Turbo problem....

Just another follow up on the turbochargers........the sea trial record on the VODIA came through. The max. RPM during the trial was 2652 rev. where the boost pressure was 20.3 psi, boost temp. 109 F, Coolant temp. 181 F, Fuel @ 9.4 gal / hr., Fuel temp. 108 F, relative load 100%, rod position 75, system voltage 13.9 volts.
Apart from replacing the turbochargers any suggestion that I should also look into?

Richard
 
Hi Richard,

I have a question. Have you changed props size at any stage?

Below is a comparison of your VODIA report with my VODIA report which might be of some interest. The first figure on each line is from your report but I'm not sure if it is from your starboard or port engine. The second and third figures on each line are from my report. Caution should be used when comparing the second figure on each line since this was a sample of engine parameters as the engine accelearted through 2791 RPM. There may therefore be some 'lag' in some of the results for that RPM for eg, boost pressure and boost temp.

RPM 2652 (Richard-WOT)/ 2791 (Terry -accelerating)/ 3900 (Terry WOT)
Boost pressure-PSI 20.3 /17.5 /24
Boost Temp 109F/86F/106F
Coolant Temp 181F/170F/178F
Fuel Rate US Gal/hr 9.4 /11.8/14
Fuel Temp 108 F/91.4F/97F
Rod Position 75/76/77

I'm no expert but I don't see anything too abnormal except perhaps a high coolant temperture for 2652 RPM. Importantly, the turbo boost pressure seems an appropriate value for an engine running at 2652 RPM when compared to an engine running at 3900 RPM, ie the turbo/s seem to be delivering the goods.

Your photo's do show a turbo that is sooty and needs to be cleaned but that doesn't translate to being replaced. Im with douglee25 on this one:

"You would have to do a hell of a lot of idling for the turbo's to become that carboned up. In fact, with your engines being electronic, there really shouldn't be an issue."


It's that "electronic" issue which I think needs addressing. If fuel quality has not been an issue, ie you haven't picked up some bad fuel somewhere, then something is sooting up these turbos but that doesn't make them bad turbos. It just makes them turbos that need to be cleaned earlier that might otherwise be expected. But, there may be some sensor not working right so that the electronic diesel control EDC (the computer) gets the wrong information and compensates by making the air fuel mixture richer and, downgrades engine RPM (on both engines as it is designed to do) as part of the fault. The problem is similtaneous with both engines, and whatever that problem is, my bet is that it has caused both turbos to soot up.

I would not be throwing money at new turbos just yet. I would be taking a closer look at the EDC system first otherwise you risk paying for new turbos only to have them soot up again in another 100 hours.

Cleaning the barnacles off the bottom should help as well!


Regards


Terry
 
Last edited:
Richard,
Late responce but I'm with the guys to not replacing the turbos. You should first clean them and replace the service kits. Also by cleaning the turbos you'll see that any wear inside of them.
Before throwing huge $s x2 try the inexpensive way.
Best regards.
Melida
 
Lord Farringdon said:
Hi Richard,

I have a question. Have you changed props size at any stage?

Below is a comparison of your VODIA report with my VODIA report which might be of some interest. The first figure on each line is from your report but I'm not sure if it is from your starboard or port engine. The second and third figures on each line are from my report. Caution should be used when comparing the second figure on each line since this was a sample of engine parameters as the engine accelearted through 2791 RPM. There may therefore be some 'lag' in some of the results for that RPM for eg, boost pressure and boost temp.

RPM 2652 (Richard-WOT)/ 2791 (Terry -accelerating)/ 3900 (Terry WOT)
Boost pressure-PSI 20.3 /17.5 /24
Boost Temp 109F/86F/106F
Coolant Temp 181F/170F/178F
Fuel Rate US Gal/hr 9.4 /11.8/14
Fuel Temp 108 F/91.4F/97F
Rod Position 75/76/77

I'm no expert but I don't see anything too abnormal except perhaps a high coolant temperture for 2652 RPM. Importantly, the turbo boost pressure seems an appropriate value for an engine running at 2652 RPM when compared to an engine running at 3900 RPM, ie the turbo/s seem to be delivering the goods.

