Tragic swimming accident close to home.

[Four Suns]

When somebody makes dumb decisions and thinks a life vest is going to save them they are just wrong.

Like crossing the gulf stream in a bow rider?

Give me a break... PFD's save lives... dumb decisions or not.

 

[billandamy]

Hmmmm, on our lake, some use the vest to "swim" (float around more the word I would use) and others just kid of tread, but there is almost no current whatsoever in the cove we go into. I havent worn a lj yet in the cove.

I think if I were on open waters or in a current, Id suggest life jackets and flotation devices (such as Ginger), but as adults, I wouldnt force the issue. A stern warning, then do what you want at your own risk.

 

[chuck1]

Like crossing the gulf stream in a bow rider?

Give me a break... PFD's save lives... dumb decisions or not.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about PFD's saving lives. It just should not take the place of thinking.

Now about that bow rider thing. You forgot to say big bow rider in the right weather. Heck sometimes you should not even cross it in a 30-40+ foot closed bow boat.:grin:

 

[Four Suns]

I think if I were on open waters or in a current, Id suggest life jackets and flotation devices (such as Ginger), but as adults, I wouldnt force the issue. A stern warning, then do what you want at your own risk.

If you are the captain of the boat, you will get blamed... by the press... by the law suit... by their family... etc... "Do what you want" doesn't work when you are legally the one responsible for the well being of everyone. It's not like driving a car to a college party.

 

[billandamy]

If you are the captain of the boat, you will get blamed... by the press... by the law suit... by their family... etc... "Do what you want" doesn't work when you are legally the one responsible for the well being of everyone. It's not like driving a car to a college party.

Hmmm...am I legally responsible? What ever happened to the mantra "personal responsibility"?

If I am the captain and I suggest life jackets and they refuse, I have done my part as witnesses will attest to I would think. Thus personal responsibility has been shifted to the end decision maker, no?

 

[billandamy]

Oh and PS, yes we too always have the tube on a rope out in the water. When it is an adults only raft up, Ginger keeps an eye on everyone.

 

[hack4alivin]

If I am going to Maxwell, Still Pond, Hart Miller, or wherever to swim I am moving the boat into shallow water. This was a stupid decision to go swimming there when other options are available. My prayers go out to the family of these two kids, such a shame at the prime of life.

There is no going back in time, so don’t make the same mistake. Gary make some excellent points, especially as far a the life jackets and a fast retrieval method!

This is just another example; it’s no game out there. Things can get serious real quick.

Boat smart, Boat safe!

 

[tobnpr]

Hmmm...am I legally responsible? What ever happened to the mantra "personal responsibility"?

If I am the captain and I suggest life jackets and they refuse, I have done my part as witnesses will attest to I would think. Thus personal responsibility has been shifted to the end decision maker, no?

I agree.

 

[fc3]

"After swimming in a strong current, the teens headed toward the boat but one of them got stuck in the current behind the others, Horne said. The two boys swam back to help him. One of the teens went under the water, and the remaining two swam back toward the boat, but only one made it back onto the boat alive, Horne said."

At the point where "two boys swam back" is when you throw out PFDs, cut the anchor line, and go. Once they got to the swimmer in trouble, what the heck were the going to do? Carry him? They had no lifesaving equipment with them. This isn't bad decision-making. It's the lack of decision making because they weren't thinking until it was far too late.

n a current, Id suggest life jackets and flotation devices (such as Ginger), but as adults, I wouldnt force the issue. A stern warning, then do what you want at your own risk.

Hmmm...am I legally responsible? What ever happened to the mantra "personal responsibility"?

If I am the captain and I suggest life jackets and they refuse, I have done my part as witnesses will attest to I would think. Thus personal responsibility has been shifted to the end decision maker, no?

I agree.

Legally and morally the captain has the responsibility. This is because it is presumed that the captain has superior knowledge, experience, and training over that of the guests. Guests may make the wrong and unsafe decision because they are ignorant of the risks and hazards.

On my boat. I make the rules. Guests either abide or we turn around and I drop them off at the dock. If they don't like it, fine. They at least have to be alive to be P.O.ed.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[chuck1]

... This isn't bad decision-making. It's the lack of decision making because they weren't thinking until it was far too late.

+1 Ditto

 

[r_moss]

I wonder if booze wasn't involved.......

 

[Cincy Aquaholic]

Not debating the use of life jackets at all and, of course, they are required on my boat for children. But I'm not aware of any maritime law or otherwise that specifically charges a "captain" with the legal responsibility for the safety of persons swimming off your boat. Not trying to split hairs here either but how many of us are actually "captains" versus boat owners/operators who may or may not have taken safety courses? I have to imagine being a "captain" requires specific licensure and the operation of specific type of vessel, no?

Is someone aware of such a law or is this simply an unwritten rule you follow?

