MAN diesel experience?

[ranger58sb]

All this adds up to 25k....and who knows what else they may find once they get in there.....turbo....exhaust manifold....elbows.....etc.

Indeed. Have you already lowered your offer by $25K to start?

That sort of approach worked for us, although not without initial question by the seller. I simply pointed to the estimated cost for work the PO hadn't done....

-Chris

 

[SeaNile]

Indeed. Have you already lowered your offer by $25K to start?

That sort of approach worked for us, although not without initial question by the seller. I simply pointed to the estimated cost for work the PO hadn't done....

-Chris

Yes, my worry is it quickly exceeds 25k based on lack of history, salt water boat and the unknown of what else they find when they look at the generator as well.

Once again, if we could eliminate the 10% broker fee this deal would have been done by now!!

 

[ranger58sb]

Yes, my worry is it quickly exceeds 25k based on lack of history, salt water boat and the unknown of what else they find when they look at the generator as well.

We did indeed find further flaws during survey/sea trial... but then we went back to renegotiate price yet again based on those new findings, too.

The additional work wasn't insignificant. One exhaust riser needed replaced (so I opted to replace the same riser on both engines), both displays needed repair, and both MMDS boards needed repair. We didn't get it all covered by purchase price negotiations... but came close enough that I could justify going forward.

FWIW, GCD came within about $1500 of their overall/combined written estimates, and that also included a 1000-hour service on the genset that we decided to do based on survey results. I'd guess MAN people up here could come equally close with good estimates.

-Chris

 

[fwebster]

Omitting factory required service on a big diesel can have significant down stream consequences with respect to warranties and TSB updates.

I run a 50 Viking Sportfisherman for a friend when he cannot be in Florida. It has those 10 cylinder MAN's that turn off 5 cylinders when it is between idle and about 1100 rpm. MAN contacted him right after he bought the boat to schedule an inspection of his cylinders for unusual wear patterns…..as soon as he furnished the MAN service company with proof that his engines had both had all regular services done. Thankfully, we had all the MAN service caught up as soon as he bought the boat and he could produce receipts for the service.

MAN covered the $25,000 inspection under their extended warranty program. They disassembled the engines, bore scoped and re-honing of all 20 cylinders and reinstalled the heads……2 mechanics were on the boat for 7 days and I saw the invoice for the work………$0.

I still hate the way those damned things run and smoke when 1/2 the cylinders are turned off!

 

[carterchapman]

I know I will get blasted for this, but that is a reason I will never own a MAN powered boat. While MAN's are amazing engines I just don't have the pockets to fund them on a regular basis, not to mention having to pay a mechanic to do the work. Even if I could throw $20K+ every year or two (and that's just injectors), I am not sure I would do that. I am just not made that way, personal defect I guess.

No blast, but in general, as the boat gets larger, the costs go up almost exponentially. Most of the MANs are in 55’+ boats, and you get into V8’s/V10’s/V12/V16’s by MAN/MTU (occasionally see CAT C32’s) as you get into the 65’ and above. A huge cost of operations difference from 350HP 3126’s or 600 HP Cummins.

So saying your statement another way, rather than saying you “will never own a MAN powered boat”, you are really saying “ I will never own a 60’+ boat” - due to the cost of ownership. That first MAN A1/A2/M1-6 service is not for the “faint of heart”!! I can only imagine what it is for a pair of 2000HP MTU V16’s.

 

[carterchapman]

I still hate the way those damned things run and smoke when 1/2 the cylinders are turned off!

They do sound like “a bucket of hammers” at idle! Glad the CRMs don’t deactivate cylinders below 1100 rpm.

 

[ttmott]

Trying to understand how a malfunctioning injector can burn a hole in a piston?

 

[SeaNile]

Trying to understand how a malfunctioning injector can burn a hole in a piston?

Spray pattern not being even? Maybe it comes out like a power washer on direct? Or one side of piston gets too little fuel?

 

[Jus the two of us]

If a Diesel engine runs lean it just loses power, It does not get hotter like a gas engine. The Damage you are seeing in the pics of the piston is from to much fuel, When the fuel dosent burn it washes the oil from the cylinder walls and that starts the wear. Always look at your oil samples, It will show how much fuel in in your oil. This in my opinion one of the best tools to tell if your injectors are healthy.Of coarse if it smokes like a train you can probably skip the oil samples and go ahead and order a set.

 

[ranger58sb]

Always look at your oil samples, It will show how much fuel in in your oil. This in my opinion one of the best tools to tell if your injectors are healthy

Good point.

FWIW, our most recent samples showed less than 0.5%, and values should be less than 2.0%.... and from that I'm believing values from samples could well be a good way to monitor injectors.

-Chris

 

[carterchapman]

Trying to understand how a malfunctioning injector can burn a hole in a piston?

I understand a few years ago MAN specified replacement injectors from a particular vendor - and they burned a number of engines up. Needless to say they changed vendors. I don’t know if they covered the expenses or not.

 

[Jus the two of us]

If a Diesel engine runs lean it just loses power, It does not get hotter like a gas engine. The Damage you are seeing in the pics of the piston is from to much fuel, When the fuel dosent burn it washes the oil from the cylinder walls and that starts the wear. Always look at your oil samples, It will show how much fuel in in your oil. This in my opinion one of the best tools to tell if your injectors are healthy.Of coarse if it smokes like a train you can probably skip the oil samples and go ahead and order a set.

