Official liberal thread:

[Pack66Dad]

Pack I will have to disagree with you. I believe Ron Reagan was on of the best presidents we had. I also think JFK was a good president. Everyone one else in between then and now has been crap. He was the last of the true Dems before the pot smoking hippie crowd took over.

As far as the Tea Party is concerned you really need to look at your facts and look at who some of these folks are. They are mostly independents who have had enough. It all started when Obama, Reid and Queen Pelosi thumbed their noses at those demonstrating in the capital a few years back about taxes.

The great power in this country is the people themselves. The elite like Obama, Reid and Pelosi are telling us THEY have our best intensions in mind which is BS!

That is why they are scared to death of people like Palin. Do I think she will make a good president, no I do not. A good VP yes. I also believe she has MORE power at the grass roots level than she will ever have in office and that just scares the crap out of folks that believe the government show take care of the people through handouts, instead of allowing good people to make America great.

Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.

History teaches that wars begin when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.

God Bless Ronald Reagan and those who fight and die just so I have the privilege to write these words...............I have said more above on politics than I have said in many years!

government of the people, by the people, for the people..... the propaganda machine on the right has done a great job. How else can so many people not understand that we are the government. :huh:

 

[AKBASSKING]

government of the people, by the people, for the people..... the propaganda machine on the right has done a great job. How else can so many people not understand that we are the government. :huh:

Good point and I think if you look at the results of the last election the "we the people" didn't like what was going on.

I feel the more I can back the federal government's hands out of my pocket the better.

Hence: Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.

 

[floriduramax1]

Your both full of crap, American workers are NOT LAZY :smt013
You can't invent your own facts to make an argument fit your Beck/Limbaugh view of the world.....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/03/business/main3228735.shtml

Are you serious?? Ironic that they show automobile production as they are "praising" America's workforce!! What "industry" are you in? Have you tried to hire someone lately? I don't listen to Limbaugh, I try to get people to come to work but guess what...why would folks want to work when they can sit at home and collect a check, welfare, free day care and not have to make a house payment? Either you are in a fantasy world or you need to go out side and look around....IMHO

 

[comsnark]

Akbassking is making some legitmate points.

Compared to some other contemporary Presidents. . Regan is sure looking
good.

I would definately rank both Bushes below Regan. Regan had something his Republican successors did not have: Vision. Bush Senior at least had a fair degree of competence; Bush Junior: not so much. Give Regan credit where credit is due: He outspent the Russians into bankruptcy, thus ending the cold war. Far better results than a shooting war alternative.

The cognitive dissonance (or is it simple hypocrisy?) of the last Republican administration (small government vs perscription drug coverage | | Small government vs. exploding earmarks) is what drove the independents running from the Republicans and swung governance to the other party.

And certainly, the last two years was very predictable in terms of the Democrats over-reaching (in terms of power) and the independents swinging back to the right and sweeping a bunch of Republicans back in as a result.

I am not going to comment on Obama because it is simply too early to judge. Gentlemen like Scott were declaring Obama worse than Carter before Obama even took office (probably before he won the election). Myself? I recognize that the economy was more or less in freefall two years ago -> lets see how -or if- it rebounds. Regarding the war on Terror: I see Obama stepping up activity in both Afganistan and Pakistan; he certainly is not walking away.

But bottom line: If the economy doesn't swing around in the next two years, the independents will continue to turn on the democrats. Unless the Republicans nominate someone like a halfbaked political commentator. . .. .

 

[JediJD]

Your both full of crap, American workers are NOT LAZY :smt013
You can't invent your own facts to make an argument fit your Beck/Limbaugh view of the world.....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/03/business/main3228735.shtml

Pack, try talking about something else...Nevada football perhaps. I've read all the threads and despite thowing firebombs, you have yet to defend a political, much less philosophical, conviction. Its a free country (until you guys screw it up), until then, you may want to stick to boats.

 

[Pack66Dad]

Are you serious?? Ironic that they show automobile production as they are "praising" America's workforce!! What "industry" are you in? Have you tried to hire someone lately? I don't listen to Limbaugh, I try to get people to come to work but guess what...why would folks want to work when they can sit at home and collect a check, welfare, free day care and not have to make a house payment? Either you are in a fantasy world or you need to go out side and look around....IMHO

Very serious. I have no problem finding bright, hard working dependable employees. AND, since I am a Union Contractor I am assured they are legal and drug free. Of course, I pay my employees a living wage that includes health care and pension so that probably helps garner me a better crop of applicants.
Its so funny to me, everything you guys rant about is exactly opposite of what I do and yet my business is very successful and my employees are happy. We even share the profits in the form of bonuses.
My wife and I firmly believe in all parts of life the promise that states: "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

 

[Pack66Dad]

Pack, try talking about something else...Nevada football perhaps. I've read all the threads and despite thowing firebombs, you have yet to defend a political, much less philosophical, conviction. Its a free country (until you guys screw it up), until then, you may want to stick to boats.

Take a look at the post below this one..... that is not just my political philosophy, its my personal philosophy too.

