Russ Calasant
Active Member
Dale, I have water lift mufflers.
Stuck! Need advice ASAP 7.4 motor knock- need to get home!
- Thread starter Russ Calasant
- Start date
Russ Calasant
Active Member
After a solid week the yard responded to my inquiry for pricing. I have asked for a written breakdown, maybe I will get that in another week. They told me $12k, I think this includes the haul, manifolds, labor to date and future labor and a Mercury reman long block. I can pick up this block myself in nearby RI for $3900, manifolds for $900 ( not sure why, mine are new last year ) and hire a mobile service at $95 an hour. Say $8k? Additional hassle, I will have to have boat towed to another facility and hauled where I can have outside work done. Plus I now have an unknown mobile guy vs a well known marina. So add in another $1k for labor already completed plus a few hundred for the additional haul and I am looking at a difference of $2500? Warranty? What do you guys think? $12k just seems like a bunch of money to replace a $4k motor, it's hard to swallow.
tdschafer
Well-Known Member
How are your skills? Can you haul it home and come up with a lift (Possible bobcat or forklift) to pull the motor? If you know someone with a decent skill level that can help out even better! That does sound like alot of money for the job Russ. I would probably try and do it myself and keep half of that money in my pocket. Heck, you could do both motors then for the same money he wants for one!!
Just a thought.....:huh:
Just a thought.....:huh:
Russ Calasant
Active Member
Todd,
I could probably do it myself with the help of friends but I really don't want the job nor do I want to impose on friends. I'm sure i would learn a lot and it would be an experience but I can see it turning into a lot of time and probably not that big a savings in the end. Good input and I am thinking of doing both motors. Thanks.
I could probably do it myself with the help of friends but I really don't want the job nor do I want to impose on friends. I'm sure i would learn a lot and it would be an experience but I can see it turning into a lot of time and probably not that big a savings in the end. Good input and I am thinking of doing both motors. Thanks.
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
There is some value in finding a yard you trust then doing the entire repair with them. Sure, they may have different sources than the cheapest you can scout up, but you will have one source responsibility for the repair. You usually get a decent warranty this way and, if something goes wrong, there cannot be any finger pointing because you hired the marina to do the whole job. I know this is serious money, but if you buy the motor at one place, go and pick it up, hire another guy to install it, buy manifolds from another source and then have a marina launch the boat, you will get dizzy trying to stop the finger pointing if something doesn't work out.
douglee25
Well-Known Member
So let's break this down... Just in parts for the motor and manifolds you're in the hole $5k. Add incidentals and other small replacement costs and that brings you up to about $5500-$6000 with their markup included. The hauling and blocking literally costs them nothing but time for an operator ($100). I don't know what your current diagnosis bill is but add that in and subtract the total from $12k. That is your labor cost which is what sounds high in the $5k-$6k range. At $100 per hour, that equates to roughly 50-60 hours or 5-6 work days to R&R one engine. That sounds like a lot to me. I would think you should be at 20-30 hours max for one engine. That shaves off around $2k-$3k from their price. Why not bring that up to them and see if they can work with you? Another way you could work it is that the $12k price is a not to exceed price. Have them track hours on the job and pay the labor costs associated with the repair. If the costs work out such that they are under the $12k total, you pocket the savings. If they are over the $12k cost, you still win and don't pay more than $12k cap.
Doug
Doug
- Feb 4, 2007
- 7,251
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
- Engines
- 3126 427HP TD transmissions
As with any business, they also have to price in unknowns and things that go wrong or break after the install. I have never had anything come in at the price on paper.
MonacoMike
Well-Known Member
- Sep 15, 2009
- 14,721
- Boat Info
- 2000 Cruisers 3870
8.2 Mercs
- Engines
- 85 Sea Ray Monaco 197
260hp Alpha 1
Turtle is right on this. Customers always plan/think low and life rarely works out that way. Few reputable shops would gamble on the quote that way in my area. What happens if 3 bolts break etc. and all the time to fix that unexpected stuff. This engine was not just installed a few months ago. If there is time and money to do it, there is time and money to do it right, or wait utill you can. MM
Russ Calasant
Active Member
All good advice guys, making notes, thank you
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
I would wonder if the yard you are talking to has ever done this on a 370DA before. My concern isn't that they need prior experience, but that there may be some safety factor in their estimates to cover unknowns.
Don't get me wrong.......this is a big job on the 37. I believe the entire cockpit has to be torn apart and the cockpit deck removed from the boat, then the engine and transmission have to come out as one piece because there isn't room to uncouple them in place. That means pulling the prop and shaft back far enough to clear the transmission coupler. It is all simple mechanical stuff like removing nuts/bolts/screws and putting them back in, but there is a lot of it to do. If you have asked for a cost in advance of the work, then you can be sure there is a safety factor involved.
