Turbo problem....

[OldSkool]

Man that's a ton of carbon!! A few things to check; is the turbine shaft tight with no side play? Does it turn freely? If the turbine fan is tight and the turbine turns freely then the turbo is most likely OK. If the turbo oil seal went bad, the thing would fog the marina out and you would be using a lot of engine oil.

That being said, high sulfur fuels could give you some build up but a restriction in the exhaust would give you the build up you are seeing. Where is the rust coming from around the exhaust flange? Are you get water back into the turbo?

I still don't have all the info I was looking for the first time I replied so I'm painting a pretty broad picture. One thing a VP can do is put the laptop on it and do some testing to verify the engine operation.

 

[BonBini]

Those turbo's look to be junk. Turbine wheel fins burnt out at the tips, hot housing burnt out also. See you need a semi tight clearance in there to transfer the exhaust pressure to spool the turbine. As you can plainly see, your loosing a boat load of exhaust pressure from all that metal burnt away.

So what the hell happened here. Too hot of exhaust temp from plugged aftercoolers? Too hot of exhaust temp from poor water flow through the aftercoolers?

 

[Richard F]

Bill,
The fans turn quite freely that's why I thought they were still ok. Now, do you think I need new turbos? They will be very expensive to get them here (VP). Do you think I can get them cheaper in the U.S. I will be travelling to the U.S. next month...
VP reckons the rust around the turbos are due to the boat stays in water at all time (our marina only allows boat under 25' to stay on dry berth).

Richard

 

[Richard F]

Those turbo's look to be junk. Turbine wheel fins burnt out at the tips, hot housing burnt out also. See you need a semi tight clearance in there to transfer the exhaust pressure to spool the turbine. As you can plainly see, your loosing a boat load of exhaust pressure from all that metal burnt away.

So what the hell happened here. Too hot of exhaust temp from plugged aftercoolers? Too hot of exhaust temp from poor water flow through the aftercoolers?

Ron,
Should these been checked by VP when they did the 200 hrs service few months ago. All those won't happen just over 3~4 months? would it? Looks like I have to have VP to come down to run a test....
Richard

 

[melida]

Richard,
Sorry for too late reply.
I was on the hook at the weekend with very low signal strength of cell phone, however I got your e-mails and thaught on them.
First of all I thaught you'd have this gauge for outdrive trim gaauge which my friends with 335DA's KAD44s and KAD300s equipped. Better then the 4in1 custom Searay gauges to see where is the drive. Maybe you should replace them. You must visually check the drives when they totally downed same time the gauges shows, haul out or dive.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af108/melida315/volvo%20penta%20C4%20prop%20set/768.jpg

Also do you have two of this button for trimming ?
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af108/melida315/volvo penta C4 prop set/trim.jpg

Secondly Volvo Penta EDC (later EVC) engines wich KAD300 is have the keypad as you'll see in below picture. Since my boat have single engine so I have 1 N (neutral) and 1 D(diagnose) button, your's is twin and respectively have two each of them. Between the N buttons you have = button means synchronise. If it's not pressed they are not synched, so firt try engine by engine without synch which one is revving how much.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af108/melida315/volvo penta C4 prop set/Grnt1453.jpg

When the D button(s) flashes 1.1 means no fault. While the problem you faced because of turbo is not alerted/shown by the D button. But if you'd have EDC display you'd see engine parameters especially boost pressure loss before making the turbos junk as seen in the pictures you've posted.

If you don't have EDC display must have this engine alarm display for each engine.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/...a C4 prop set/VolvoPentaAlarmPanelDisplay.jpg

I strictly suggest you to have the VP tech/mech onboard to attach VODIA for seeing the engine parmeters and/or if you're mechanically inclined take the turbo and aftercooler and clean them, also replace the repair/service kit of turbo, change the engine oils and filters, change the coolant/antifreeze and drain/clean heat exchangers to do before buying new turbos every possible less expensive spendings. This steps solved my acceleration problem but my turbo was not dirty as yours. I just serviced my turbo etc when I first felt engine was not/difficultly passing 2800-2900rpm.

If these wont help to pass 2300 rpm then get quote from marinpartsexpress.com for best online prices.

Hope this gives idea.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[Pietro]

Those turbo's look to be junk. Turbine wheel fins burnt out at the tips, hot housing burnt out also. See you need a semi tight clearance in there to transfer the exhaust pressure to spool the turbine. As you can plainly see, your loosing a boat load of exhaust pressure from all that metal burnt away.

