only solution to the gun issue is to have more guns" was what many have said in the US, just stated more succinctly. My sarcastic "new law statement to allow Americans to kill criminals" is basically what many have said on this board when they say that "no one better come in my house" or "no one better come on my boat".

And I added the "suspected criminals" to the post too, to make a point. If the US goes down the "more guns in more places" path, then the US will be full of people with guns, teachers will have guns and there are officers in every school and mall and concert with guns. And someone at a school will yell "He has a gun" and some poor nervous teacher will kill a kid that did not have a gun. Or a trigger happy mall cop will kill someone running away. Mistakes will be made. They are made now, and more guns will mean more mistakes. Its a trade off of a decision that Americans have already made and will decide to continue or change. That is your choice. Just make sure you understand and are willing to accept all aspects of the trade-offs when you decide. As Dirty Harry once said "Do you feel lucky...." (Nice gun reference eh? One of the best movie lines ever by the way)

So what does it accomplish? This dialogue. That is what it accomplishes.

Boater420 said:
Will we solve the problem of mentally ill people getting their hands on weapons? Probably not, but through a civil, open discussion, where all are respected, we might move a step closer.
Click to expand...

Mental illness (and radicalism, which is likely not "clinically" mental illness) will always be around. And because it they are not binary determinations, that problem cannot be solved. For example, depression is mental illness. I think its like 10-15% of Americans take anti-depressants. Some of them may be at the end of the scale that should not have guns. The majority its a non-issue. So where is the line? Some bipolar people are 100% functional on their meds and not violent when off them. Where is the line? Same with radicalism. Easy to spot in its extreme, but what about the blurred line between activism and radicalism? Tough problems.

I do agree that civil open discussion is needed. And despite my sarcasm, I am very open minded (about some things, my wife would say) and I always try to truly understand views that oppose mine. If you read back my posts, I never take a view that someone else's opinion is "wrong". By definition an opinion cannot be wrong. It is what it is.

But before you can solve a problem with open dialogue, you have to agree, first that there is a problem, and then to actually agree on what the problem is.

The radical 2nd amendment side seems to take the position that there is no problem. So for those of you that are in that camp, "Man up" and say that these school shootings, the Vegas shooting, etc. are not symptoms of a problem. Things are fine they way they are. Or if you think there may be something that needs to be fixed, actually help define the problem.

I hear lots of arguments that the mass shootings and high gun death/crime issue is somehow tied to the downfall of American society. REALLY? I refuse to believe that. America is still a fundamentally great country. But if that is what some of you believe, then you need to get back to first principles established by your founders and re-read ALL the parts of the constitution and make sure that every one of them is ingrained in everything that is American.
 
I think this type of discussion is important, valuable, and hopefully enlightening and informative for people regardless of their stance on the subject. Open dialogue is what is needed to make things better.

If one truly wants to make an informed decision on something or find a solution to a complicated problem, a critical step is for all viewpoints to be openly considered and understood by all stakeholders, regardless of their position on the topic. They all have merit. Closed-mindedness and narrow thought processes are unproductive. It's paramount that decisions and firm opinions not be formed based on legacy, emotions, personal experiences that are not typical, or information or data that has been massaged or twisted to fit one's desired outcome. It is almost never a case of one side being completely correct, and one completely wrong.

It's also important to not make presumptions. It's probably not hard to see that my belief is that more guns make things worse, and most would presume I am a liberal. However, I grew-up farming, shot lots of things (living and not), and have never voted Liberal in my life. Many that know me personally would go so far as to say I am a redneck! I would most likely be a Republican in the US (although I would never let a party label determine how I vote). Regardless, I trust, given the fine individuals on this forum, that my opinions, views, and thoughts are respected and not judged with any prejudice.

I admit some of the thinking I read here is incredibly backwards to me. But I am also open to the possibility that the reason I think this is due to my own lack of knowledge or even ignorance. Maybe, just maybe, I am wrong! Imagine THAT, eh?

That said, I see both sides of the equation on guns, see the value in playing devil's advocate for both, and pass no judgement whatsoever on anyone (well, I try not to...it can be hard!), even though the problem is crystal clear to me personally (but the solution is not).
 
Blueone said:
Oh please.... Your in a boating forum. Ignore the commercials if they bother you and carry on.
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Just to be clear this was directed at "420's" comment... who's post mysteriously disappeared ???...
 
lawndoctor said:
Maybe there are some lessons from what has been happening in Brazil. They banned guns around 2004. In 2012 they had the highest rate of gun violence in 35 years. People have actually protested to get their gun rights back. Here is what Bloomberg and NPR have said about it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...s-strict-gun-laws-haven-t-stopped-its-killers
https://www.npr.org/sections/parall...arly-60-000-murders-and-it-may-relax-gun-laws
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Brazil is not like the US in any way shape or form. Do you really think that this comparison makes any sense? We do business in Brazil. I know of what I speak.

Maybe the Australian experience, but not Brazil.
 
Creekwood said:
Brazil is not like the US in any way shape or form. Do you really think that this comparison makes any sense? We do business in Brazil. I know of what I speak. Maybe the Australian experience, but not Brazil.
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Interested in what people think, that’s why I posted it. Personally, I think there are plenty of areas in the US that compare more closely to Brazil (and Mexico) than to Australia.
 
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