Your photo's do show a turbo that is sooty and needs to be cleaned but that doesn't translate to being replaced. Im with douglee25 on this one:

"You would have to do a hell of a lot of idling for the turbo's to become that carboned up. In fact, with your engines being electronic, there really shouldn't be an issue."


It's that "electronic" issue which I think needs addressing. If fuel quality has not been an issue, ie you haven't picked up some bad fuel somewhere, then something is sooting up these turbos but that doesn't make them bad turbos. It just makes them turbos that need to be cleaned earlier that might otherwise be expected. But, there may be some sensor not working right so that the electronic diesel control EDC (the computer) gets the wrong information and compensates by making the air fuel mixture richer and, downgrades engine RPM (on both engines as it is designed to do) as part of the fault. The problem is similtaneous with both engines, and whatever that problem is, my bet is that it has caused both turbos to soot up.

I would not be throwing money at new turbos just yet. I would be taking a closer look at the EDC system first otherwise you risk paying for new turbos only to have them soot up again in another 100 hours.

Cleaning the barnacles off the bottom should help as well!


Regards


Terry
Click to expand...
Hi Terry,

Thank you for your advice.

I had one prop changed about a year ago on the port side. It was slightly damaged. As far as I knew, it was the same size #5 as the original I think.

The data that I shown was from the STDB engine, the worse one of the two.

I am in the U.S. right now so I won't be able to dig up the pressure reference data from Volvo. But it really makes me wonder that your data is not that far from mine and you are running perfectly ok.

What I think I will do after I got back is to have the turbo and after cooler cleaned as well as the bottom of the boat and see.

Thanks guys.

Richard
 
melida said:
Richard,
Late responce but I'm with the guys to not replacing the turbos. You should first clean them and replace the service kits. Also by cleaning the turbos you'll see that any wear inside of them.
Before throwing huge $s x2 try the inexpensive way.
Best regards.
Melida
Click to expand...
Melida,

I see if I'll be able to pick up a service kit here. That will keep me busy for this winter!

Thanks guys.

Richard
 
Lord Farringdon said:
Hi Richard,

I have a question. Have you changed props size at any stage?

Below is a comparison of your VODIA report with my VODIA report which might be of some interest. The first figure on each line is from your report but I'm not sure if it is from your starboard or port engine. The second and third figures on each line are from my report. Caution should be used when comparing the second figure on each line since this was a sample of engine parameters as the engine accelearted through 2791 RPM. There may therefore be some 'lag' in some of the results for that RPM for eg, boost pressure and boost temp.

RPM 2652 (Richard-WOT)/ 2791 (Terry -accelerating)/ 3900 (Terry WOT)
Boost pressure-PSI 20.3 /17.5 /24
Boost Temp 109F/86F/106F
Coolant Temp 181F/170F/178F
Fuel Rate US Gal/hr 9.4 /11.8/14
Fuel Temp 108 F/91.4F/97F
Rod Position 75/76/77

I'm no expert but I don't see anything too abnormal except perhaps a high coolant temperture for 2652 RPM. Importantly, the turbo boost pressure seems an appropriate value for an engine running at 2652 RPM when compared to an engine running at 3900 RPM, ie the turbo/s seem to be delivering the goods.

Your photo's do show a turbo that is sooty and needs to be cleaned but that doesn't translate to being replaced. Im with douglee25 on this one:

"You would have to do a hell of a lot of idling for the turbo's to become that carboned up. In fact, with your engines being electronic, there really shouldn't be an issue."