So what the hell happened here. Too hot of exhaust temp from plugged aftercoolers? Too hot of exhaust temp from poor water flow through the aftercoolers?

The Turbos on the Volvos on my friend's Fairline look exactly the same :smt021... check for cracks in the casting too :wink:

 

[Richard F]

Melida,

1. No, I haven't got those Vovo guages to show the trim position. The original Sea Ray 4 in 1 are all I have on my boat.
2. Yes, I have those trim buttons for trimming.
3. Yes, I have the twin control panel. I have tried to run just on one engine (the other switched off completely) but I was restricted to 2000 revs only. It didn't make any difference on the problem even the " = " was on or not with both engines running.
4. Yes, I also have these alarm panels but the only time alarm ever went off was when the alternator belt was broken. I never received any alarm from the EDC before.

I will contact VP and see if they can come down to do a VODIA check.

Thanks,
Richard

 

[Richard F]

Thanks Pietro.

Richard

 

[OldSkool]

What operating temp are you running? Is it running normal or on the hot side? I believe getting a VP tech involved is critical at this point. Even if you replace the turbos you may not have corrected the problem that caused them to go out. This needs to be addressed. The tips of the fins are burnt because of the vortex caused by the carbon build up and exhaust gas is super heated at that point. A check of the after cooler is a must after this type of failure.

As far as cost, I don't deal in that world. US cost is generally less than overseas however you may want to research it first. Also you will want to check on your countries tax and tariff on imported products. buying it cheap here is one thing sending it back home is another.

 

[Pietro]

So what the hell happened here. Too hot of exhaust temp from plugged aftercoolers? Too hot of exhaust temp from poor water flow through the aftercoolers?

Ron, aftercoolers cool down air, right? I am not understanding why a plugged should rise exhaust temp??? May be because the turbo is struggling more against the pressure created by the plugged aftercooler?

 

[BonBini]

Ron, aftercoolers cool down air, right? I am not understanding why a plugged should rise exhaust temp??? May be because the turbo is struggling more against the pressure created by the plugged aftercooler?

The aftercoolers sole purpose is to cool the air charge. Air off a turbo's compressor can hit 400*F. Approximately for every 1*F the aftercooler can cool the engines incoming air, a 3*F reduction in exhaust temp can be seen. Under load, and everything good, a turbo chargers turbine fins are normally red hot.

With a drop in boost pressure, from say a fouled aftercooler. The engine gets less air. The fuel burn takes longer, the hot unburnt fuel reaches the red hot turbine fins and a blow torch fire takes place.

Richards turbo pics show a lot of black soot/carbon and burnt turbine. Looks like it’s not been running too well for a while… Not burning all it’s fuel in the cylinders, black smoking exhaust, but then smoky exhaust clearing up as the turbo temp comes up to finish the burn.

Here is a good looking turbo with none of the above problems. Has something like 270 hours on it. Notice how tight the fit. Good energy transfer...

 

[BonBini]

Ron,
Should these been checked by VP when they did the 200 hrs service few months ago. All those won't happen just over 3~4 months? would it? Looks like I have to have VP to come down to run a test....
Richard

I don't know specifically what is involved in a 200 hr service on a KD300. Typically on a small service like a 200 it's not much more than an engine oil and filters change. One is not really checking turbo's untill a higher hr interval, or the customer has a specific performance complaint relaing too.

I certainly hope you don't have to end up going the full Monty like Melida did. It does look like a turbo or two may be needed and the aftercoolers serviced at a minimum.

Hopefully the VP Tech will be knowledgeable, experienced and equipped to service your engines.

 

[Richard F]

What operating temp are you running? Is it running normal or on the hot side? I believe getting a VP tech involved is critical at this point. Even if you replace the turbos you may not have corrected the problem that caused them to go out. This needs to be addressed. The tips of the fins are burnt because of the vortex caused by the carbon build up and exhaust gas is super heated at that point. A check of the after cooler is a must after this type of failure.

As far as cost, I don't deal in that world. US cost is generally less than overseas however you may want to research it first. Also you will want to check on your countries tax and tariff on imported products. buying it cheap here is one thing sending it back home is another.

Bill,
The engines temp. always on the high side. Port engine is around 190 F but the STBD engine goes to around 210 F.
I have called VP and they will come to check them out first before doing a service on the turbo system but the earliest that they can come down is next Monday.

