State of the pleasure boat cruising economy

[JediJD]

One of my degrees actually is in economics and frankly, I wish I didn't understand how bad this is or how much worse its likely to get. I get excited when people on either side of the argument substitute fantasy for reality...and yours was the first clear example in this thread I saw (thank you for your son's service and family's commitment btw...that is unchallenged at all). I think we all want to pay for roads and help our elders but for quite some time our elders are going to get less, and get it later and we are not going to have as many roads because all of the money for roads and elders was already spent on great societies, and bureaucracies, and military presences, and housing bubbles, and stupid "investments" in foreign countries. It wasn't Republicans or Democrats...it was both of them and all of us. If you look at the numbers, there cannot be enough waste in government to make any substantial difference (the total amount of all discretionary spending...TOTAL...doesn't equal a fifth of the shortfall). Also, raising taxes on anybody doesn't make any difference...the total amount of ALL money available for taxes doesn't make a dent and the more you take out of the private sector, the less that comes back (that's the whole Laffer curve part that actually does make sense). Your "all I want is for everyone to pay their fair share" is BS (businesses and individuals flee high tax areas to low tax areas...it works for states and countries...the myth of taxing corporations more is both ineffective and counterproductive). The only chance at all...and everybody with skin in the game knows it...government has to scale back by roughly 20% at all levels (military, entitlements, social services). The really scary part is the fraudulent "$4 trillion dollar tax compromise" is just that...a fraud. Most of the savings are from a decreased rate of increase and are the equivalent of paper cuts, not economic surgery.

Personally, I think you are thoughtful, and probably pretty well read for your social circle (unlike the moron who called this an issue about race). Much of what you are repeating has some populist push behind it...but mathematically its snake oil. We have to stop letting our government rule with fear and division. You and I are not enemies and we are not enemies with companies or the rich. You, and I, and the rich, and companies, are on one side, and government is on the other.

Like I said, it's not double. A third higher is a dollar higher which is what i said. And I don't smoke. I am not an economist and don't pretend to be and I bet you're not either. We all want to live a good life, but don't seem to want to pay for good roads or pay for those who paved the way for us (our elders).. I'll be the first to agree the gov't wastes too much money, so lets fix it. But lets not fix it by cutting social security to the old who didn't even know what a 401K was when they were working their tails off. And lets not fix it by cutting taxes more, which just creates a bigger hole for our kids kids kids to dig out of. It has to be balanced. The country has huge issues that need serious and non-political and non-self-serving solutions.. it's going to be painful for everyone. Rhetoric and name calling isn't going to do anything. Corporations do pay taxes, and the US corporations pay less than any industrialized nation. They can't fix the problem, but they can pay their fair share and that's all I'm advocating, is for everyone to pay their fair share.

I'm also pretty sure I didn't pick on the big boat crowd at all, what I suggested is if you have a big boat you should be prepared to put gas in it. And i you're driving a 40' boat and worried about groceries, you prob shouldn't have bought a 40' boat. Not sure that's picking on anyone.

And I do know I'm fortunate. I have 3 wonderful sons the oldest of which is a Marine, who I'm doubly proud of!!

 

[mistercomputerman]

What did you all do to Gary's thread?

We were having some fun, someone starts with the politics (maybe we should throw some religion on the fire, too) and now the thing belongs in the Holding Tank.

 

[JediJD]

Theresa, combined corporate tax rates are not a sound byte, they are a complex issue that is debated regularly by people with a lot of insight. The comparison to GDP itself is sort of like comparing hemlines on girls dresses...it can be an accurate statistic without providing any useful comparison. The debate isn't with Monaco (although his source is better) about whose GDP comparison is closer to accurate. The real question is "How do US corporations stack up internationally in the obligation to pay taxes?" and a good neutral primer on the subject is this article from Politifacts http://www.politifact.com/virginia/...-allen-says-us-corporate-tax-rate-second-hig/. Once you get your arms around the fact that we already bleed corporations, over regulate them, scare the stocks off them with a nut job court system and pillory them in all manner of entertainment...you will start to get why they move production other places (although that is also a complicated issue).

Do you care what the gross income of your neighbors is? I do not care what the GDP is, only what I have to pay. In my opinion they are playing with numbers to jusify the rates they support. The chart I linked to shows the actual rate payed on corporate income. The blog you linked is a political advisor. Bloomberg is a credible source quoting a study by PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. MM

 

[Theresamarie11]

Now the only thing missing is to blame it all on Bush.