It's that "electronic" issue which I think needs addressing. If fuel quality has not been an issue, ie you haven't picked up some bad fuel somewhere, then something is sooting up these turbos but that doesn't make them bad turbos. It just makes them turbos that need to be cleaned earlier that might otherwise be expected. But, there may be some sensor not working right so that the electronic diesel control EDC (the computer) gets the wrong information and compensates by making the air fuel mixture richer and, downgrades engine RPM (on both engines as it is designed to do) as part of the fault. The problem is similtaneous with both engines, and whatever that problem is, my bet is that it has caused both turbos to soot up.

I would not be throwing money at new turbos just yet. I would be taking a closer look at the EDC system first otherwise you risk paying for new turbos only to have them soot up again in another 100 hours.

Cleaning the barnacles off the bottom should help as well!


Regards


Terry
Click to expand...
Hi Terry,

Can't wait till to get home. I just dug up the turbo data from VP (attached). The charge pressure wasn't that far off the data sheet. I will call VP guys tomorrow and ask a few questions...


Richard
 
Richard,
We have a term at Volvo, "run them like you don't love them". Volvo's need to be at operating temp and run hard to stay clean. Also the more sulfur based fuel you use the harder you need to run them. Here in the NA low sulfur fuel is the norm now so idling is becoming less of an issue.

Idling is a big issue with Volvo engines. They need to be run hard to keep them clean. The 300 is a performance engine and you will kill it if it idles at low operating temp all the time.

I would clean the carbon as the boost PSI does not look bad and the bearings are good and tight. Have the bottom cleaned then take her out and blow the carbon out. Once the engine is at operating temp you can idle back for a bit. Do not start the engine and let it idle then shut it off. You’ll have the same problem in 200 hours again.

Bill.
 
oldskool said:
richard,
we have a term at volvo, "run them like you don't love them". Volvo's need to be at operating temp and run hard to stay clean. Also the more sulfur based fuel you use the harder you need to run them. Here in the na low sulfur fuel is the norm now so idling is becoming less of an issue.

idling is a big issue with volvo engines. They need to be run hard to keep them clean. The 300 is a performance engine and you will kill it if it idles at low operating temp all the time.

i would clean the carbon as the boost psi does not look bad and the bearings are good and tight. Have the bottom cleaned then take her out and blow the carbon out. Once the engine is at operating temp you can idle back for a bit. Do not start the engine and let it idle then shut it off. You’ll have the same problem in 200 hours again.

bill.
Click to expand...

+100
 
Guys,

VP guys are still too busy to return my call. I want to see what their opinions on you guys suggestion. I also puzzzle on the Turbo charge pressure data between VP, Terry's and mine. According to VP data sheet at 1500 rpm = 17.9 psi, 2000 = 20.3, 2500 = 21.4, 3000 = 20.3, 3500 = 24.6, 3800 = 25.5, 3900 = 25.8 Looking at my at 2652 rpm (max that I could get at the sea trial) = 20.3 and Terry's 2791 rpm = 17.5, 3900 = 24. Our figures were not that far from the data unless 0.1 psi is really make that much different. Terry's boat is running perfect.......

Richard
 
I have taken the after coolers out and have them cleaned at last. The inserts were quite good I beleive. None of the pipes had any sign of blockage. There were only a little bit of dirt floating on the top. So I got one thing out of the way. Wait till the weather allows, I will have the bottom cleaned and painted......

Richard
 
Hi Richard, if you are still watching these threads? If so, how did you get on with your turbo problem? I'm sure Melida wants to know as well?:grin:


Terry
 
Lord Farringdon said:
Hi Richard, if you are still watching these threads? If so, how did you get on with your turbo problem? I'm sure Melida wants to know as well?:grin:


Terry
Click to expand...

Yep,
I'm too curious about Richard's Turbo's.
I guess making the turbos carbon free and cleaning the hull, legs, tabs and making barnacle free the props will solve the problem.
Richard let us know about the progression.
Best regards.
Melida
 
Guys,

I will definitely keep you posted what's happening. I am just waiting till the weather allows me to work on the boat. I can't wait myself either...