 

[floriduramax1]

Very serious. I have no problem finding bright, hard working dependable employees. AND, since I am a Union Contractor I am assured they are legal and drug free. Of course, I pay my employees a living wage that includes health care and pension so that probably helps garner me a better crop of applicants.
Its so funny to me, everything you guys rant about is exactly opposite of what I do and yet my business is very successful and my employees are happy. We even share the profits in the form of bonuses.
My wife and I firmly believe in all parts of life the promise that states: "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Ahhh!! Unions...now I understand where you are coming from. It's funny how they helped build America and now some are helping to bring her down:smt089 I also believe in fair pay for an honest days work. "For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you"....you and I at least agree on this statement, but around here we just call it "karma".

 

[skibum]

Your both full of crap, American workers are NOT LAZY :smt013
You can't invent your own facts to make an argument fit your Beck/Limbaugh view of the world.....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/03/business/main3228735.shtml

Pack... just so you know, a high productivity number only means that there are fewer workers doing more work.

When revenues are low and productivity is high, it only means that the employees who are still there are working their asses off to maintain margin.

When productivity and revenue are both up, it is a sign that the company is running on all cylinders. Not much of that going around these days.

And based on my personal experience in the great People's Republic of Maryland (2/3 demorat), people ARE in fact lazy. I've had more than one person tell me that they had turned down a $15/hr job in favor of staying on "benefits". Shoot, if it were my father or I when either of us were younger, we would have said, "Only $15/hr? Guess I'm going to need 2 jobs.".

You're just making excuses for a failed system and a society in decay.

 

[mddickens]

Very serious. I have no problem finding bright, hard working dependable employees. AND, since I am a Union Contractor I am assured they are legal and drug free. Of course, I pay my employees a living wage that includes health care and pension so that probably helps garner me a better crop of applicants.
Its so funny to me, everything you guys rant about is exactly opposite of what I do and yet my business is very successful and my employees are happy. We even share the profits in the form of bonuses.
My wife and I firmly believe in all parts of life the promise that states: "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

PackDad, I salute you. You have apparently built a successful company with dedicated, happy employees. It's very hard to do this. Your decisions re: hiring union employees, and giving a generous benefit package have paid off for you not only monetarily, but psychologically as well. You feel good about this and you deserve to! Well done! I also appreciate and agree with your religious philosophies.

I presume you made these decisions voluntarily and in accordance with your personal belief system. You also made these decisions without the coercion of the US government.

So, the question I have for you is: why do you support forcing your belief system on the rest of us through government coercion? This is clearly where the great divide between the left and right is. The left (particularly the Professional Left) supports forcing a particular belief system (and the concomitant taxes with which to finance this system) onto the citizens of this country. Conservatives and libertarians support the idea of each person making his or her own decisions free of oppressive government coercion.

As it happens, I agree with your employment philosophies (sans the union part), but I get there without having it shoved down my throat by bureaucrats. Why is it so hard for liberals to simply mind their own business and leave others alone?

 

[AKBASSKING]

PackDad, I salute you. You have apparently built a successful company with dedicated, happy employees. It's very hard to do this. Your decisions re: hiring union employees, and giving a generous benefit package have paid off for you not only monetarily, but psychologically as well. You feel good about this and you deserve to! Well done! I also appreciate and agree with your religious philosophies.

I presume you made these decisions voluntarily and in accordance with your personal belief system. You also made these decisions without the coercion of the US government.

So, the question I have for you is: why do you support forcing your belief system on the rest of us through government coercion? This is clearly where the great divide between the left and right is. The left (particularly the Professional Left) supports forcing a particular belief system (and the concomitant taxes with which to finance this system) onto the citizens of this country. Conservatives and libertarians support the idea of each person making his or her own decisions free of oppressive government coercion.

As it happens, I agree with your employment philosophies (sans the union part), but I get there without having it shoved down my throat by bureaucrats. Why is it so hard for liberals to simply mind their own business and leave others alone?

Good post. I agree.

To be fair to pack he does hang out from time to time with conservatives...................:wow:

 

[jason78]

So....it sounds like an agreement may have been made to continue the Bush-era tax rates for everyone including the "rich", although I am inclined to believe the democrats believe anyone who is actually paying taxes is "rich". Apparently they are going to extend the current 99 weeks of unemployment by another 13 months to a total of 3 years as a part of the "deal". I believe the extension of the Bush-Era rates are supposed to last for 2 years.

 

[comsnark]

<<sigh>>


So. . .starting with current law. . .the Democrats proposed a reduction in income tax rates which reduces government revenue $3T over 10 years. To make this pass, the Republicans demanded an additional revenue reduction that could potentially reduce government income another $800B over 10 years. To sweeten the pot. . .a few things got thrown in reducing revenue a few hundred billion in the next two years?

What is WRONG with these people?

Really. . . talk about morons.

Nobody is even HINTING at reducing a DIME of spending.

Heh. . well. . more money in my pocket. I wonder if it is too late to get on the GOLD bandwagon.