Terri - just to be sure, you do realize I owned a boat prior to 2007, right? I owned a 320 DA in 2004-07, 280 DA 02-04, 270 DA 97-02, 230 WE 91-97, and an additional 260 DA 2003-06. Since I have started boating, fuel has not doubled, but quadripeld. Interesting, the price increases in the mid 2000's were relatively modest until 2008. I wonder what happened in 2008 that caused such a spike?? Hmmmmm.

Scott, the point is that you kept on buying the big boats as the price of gas went up, which means you did it knowingly of gas prices going up. Again, I think I made my point or you made it for me. Now for those on this forum who bought the 40' boat in 1979 when gas was at some low price, and still have that same boat today, well then they have something to complain about, but I have to believe that their salaries (unless retired) have gone up as well. In any case, you are angry at people you cal 'libs', I guess that's me, and don't really understand us or what you're talking about at all. There are radicals on both sides, most of us are not! I am socially liberal (i try not to throw anyone under the bus), but fiscally conservative. This doesn't mean I want to pay the way for people who are able to work, it does mean I want to take care of the old and fix the medical costs in this country (not pay for everyone). I want a balanced budget, no waste, no fraud, no cronyism (sp?), but this is a difficult point to get to with the current camps and polarization which is so obvious with your language. Seems every time we get a balanced budget, some administration gets in and totally blows it again. Conservative should mean balancing the budget and not spending beyond your means (person, state, country).

 

[wastinaweigh]

I know I pay my fair share, and I wish everyone (and US corporation) would. Not to mention all of the big US companies keeping their money in foreign countries (GE, Cisco, etc). Fuel at $5 a gallon does make it expensive for big boats, but if you buy the boat you have to be ready to pay the price to run it. I kind of see the same thing as every year for big boats. We have a whole lot of them that don't move very often from the docks. Although for that I'm partially grateful, because those same folks are usually a bit (lot) tipsy.

Terri,

I hear this a lot - people/corporations need to pay their "fair share". Since you can state that you are paying your fair share, I am going to assume that you have a definition for it. Please tell me what my (or anyone else's, for that matter) "fair share" is. People, including President Obama, like to throw around that expression but nobody who uses seems to know what it means.

I do not know what corporations you think are breaking the law and not paying their taxes. Perhaps you could be more specific. Many of the tax laws for corporations are written to encourage certain behavior - for example allowing accelerated deductions for buying new equipment, which is supposed to boost jobs. I hope you are not one of the people who believed that GE paid no taxes last year. They stroked a check (actually, the IRS does not accept checks from companies so it was really an ACH transfer) for almost $2.7 billion to the United States Treasury - and that only represents income taxes, not payroll taxes.

Of course, as Monaco Mike explained very well, corporations do not pay taxes. Taxes are a cost of doing business that is passed on to shareholders, customers, and employees just like every other cost.

 

[Theresamarie11]

One of my degrees actually is in economics and frankly, I wish I didn't understand how bad this is or how much worse its likely to get. I get excited when people on either side of the argument substitute fantasy for reality...and yours was the first clear example in this thread I saw (thank you for your son's service and family's commitment btw...that is unchallenged at all). I think we all want to pay for roads and help our elders but for quite some time our elders are going to get less, and get it later and we are not going to have as many roads because all of the money for roads and elders was already spent on great societies, and bureaucracies, and military presences, and housing bubbles, and stupid "investments" in foreign countries. It wasn't Republicans or Democrats...it was both of them and all of us. If you look at the numbers, there cannot be enough waste in government to make any substantial difference (the total amount of all discretionary spending...TOTAL...doesn't equal a fifth of the shortfall). Also, raising taxes on anybody doesn't make any difference...the total amount of ALL money available for taxes doesn't make a dent and the more you take out of the private sector, the less that comes back (that's the whole Laffer curve part that actually does make sense). Your "all I want is for everyone to pay their fair share" is BS (businesses and individuals flee high tax areas to low tax areas...it works for states and countries...the myth of taxing corporations more is both ineffective and counterproductive). The only chance at all...and everybody with skin in the game knows it...government has to scale back by roughly 20% at all levels (military, entitlements, social services). The really scary part is the fraudulent "$4 trillion dollar tax compromise" is just that...a fraud. Most of the savings are from a decreased rate of increase and are the equivalent of paper cuts, not economic surgery.

Personally, I think you are thoughtful, and probably pretty well read for your social circle (unlike the moron who called this an issue about race). Much of what you are repeating has some populist push behind it...but mathematically its snake oil. We have to stop letting our government rule with fear and division. You and I are not enemies and we are not enemies with companies or the rich. You, and I, and the rich, and companies, are on one side, and government is on the other.