Don't get me wrong.......this is a big job on the 37. I believe the entire cockpit has to be torn apart and the cockpit deck removed from the boat, then the engine and transmission have to come out as one piece because there isn't room to uncouple them in place. That means pulling the prop and shaft back far enough to clear the transmission coupler. It is all simple mechanical stuff like removing nuts/bolts/screws and putting them back in, but there is a lot of it to do. If you have asked for a cost in advance of the work, then you can be sure there is a safety factor involved.
Russ Calasant
Active Member
Good points Frank, thanks I appreciate it, I should have more pricing detail today. I have asked for a rough breakdown in writing, being a visual person it's easier for me to absorb. They are a trusted yard and have a good reputation, all considered I am leaning that way. I need to make a decision and move forward. I plan to winter there so when they pull me I'm out for good unless it's necessary to test prior to spring it should also give them more time to complete so I'm hoping to help my cause.
Larry
Well-Known Member
- Oct 19, 2006
- 1,284
- Boat Info
- 2004 42 Sundancer
Hydraulic platform
Cockpit air
KVH M3
- Engines
- 450hp Cummins
Russ,
What is there exact diagnoses of the state of your engine? What is there justification to rebuild/replace this engine when it sounds like there is nothing wrong with the block or the bottom end? From all the information that I have seen, it sounds like at the worst you may need to replace the heads or at the least a good valve job... and obviously address the exhaust issue by replacing the manifold and risers. I completely understand them being cautious and covering there a$$ but there is no reason that this should cost you $7K more then necessary (unless there is something else going on with this motor).
What is there exact diagnoses of the state of your engine? What is there justification to rebuild/replace this engine when it sounds like there is nothing wrong with the block or the bottom end? From all the information that I have seen, it sounds like at the worst you may need to replace the heads or at the least a good valve job... and obviously address the exhaust issue by replacing the manifold and risers. I completely understand them being cautious and covering there a$$ but there is no reason that this should cost you $7K more then necessary (unless there is something else going on with this motor).
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Did you read the thread?...............See post # 40.......exhaust valve disintegrated and parts of it were imbedded in the piston. Marina gave the owner 3 repair options...................
- Aug 17, 2010
- 1,160
- Boat Info
- 2005 Cruisers Yachts 500 Express
Zodiac Yachtline 340DL w/ Yamaha 40 hp
- Engines
- Twin 715 hp Volvo D12s with V-Drives
Russ,
I sent you a PM concerning the repairs - give me a call when you get a chance.
For everyone else, it is NOT possible for us to make a long distance recommendation to Russ, at least, not reliably. Only the technicians on-site can make that determination. They (should) have the proper measuring instruments, and they can evaluate the damage first hand. An exhaust valve did fracture (possibly a seat as well), and cause piston bore damage. How much? We can't say. Are the bores worn? We can't say. Did the bores suffer damage, scratches, scoring, or impingement? We can't say. What is the condition of the short blocks, in terms of overall life, bearing wear, etc.? We can't say.
There are also issues concerning piston ring-land damage. The top piston ring may be pinched, but this damage is not visible without a complete disassembly and inspection. A simple head replacement might get the engine running, but after a short time with a pinched ring, piston and bore damage would result, and Russ would be right back in the same boat (literally).
As to the water intrusion issue, Russ indicated that the boat is already equipped with water lift mufflers. This is a step in the right direction, but just having them does not mean that the actual installation is correct. Mercruiser has very tightly defined requirements concerning the descent angle of the exhaust hoses from the elbows to the mufflers. Does the current installation meet these requirements? Are the lift mufflers positioned as low as possible in the hull? Is the muffler discharge elbow positioned below the engine elbow, such that the exhaust system is inherently "safe" from water reversion and intrusion? Were the risers and elbows disassembled, inspected, and reassembled regularly, as Mercruiser requires? (every 2-3 years) There are simply too many possibilities for an assessment to be made without being on-site.
Russ asked us for advice as to how to proceed with solving his problem. In my opinion, this advice should be confined to answering specific questions about how the various systems on a boat work, and are designed. The ultimate decision as to how to proceed forward is up to him - it's his boat, and only he and the technicians on-site can perform the actual evaluations.
Having said that, I would never run the damaged engine without a complete disassembly. I can almost guarantee that there is piston and/or bore damage that will not manifest during a cursory visual inspection. It's not worth the risk, and no yard or technician worth his salt would guarantee such a job (not if they have any idea what they're doing).