 

[Woody]

<<sigh>>


So. . .starting with current law. . .the Democrats proposed a reduction in income tax rates which reduces government revenue $3T over 10 years. To make this pass, the Republicans demanded an additional revenue reduction that could potentially reduce government income another $800B over 10 years. To sweeten the pot. . .a few things got thrown in reducing revenue a few hundred billion in the next two years?

What is WRONG with these people?

Really. . . talk about morons.

Nobody is even HINTING at reducing a DIME of spending.

Heh. . well. . more money in my pocket. I wonder if it is too late to get on the GOLD bandwagon.

What's this reference to 10yrs? Maybe I missed the latest update but I thought the big items were a 2yr extension of Bush's cuts. This is disappointing. Is the president an eunuch.

 

[mddickens]

So....it sounds like an agreement may have been made to continue the Bush-era tax rates for everyone including the "rich", although I am inclined to believe the democrats believe anyone who is actually paying taxes is "rich". Apparently they are going to extend the current 99 weeks of unemployment by another 13 months to a total of 3 years as a part of the "deal". I believe the extension of the Bush-Era rates are supposed to last for 2 years.

And in addition, there is a payroll tax reduction for employees only from 6.2% to 4.2% for FICA. Employers don't get a break from that, so there won't be any stimulative hiring effect from that decision. It's just a 2% savings for employees.

 

[jason78]

Very serious. I have no problem finding bright, hard working dependable employees. AND, since I am a Union Contractor I am assured they are legal and drug free.

Pack, I too commend you for running a successful company but I was wondering what about being a Union contractor guarantees you legal, drug free employees? I agree the majority are but the Unions (in general) really don't have the best track record for weeding out problem or illegal workers, do they? Maybe the Union you are affiliated is different.

I have quite a few friends and some family who are happy union workers for the most part. They do however have more than one story about how the Union protected various employees on drugs, people who got in repeat accidents in company trucks, numerous safety violations, etc. over and over again and it took the companies years to fire those employees because of Union protection.

My question is, what would you do if you ended up with an employee that went bad? With your Union, can you just fire them to do you have to continue to employ them as a liability for years before the Union rep agrees they can go?

 

[comsnark]

What's this reference to 10yrs? Maybe I missed the latest update but I thought the big items were a 2yr extension of Bush's cuts. This is disappointing. Is the president an eunuch.

Sorry about that: I am a bit confused on what is permanent and what is temporary. I was a bit curious on the overall numbers. . all I found in the quick searches were 10 yr numbers.

From a fiscal conservative point of view, when you are in a budget deficit, you need to balance revenue cuts with spending cuts. Not balance revenue cuts with other revenue cuts.

And in addition, there is a payroll tax reduction for employees only from 6.2% to 4.2% for FICA. Employers don't get a break from that, so there won't be any stimulative hiring effect from that decision. It's just a 2% savings for employees.

Well. . it is a 2% savings for people who are mostly spending money paycheck to paycheck. That is direct economic spending -> which is what they are trying to achieve. If a business begins hiring new employees because of a temporary 2% wage tax break -> let me know, cause I want to invest in their competitors.

But your broader point is legitimate. There is NOTHING in this package which reduces unemployment in the U.S. (Probably stimulates growth in China, however).

 

[Woody]

It sounds like the 2% reduction in payroll tax will be in the form of a credit. Those billions of $$$ will be made up for with $$$ from the general fund so that the effect on ones future SS is -0-. In a nutshell, the gov is advancing us some money that we'll be expected to repay...this is a loan. Again there is no free lunch.

 

[jason78]

And in addition, there is a payroll tax reduction for employees only from 6.2% to 4.2% for FICA. Employers don't get a break from that, so there won't be any stimulative hiring effect from that decision. It's just a 2% savings for employees.

Part of me wonders if the 2% savings is to help mask the increase many are going to see starting in 2011 on their Health Insurance Premium deductions from the parts of Obamacare that have already started. Ours went up more than it has before. The actual increase was not as bad as I had thought it would be but the co-pays went up and benefits were reduced for 2011 on the same "Package" we have now.

 

[mddickens]

Part of me wonders if the 2% savings is to help mask the increase many are going to see starting in 2011 on their Health Insurance Premium deductions from the parts of Obamacare that have already started. Ours went up more than it has before. The actual increase was not as bad as I had thought it would be but the co-pays went up and benefits were reduced for 2011 on the same "Package" we have now.

Nah, I don't think Obama was thinking that far ahead. He was just trying to get some "red meat" for the Professional Left. As it is, they are livid (more like meltdown) about extending the current tax rates. The sad thing about the 2% reduction is that aside from putting additional cash in the hands of employees, it does nothing to stimulate hiring since employers don't get a break. Before someone pipes up and tells me that putting 2% back in the pockets of employees will result in greater spending, greater demand and therefore hiring, please keep in mind that most people will use this to pay down debt or other basic obligations...there may be a few who will use it to buy a high quality Government Motors vehicle, but I don't think that will happen much. No, this move is just to try and placate his liberal supporters and give him cover to say that "he got a good deal" in the negotiations with the Republicans, when in reality, he got his ass kicked, as usual.