So the first balanced response I've seen, congratulations. I don't disagree with most of what you said, and like I said, I am no economist but there are economists in both camps and the fact that I quote one and you quote another doesn't really mean mine is fantasy and yours is fact. There is probably truth is both and everyone spins based on their camps. I agree with all of your points on waste. Lets get rid if it, balance the budget and pay down our debt. I balance my budget and live within my means. And no, I'm not your enemy or Scott's enemy or Mike's enemy, although I suspect based on a few comments here that it would be hard to be friends with some based on their posts and clear hatred for different opinions.
"pretty well read for my social circle" (smile). Not exactly sure what to make of this, but yes I am well educated, well respected and at the top of my profession.

Peace!

 

[boltman]

This is one of my dislikes about this board, you mention or ask what people are seeing and you get a lot of BS, and Unrelated topics to the original Thread Topic, Again ... What did you people do with Garys Thread, it wasn't political at all.... so stick to the frickin topic I don't believe Gary asked for your political opinions, your opinions don't really matter in this thread, wow this actually hurt my head to read all this BS.....
Gary sorry for what has happened to this thread, Moderators start deleting when it doesn't pertain to the topic..I'm cool with that.

 

[LTD.330]

What did you all do to Gary's thread?

We were having some fun, someone starts with the politics (maybe we should throw some religion on the fire, too) and now the thing belongs in the Holding Tank.

Scott said that all that is missing in this thread is the "Blame it on Bush" cries.

I would like to point out that if Bush was responsible for even half of the stuff he is blamed for, he would be all powerful and God would be seated at his right hand.

:grin:

 

[Theresamarie11]

This is one of my dislikes about this board, you mention or ask what people are seeing and you get a lot of BS, and Unrelated topics to the original Thread Topic, Again ... What did you people do with Garys Thread, it wasn't political at all.... so stick to the frickin topic I don't believe Gary asked for your political opinions, your opinions don't really matter in this thread, wow this actually hurt my head to read all this BS.....
Gary sorry for what has happened to this thread, Moderators start deleting when it doesn't pertain to the topic..I'm cool with that.

It actually started with a couple of people blaming Obama for all of the issues with the downfall of boating and the economy.... I see that a lot on the forums (people getting their shots in). And then 'Scott', added the nastiness, and others piled on, so I guess you can blame him. Or blame me for defending Obama.

 

[mistercomputerman]

Attempt at humor for those of you who have their panties in a wad...

 

[floriduramax1]

attempt at humor for those of you who have their panties in a wad...

View attachment 20780

yes!

 

[MonacoMike]

One of my degrees actually is in economics and frankly, I wish I didn't understand how bad this is or how much worse its likely to get. I get excited when people on either side of the argument substitute fantasy for reality...and yours was the first clear example in this thread I saw (thank you for your son's service and family's commitment btw...that is unchallenged at all). I think we all want to pay for roads and help our elders but for quite some time our elders are going to get less, and get it later and we are not going to have as many roads because all of the money for roads and elders was already spent on great societies, and bureaucracies, and military presences, and housing bubbles, and stupid "investments" in foreign countries. It wasn't Republicans or Democrats...it was both of them and all of us. If you look at the numbers, there cannot be enough waste in government to make any substantial difference (the total amount of all discretionary spending...TOTAL...doesn't equal a fifth of the shortfall). Also, raising taxes on anybody doesn't make any difference...the total amount of ALL money available for taxes doesn't make a dent and the more you take out of the private sector, the less that comes back (that's the whole Laffer curve part that actually does make sense). Your "all I want is for everyone to pay their fair share" is BS (businesses and individuals flee high tax areas to low tax areas...it works for states and countries...the myth of taxing corporations more is both ineffective and counterproductive). The only chance at all...and everybody with skin in the game knows it...government has to scale back by roughly 20% at all levels (military, entitlements, social services). The really scary part is the fraudulent "$4 trillion dollar tax compromise" is just that...a fraud. Most of the savings are from a decreased rate of increase and are the equivalent of paper cuts, not economic surgery.

Personally, I think you are thoughtful, and probably pretty well read for your social circle (unlike the moron who called this an issue about race). Much of what you are repeating has some populist push behind it...but mathematically its snake oil. We have to stop letting our government rule with fear and division. You and I are not enemies and we are not enemies with companies or the rich. You, and I, and the rich, and companies, are on one side, and government is on the other.

I'm with you!!!

 

[MonacoMike]

This is one of my dislikes about this board, you mention or ask what people are seeing and you get a lot of BS, and Unrelated topics to the original Thread Topic, Again ... What did you people do with Garys Thread, it wasn't political at all.... so stick to the frickin topic I don't believe Gary asked for your political opinions, your opinions don't really matter in this thread, wow this actually hurt my head to read all this BS.....
Gary sorry for what has happened to this thread, Moderators start deleting when it doesn't pertain to the topic..I'm cool with that.