 

[Four Suns]

Although "legally" may be a strong word in that if something goes wrong you commit a felony/misdemeanor... I would bet, however, there is plenty of case law on the civil side of the courts that the captain/owner gets the blame and bears the burden when things go wrong... (negligence, etc. etc.) regardless of how stupid the guests are.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Doesn't have to be a law IMO. could you sleep at night knowing you could have prevented a death of someone on your boat? EASILY prevented!!! I know I couldn't.

1 thing is all it takes for things to go wrong very quickly. you add another... odds of someone dying go through the roof. 3 things, only sheer luck will bring someone out alive.

Someone swimming off a boat this weekend, water temp 60 degrees. That's you're one thing, you can't throw another variable into the mix. There can't be a current, they cannot not have flotation, they cannot drink, they can't be tired, they have to be great swimmers etc... You add 1 or 2 more variables to the mix, and they are screwed. That's not law, or my rules, Bush's rules, that's the facts. Pools are the only scenario I can think of and we know how many people die each year in a 85 degree pool 15' away from the side.

 

[gerryb]

No specific law exists, but the general one can do enough damage. In most states it is a negligence threshold. If you are found to be negligent in the operation of the vessel, you will be found liable. If you have anyone jump in without a PFD and they drown, I hope that you: 1) have 2 witnesses that clearly heard the offer and refusal by drowned victim, 2) hope that you did not consume any alcohol, 3) made immediate and proper attempts to rescue the drowning victim, 4) reported the incident immediately and 5) have the financial ability to afford to defend yourself in court.

Do a search on 'boating accident attorney' and you'll agree that it is just much smarter to have your guests wear life vests and LIVE.

 

[Weave]

Tragic story for sure......

On a side note Doug?
I skin dive without a PDF. Wearing a PDF and skin diving are not compatible.[/quote]

I dunno about you guys but an Adobe PDF isnt gonna help anyone keep their head above water.....I'll opt for the PFD:lol:

 

[fc3]

The problem with Admiralty law is discovering it. I'm not an expert but I know what I've read. Most guidance is of the sort like what Boat/US wrote below. There's also a huge gulf between what one can be found guilty of doing in a criminal court vs. what can be judged against one in a civil tort.

"The question of liability is both simple and complex, steeped in more than 3,000 years of maritime legal principles dating back to the Phoenicians. Admiralty law, like land-based legal concepts, starts with the premise that a property owner owes his invited guest a duty to exercise ordinary or reasonable care for the safety of
the guest.

"Deciding just what constitutes reasonable care can be especially complicated on a boat, which is bobbing, slippery and filled with obstructions. It has a great deal to do with the experience of the boat owner and the boating experience of the passenger and whether the boat owner had or should have had knowledge or notice of some dangerous condition. Additionally, it may depend on whether the owner knew or should have known his guest was unaware of or unfamiliar with the condition."

Or like what the US Coast Guard Auxillary wrote below.

"Whether you’re the captain of a ship, the skipper on a boat, or just the family leader at the helm for the day, you are the person responsible for the safety and security of all persons onboard, for damage to property, and people you might injure or affect by your boat’s course or its wake. Thus, you have a duty and legal obligation to be a person of trust and reliability and to earn that level of respect you must know what you are doing and demonstrate it through example and practice.

"To a degree, unmatched by many other forms of transportation, passengers and other boaters are dependent on your skills, conduct and professional approach to boating. According to the Coast Guard, of those persons involved in fatal boating accidents, nearly 70% of them had no formal training in boat handling or safety. They also have one thing in common with many motorists who do not buckle-up; 80% do not wear lifejackets."

It's your nickel, and you can do what you want. However I'm not going to spend years in court only to end up having to hand over everything I've got to someone who hurt himself, or worse, on my boat. Plus, as Mike said, it's nice being able to sleep at night.

 

[billandamy]

If I asked another ADULT to wear a life jacket, and they refused and went swimming and drowned, Id feel horrible, but I would sleep at night fine knowing I even took the time to explain that he should wear one. Personal responsibility.

Same as everything else in life imo.

YMMV.

 

[Turtlesboat]

If I asked another ADULT to wear a life jacket, and they refused and went swimming and drowned, Id feel horrible, but I would sleep at night fine knowing I even took the time to explain that he should wear one. Personal responsibility.

Same as everything else in life imo.

YMMV.

Spoken like someone that has never seen someone drown.

P.S. It's not because I feel I have to protect everyone from themselves while they are on my boat, It's to protect ME. I don't want to ever be put in the position of having to decide to jump in after someone and endanger my life. Even if you know it's not the right thing to jump into a dangerous situation to try and save someone from drowning, I defy anyone to look into the eyes of someone drowning and not jump into the water to try and save them even if it could mean certain death to you.

 

[billandamy]

Spoken like someone that has never seen someone drown.

Regardless, I wont take the blame/feel guilt for another adult making decisions of their own accord. I would be saddened, but not feel responsible.