On a side note, as Frank mentioned, the engine and transmission should come out as a package. Now the trans can be evaluated as well. Russ may need a new damper plate, and I would certainly take the transmission apart, and at the least, replace the forward/reverse clutch packs, check bearing and gear condition, and replace all seals. Actually, I would pull both sides, but that's up to Russ...
Dale
I sent you a PM concerning the repairs - give me a call when you get a chance.
For everyone else, it is NOT possible for us to make a long distance recommendation to Russ, at least, not reliably. Only the technicians on-site can make that determination. They (should) have the proper measuring instruments, and they can evaluate the damage first hand. An exhaust valve did fracture (possibly a seat as well), and cause piston bore damage. How much? We can't say. Are the bores worn? We can't say. Did the bores suffer damage, scratches, scoring, or impingement? We can't say. What is the condition of the short blocks, in terms of overall life, bearing wear, etc.? We can't say.
There are also issues concerning piston ring-land damage. The top piston ring may be pinched, but this damage is not visible without a complete disassembly and inspection. A simple head replacement might get the engine running, but after a short time with a pinched ring, piston and bore damage would result, and Russ would be right back in the same boat (literally).
As to the water intrusion issue, Russ indicated that the boat is already equipped with water lift mufflers. This is a step in the right direction, but just having them does not mean that the actual installation is correct. Mercruiser has very tightly defined requirements concerning the descent angle of the exhaust hoses from the elbows to the mufflers. Does the current installation meet these requirements? Are the lift mufflers positioned as low as possible in the hull? Is the muffler discharge elbow positioned below the engine elbow, such that the exhaust system is inherently "safe" from water reversion and intrusion? Were the risers and elbows disassembled, inspected, and reassembled regularly, as Mercruiser requires? (every 2-3 years) There are simply too many possibilities for an assessment to be made without being on-site.
Russ asked us for advice as to how to proceed with solving his problem. In my opinion, this advice should be confined to answering specific questions about how the various systems on a boat work, and are designed. The ultimate decision as to how to proceed forward is up to him - it's his boat, and only he and the technicians on-site can perform the actual evaluations.
Having said that, I would never run the damaged engine without a complete disassembly. I can almost guarantee that there is piston and/or bore damage that will not manifest during a cursory visual inspection. It's not worth the risk, and no yard or technician worth his salt would guarantee such a job (not if they have any idea what they're doing).
On a side note, as Frank mentioned, the engine and transmission should come out as a package. Now the trans can be evaluated as well. Russ may need a new damper plate, and I would certainly take the transmission apart, and at the least, replace the forward/reverse clutch packs, check bearing and gear condition, and replace all seals. Actually, I would pull both sides, but that's up to Russ...
Dale
Larry
Well-Known Member
- Oct 19, 2006
- 1,284
- Boat Info
- 2004 42 Sundancer
Hydraulic platform
Cockpit air
KVH M3
- Engines
- 450hp Cummins
I will qualify my suggestion that I have not personally seen the extent of the damage to the top of this piston.... I guess I do agree with what Dale said, as far as eror on the side of caution, I guess I am just more optimistic!
Last edited:
Russ Calasant
Active Member
Again, thank you all for your valuable input- I am learning a lot.
Dale, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head -
"Having said that, I would never run the damaged engine without a complete disassembly. I can almost guarantee that there is piston and/or bore damage that will not manifest during a cursory visual inspection. It's not worth the risk, and no yard or technician worth his salt would guarantee such a job (not if they have any idea what they're doing)."
Pretty much what they said at Gwenmor in Mystic. They weighed the labor costs and the known parts costs alone and motor replacement made sense factor in the risk and it was a no- brainer. They are very concerned about not taking any chances, at my expense of course, to limit any possibility of further or future failure. It is a balancing act and very fine line at best.
Moving on to pricing is an issue in itself, another balancing act. As said already, they have to pic every possible part right down to impeller and spark plug. They have it at list and are including the haul and almost 50 hours of labor. Now all the tune up parts, water/ fuel pump and other misc parts are brand new OEM and will not require replacement. I am going to winter at Gwenmore so the $500 haul will not be charged (I will pay winter haul and storage). The labor includes the 9 hours already spent and is a pessimistic estimate that could even exceed with an unforeseen issue such as excessive time spent with alignment or any number of possibilities. They do not suspect any issues and are, as I, hoping for the best resulting in a lower cost but planning for the worst. We had a very frank conversation about previous experiences and my hesitation to move forward with such a big estimate and not writing a blind check for $12k. I have also requested that they crack the other exhaust to inspect (also new last season) and compression test the motor.