I respectfuly disagree that "political opinions" are off topic in this thread, it goes to the heart of our beloved passion as the thread title is:"State of the pleasure boat cruising economy". In your world would we just discuss empty marinas, closed restaurants, and high fuel prices while ignoring the structural issues that cause them? MM

 

[twyant]

The only way the cost of oil is going to go down is to drill here in the US and put everyone else out of business by doing so. Unfortunately, all those who benefit from the high price do not care and why would they? They are seeing record profits and are immensely enjoying it. The only thing I can think of to grab their attention is a downright mutiny, but unlike the union, liberal thugs that protest, I have to go to work.

 

[floriduramax1]

I am a corporation, a rather small one...lol, but income taxes follow through to my personal income tax and it looks like I make alot of money. You know, that over 250K that people think you are rich! Unfortunately, the bottom line is below what I made as an employee, especially considering the hours and stress levels. I pay more than a "fair share" in taxes! Can you believe I now have to pay personal tangible property tax on personal tools and Snap On tool boxes that I have had and paid taxes on for 15 plus years simply because I now use them at my business!!! And you call that fair??? Start a business yourself and when the "Taxman" comes around come back here and tell me how "fair" it is for you to put your neck on the line and take no family time to try to make a decent living only to keep paying more for drug dealing welfare collectors who get paid to keep having babies through these liberal social programs! Total B.S.!!


I sure hope this is not true... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu6ok5ykyuQ&feature=share

 

[Asureyez]

Report in SoFla. We are accustomed to high costs in every aspect of boating. So many Marina's have been bought by corportate marina operators who jack the rent without mercy, Developers buying up waterside and building condo's around the waterline removing small marina operators. Work Yards the same, hence less competition for business , the existing yards have pushed up rates. Long term marina rental is in many ICW spot at $1.50-2.75 ft a day here in SoFla!

In great economies and money is awash on the decks all our marine industries are jamming, but after a long 4 year drought, the hot money has been wrung from the peoples hands. Now boat owners find they can afford the boat, they just can't afford to use it as much.

Consider ULSD which is what all big boys drink is now over $3.60 a gal delivered in Bulk by a tanker, and over $4.60 a gal waterside and you burn 3-4 gallons to the mile, you think about how far, fast and long you are willing to run. The old 20 mile run to lunch and beer (240 gal), and back used to cost $250-300 in fuel, now it's $750 bucks in fuel.

So a combination of High Fuel, Repair costs, Outrageous Marina costs, and an uncertain economy and that upper middle class family with a 42 Sedan Bridge decides to just take a swim, or go to a movie or eat shore side and leave their Dock Queen alone.

just saying

 

[Woody]

I am a corporation, a rather small one...lol, but income taxes follow through to my personal income tax and it looks like I make alot of money. You know, that over 250K that people think you are rich! Unfortunately, the bottom line is below what I made as an employee, especially considering the hours and stress levels. I pay more than a "fair share" in taxes! Can you believe I now have to pay personal tangible property tax on personal tools and Snap On tool boxes that I have had and paid taxes on for 15 plus years simply because I now use them at my business!!! And you call that fair??? Start a business yourself and when the "Taxman" comes around come back here and tell me how "fair" it is for you to put your neck on the line and take no family time to try to make a decent living only to keep paying more for drug dealing welfare collectors who get paid to keep having babies through these liberal social programs! Total B.S.!!


I sure hope this is not true... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu6ok5ykyuQ&feature=share

I think there's more bull sh-t in that video than in my neighbors pasture.:smt101

 

[floriduramax1]

I think there's more bull sh-t in that video than in my neighbors pasture.:smt101

I am hoping that is the case!

 

[Turtlesboat]

I heard on the news this morning that the white house has a $14 congestion pricing bill from his limo trip in england. They didn't pay it and now it's up to $140. The white house says it's a tax and isn't required to pay it. I thought that was kind of funny.

 

[boltman]

Florida max, Buy a bigger boat and take your clients out on it, maybe even a small machine shop in the engine room, that way you can expense the boat, depreciate the hell out of it, and write it off as well, all while fixing the engines on your luxury yacht.

We bought our 480, sold it to the business and take clients out on it and drop a fish pole over the side once in awhile, but every one who comes on MY boat, has to listen to my sales pitch... selling them Nuts' bolts and screws...and even some stainless steel flatwashers here and there.
It's amazing how these 480 DB's can suck up the profits of a corporation...
Ok Back to the slow marina's, High priced Fuel, cause in My World it's not worth bitchin about, takes too much time..... In My world!!!!!!!!!