Happy New Year to you all!

Richard
 
Richard F said:
Guys,

I will definitely keep you posted what's happening. I am just waiting till the weather allows me to work on the boat. I can't wait myself either...

Happy New Year to you all!

Richard
Click to expand...

Waiting your progression impatiently which can give assistance to both of us (me and Terry) further possible problems or whats not to do.
Best regards.
Melida
 
Lord Farringdon said:
Thanks for the update Richard. Standing by :thumbsup:


Terry
Click to expand...
Terry, Melida, Guys who has been following this,

Can't wait till tomorrow to tell you the good news!

This weekend the weather allowed me to do some work on the boat..... I had her lifted out of the water on Friday morning and didn't I believe the state of the bottom of the boat. See the photos..... anyway after two days hard work, clean thoroughly, changed all the zinc's, anti-foul painted....+ the clean out on the inter-cooler earlier etc. I had the boat back into the water this afternoon.....it took no time to reach 2000 RPM and I tried a WOT .....got up to 3700 RPM no more than 15~20 sec. Done it! The 2 engines sound smooth only the port one pick up slightly slower than the STB .... not too worry now...I am just happy! Can't wait till next week if the weather is good again!

Richard :smt038
 
Richard,
Good to hear from you again and good to know your engines came back.
I thought that since my boat has single engine it became underpowered when the bottom is fouled, but your boat has twin KAD300 and its too much power for that boat also became underpowered when the bottom is dirty. I have a neighbour in summer marina just twin of your boat and he does 40+knots when the bottom is clean, but when dirty he dificulty reaches maximum 20 knots at 3000rpm.
So the key for not having accelaration problem is always keeping the engine well maintained and keeping the bottom always clean.
If you read my thread about accelaration problem, I did overhauled/cleaned/fixed/replaced every possbile part of engine could cause power loss and again had difficulty to get on plane and reach wot after mech did all job because of dirty bottom.
I strcictly recommend you if you use your boat all year, in off season at least once a two month dive and clean the legs, wipe the water line of sides and sand the props or have done it by a diver. Don't forget that props are moving the boat and if you dont clean the props even the entire bottom is clean you'll have again acceleration problem.
Hope to see some pics of your beatifull boat and engine bay and where you boating.
Best regards.
Melida
 
Last edited:
Glad to hear she running sweet again Richard and no need for new turbo's. That's gotta be a bonus!! I had an overheating problem as you know but a big strip down of all the coolers pretty well fixed that so I know what's it like to get a good result. I must make sure the bottom of my boat is cleaned. It's coming up for an anti-foul toward the end of this year.

As Melida says, where's your pics? Look forward to seeing your boat. Well done Richard and congrats on solving your problem.


Terry
 
Hi guys,

Too excited to attach the pics. I was also too eager to put her back into the water and didn't take many pics after the work was done. See these three pics I added to the attachment (before and after the work). If the weather is good this weekend, I will try to bring her out to an open sea and see. I was advice by VP last time that I can consider to change the propllors. Those that I am having will give more at high end but not picking up.

Richard
 

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Richard F said:
Hi guys,

Too excited to attach the pics. I was also too eager to put her back into the water and didn't take many pics after the work was done. See these three pics I added to the attachment (before and after the work). If the weather is good this weekend, I will try to bring her out to an open sea and see. I was advice by VP last time that I can consider to change the propllors. Those that I am having will give more at high end but not picking up.

Richard
Click to expand...

Whoaaaaa
Richard,
With this bottom scenery its a big success that engines reached 2300 rpm. It's like more than a year your boat is unattended.
I was shocked when my boat's bottom is just turned mudy brown, water lines started to green by algae and little barnacles on the props causes(d) to not planing. So when you clean your's you'll amaze with your boat's performance, it's gonna do like it has twin 496mags.
Best regards.
Melida
 
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