The plan right now is to move forward, an initial payment of $5k they will get the motor and exhaust and pull my motor, what's left, and tranny. They will winterize and wrap the boat, build the new motor in the shop to have ready to drop in when the weather breaks and sea trial in the spring. Of course I will be paying them the balance along the way which helps. While the port side engine bay is empty I hope to address anything that requires addressing- I am guessing/ hoping Dale will assist here!
My only deep though/ concern here that continues to haunt me is the fact that I will have one new motor and one with 700 hours when I'm done. I would hesitate to buy or own such a boat. The cost keeps me at bay but I'm left with the feeling of a job half done. It's going to continue to bother me and it's going to get worse. What do you guys think- Frank? Dale?
Dale, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head -
"Having said that, I would never run the damaged engine without a complete disassembly. I can almost guarantee that there is piston and/or bore damage that will not manifest during a cursory visual inspection. It's not worth the risk, and no yard or technician worth his salt would guarantee such a job (not if they have any idea what they're doing)."
Pretty much what they said at Gwenmor in Mystic. They weighed the labor costs and the known parts costs alone and motor replacement made sense factor in the risk and it was a no- brainer. They are very concerned about not taking any chances, at my expense of course, to limit any possibility of further or future failure. It is a balancing act and very fine line at best.
Moving on to pricing is an issue in itself, another balancing act. As said already, they have to pic every possible part right down to impeller and spark plug. They have it at list and are including the haul and almost 50 hours of labor. Now all the tune up parts, water/ fuel pump and other misc parts are brand new OEM and will not require replacement. I am going to winter at Gwenmore so the $500 haul will not be charged (I will pay winter haul and storage). The labor includes the 9 hours already spent and is a pessimistic estimate that could even exceed with an unforeseen issue such as excessive time spent with alignment or any number of possibilities. They do not suspect any issues and are, as I, hoping for the best resulting in a lower cost but planning for the worst. We had a very frank conversation about previous experiences and my hesitation to move forward with such a big estimate and not writing a blind check for $12k. I have also requested that they crack the other exhaust to inspect (also new last season) and compression test the motor.
The plan right now is to move forward, an initial payment of $5k they will get the motor and exhaust and pull my motor, what's left, and tranny. They will winterize and wrap the boat, build the new motor in the shop to have ready to drop in when the weather breaks and sea trial in the spring. Of course I will be paying them the balance along the way which helps. While the port side engine bay is empty I hope to address anything that requires addressing- I am guessing/ hoping Dale will assist here!
My only deep though/ concern here that continues to haunt me is the fact that I will have one new motor and one with 700 hours when I'm done. I would hesitate to buy or own such a boat. The cost keeps me at bay but I'm left with the feeling of a job half done. It's going to continue to bother me and it's going to get worse. What do you guys think- Frank? Dale?
Russ Calasant
Active Member
Larry,
These options became obsolete when they pulled the second head and discovered 3 out of 4 pistons showed obvious water intrusion. It then became obvious replacement was the logical choice but I like your optimism !
rcknecht
Well-Known Member
Russ are you interested in my SS one piece manifolds? The one set has been repaired, I still have to pull of the other set to inspect it...
Russ Calasant
Active Member
Thanks Rod but I think I am going to stick with OEM, that's the conclusion I came to when I first considered them- not so much the expense but the fact that they are not OEM or have much of a track record
tdschafer
Well-Known Member
Russ,
Since a fair portion of labor is removing the decking etc. to access the engine room as per Frank's post what would the cost of another motor be? I am sure it's not cheap but I don't think you have to double the original $12K, right? I am thinking if you can stretch it out over the next 6 months or so could you possibly swing a new motor for the other side? I admit that I too would have trepidation toward purchasing a boat like that with such large disparity in the motor hours. You could probably sell the good motor on craigslist and recoup a percentage of your costs.
Of course this is your money and I am just thinking out loud here. I would assume you would then hang onto this beautiful boat for a few more years and enjoy the piece of mind that you just financed!
Just a thought.
Good luck with it!
Since a fair portion of labor is removing the decking etc. to access the engine room as per Frank's post what would the cost of another motor be? I am sure it's not cheap but I don't think you have to double the original $12K, right? I am thinking if you can stretch it out over the next 6 months or so could you possibly swing a new motor for the other side? I admit that I too would have trepidation toward purchasing a boat like that with such large disparity in the motor hours. You could probably sell the good motor on craigslist and recoup a percentage of your costs.
Of course this is your money and I am just thinking out loud here. I would assume you would then hang onto this beautiful boat for a few more years and enjoy the piece of mind that you just financed!
Just a thought.
Good luck with it!