Richard

 

[Richard F]

I don't know specifically what is involved in a 200 hr service on a KD300. Typically on a small service like a 200 it's not much more than an engine oil and filters change. One is not really checking turbo's untill a higher hr interval, or the customer has a specific performance complaint relaing too.

I certainly hope you don't have to end up going the full Monty like Melida did. It does look like a turbo or two may be needed and the aftercoolers serviced at a minimum.

Hopefully the VP Tech will be knowledgeable, experienced and equipped to service your engines.

Ron,
Talked to the VP service. The last service didn't include any servicing / cleaning of the turbo system. They were aware of the pressure was low but at the boarder line and were going to have them done at the next service. They are coming down next Monday to check and let me know what needs to be done...hope I don't get a heart attack. Will keep you guys posted.
Richard

 

[Pietro]

The aftercoolers sole purpose is to cool the air charge. Air off a turbo's compressor can hit 400*F. Approximately for every 1*F the aftercooler can cool the engines incoming air, a 3*F reduction in exhaust temp can be seen. Under load, and everything good, a turbo chargers turbine fins are normally red hot.

With a drop in boost pressure, from say a fouled aftercooler. The engine gets less air. The fuel burn takes longer, the hot unburnt fuel reaches the red hot turbine fins and a blow torch fire takes place.

Richards turbo pics show a lot of black soot/carbon and burnt turbine. Looks like it’s not been running too well for a while… Not burning all it’s fuel in the cylinders, black smoking exhaust, but then smoky exhaust clearing up as the turbo temp comes up to finish the burn.

Here is a good looking turbo with none of the above problems. Has something like 270 hours on it. Notice how tight the fit. Good energy transfer...

http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz31/BonBini268/Turbo%203208%20marine/image.jpg

Got it Ron, thank you :thumbsup:

This means that the original culprit could have been one or more faulty injector?

VP being to sensitive to fuel quality as Melida states?

I'm asking because a friend of mine is experiencing similar problems on his VPs...

 

[melida]

Turbo diesel Volvo Penta owners are prone to gastric bleeding.
Richard get ready for it :grin:
Best regards.
Melida

 

[OldSkool]

With increased engine temp I would agree with Ron. He and I have been around the block a few times and pretty much can see eye to eye on diesel issues. Other issues with the engine can or will cause this like bad injectors, plugged after cooler, engine overheating and restricted exhaust.

Turbo’s are fairly maintenance free if they are getting good clean oil to lubricate, correct fuel mix, and unrestricted air flow both in and out.

 

[Richard F]

Thanks guys. Will try to get some answers from VP and keep you posted.

Richard

 

[Richard F]

Two VP mech came down this afternoon with the VODIA. The first thing they checked was the pick up sensor if they were clean. They said recently they had an engine couldn't pick up speed because there were metal filing from the starter sticking to the sensor and the computer couldn't pick up signal properly. Then they checked the exhaust pipe inside propeller, verified the check valve, O seal...are good. Turbo housing are corroded quite bad. Hooked the VODIA on. The compression is good but the charge pressure is a bit low.
Went out for a sea trial, with 3 guys at the front to keep the bow down, the STBD egine managed max. 2570 RPM. Turbo pressure 19.7 psi. Fuel at 9.7 gal / hr. Port side was a bit lower. There were times that the turbos tried to kick in.
The reason why the housing were so bad because the boat stay in sea water at all time even in winter. Turbos are located only about 4" from the sea water level inside the hose (remember one pix I shown after taking the elbow out). The reason for the carbon built up was I didn't have the boat run high RPM enough. When I was away I always have someone to run the engines but only at idle. Fuel never burnt completely. Water was quite warm for the last three months and looks like I have a lot of barnacle down the bottom and prop, trim tabs.....
Verdit from VP: They will send me the VODIA report. I will need two new turbochargers and that will fix the problem no doubt. For now, have an anti-fouling done will properly help to reach higher speed (turbo might kick in). Enjoy the last 2 weeks of this season and have the turbos replaced at the beginning of the next season.......

Richard

 

[douglee25]

I too think they problem is turbo related, but I don't buy the idling portion on Volvo's claim as the culprit. You would have to do a hell of a lot of idling for the turbo's to become that carboned up. In fact, with your engines being electronic, there really shouldn't be an issue.

Doug