To add to this, You can burn a piston in a deisel engine but it is usally caused by timing issues, pre detonation, and air flow problems. Injectors alone I don,t think would do that with out other contributing factors. If a engine is running bad enough to do that kind of damage and you have not noticed a change in sound or preformance, You may need to get a diffrent Hobby.
T

 

[Skybolt]

... So saying your statement another way, rather than saying you “will never own a MAN powered boat”, you are really saying “ I will never own a 60’+ boat” - due to the cost of ownership. That first MAN A1/A2/M1-6 service is not for the “faint of heart”!! I can only imagine what it is for a pair of 2000HP MTU V16’s.

Actually no, I would gladly foot the coast of a 58'+ boat if that was my choice. I still would not get a boat with MAN diesels. That is also by choice, you can say I don't want to pay the exuberant cost of running those diesels. I still think they are great running engines, can't knock them for that in any way.

 

[ranger58sb]

Time will tell, I guess, but it looks to me like the cost of maintaining our MAN 900s will be pretty much the same as it would be for Volvo D13s, Cat C12s/3196s, MTU S60/825s, etc... and probably less than it would be for larger Cats (C18, C32) and MTUs.

I guess (really guessing) Cummins QSM-11s would be less expensive to maintain but I think they aren't making anything larger than that for the marine industry...

But in the grand scheme of things inspecting is inspecting, changing oil is changing oil, replacing filters is replacing filters, replacing hoses is replacing hoses, etc.

Have to admit, I'm surprised by that whole "checking/replacing injectors every two years" issue and that seems like an obstacle... and it could certainly add to costs... although apparently that's only about their older engines so I've not been anticipating that for ours...

-Chris

 

[carterchapman]

Actually no, I would gladly foot the coast of a 58'+ boat if that was my choice. I still would not get a boat with MAN diesels. That is also by choice, you can say I don't want to pay the exuberant cost of running those diesels. I still think they are great running engines, can't knock them for that in any way.

I think you are missing my point - if you want a 58+ boat, you are going to have to have MANs or MTUs with a few that may have big common rail CATs - no other choices in the +1000 HP class. They are the only engines available and aftercooler/charge air cooler maintenance costs are comparable. The larger ones even have 4 turbos per engine instead of two.

Just regular systems costs go way up as well on larger boats - my 340 had one A/C unit, my 410 had two. My 58 has FIVE. And on and on…

 

[ttmott]

If a Diesel engine runs lean it just loses power, It does not get hotter like a gas engine. The Damage you are seeing in the pics of the piston is from to much fuel, When the fuel dosent burn it washes the oil from the cylinder walls and that starts the wear. Always look at your oil samples, It will show how much fuel in in your oil. This in my opinion one of the best tools to tell if your injectors are healthy.Of coarse if it smokes like a train you can probably skip the oil samples and go ahead and order a set.

That is my experience also. Never heard of blowing a hole in a piston. The pictures in previous post is exactly that; too much fuel washing the lubrication from the cylinder.

 

[Skybolt]

I think you are missing my point - if you want a 58+ boat, you are going to have to have MANs or MTUs with a few that may have big common rail CATs - no other choices in the +1000 HP class. They are the only engines available and aftercooler/charge air cooler maintenance costs are comparable. The larger ones even have 4 turbos per engine instead of two.

Just regular systems costs go way up as well on larger boats - my 340 had one A/C unit, my 410 had two. My 58 has FIVE. And on and on…

@carterchapman please do not assume I do not understand the configuration of larger boats or there cost to operate or my experience with them. I choose to own the boat I do and love it. My statement still stands, but I would buy a boat with MTU's in it in a minute. I love Detroit's always have and always will.

@SeaNile sorry to divert your thread. I should not have post my thoughts on Mans. My apologies.

 

[SeaNile]

@carterchapman please do not assume I do not understand the configuration of larger boats or there cost to operate or my experience with them. I choose to own the boat I do and love it. My statement still stands, but I would buy a boat with MTU's in it in a minute. I love Detroit's always have and always will.

@SeaNile sorry to divert your thread. I should not have post my thoughts on Mans. My apologies.

No apology needed. The more MAN talk the better. Helps us all in this thread.

 

[ranger58sb]

But I (quickly) reviewed the thread and my thought (part 1) start with your post #37:

Our maintenance schedule differs from the #37 one, and also the one you just attached. Your recent attachment says A1 includes checking/replacing injectors (that was A4 in your #37 post, but essentially similar).

Still thinking about this... in your Post #37 it said replace every 1200 hours... and in a subsequent post you mentioned every 2 years or 1000 hours, whichever comes first... and then in the file you posted more recently (that differed from ours) it said check/replace every 2 years (assuming the "replace" means if necessary).

The hours limits suggest this could be a once-every-ten years or so for many folks, if it weren't for the "whichever comes first" thing.

But maybe that speaks to expected life span, which could mean checking every two years could usually be exactly that: dismount, test, find good, remount. Have you gotten estimates for that?

Could you dismount injectors yourself? Have tested, then also do the remount?

-Chris

 

[ttmott]

Spray pattern not being even? Maybe it comes out like a power washer on direct? Or one side of piston gets too little fuel?

There is simply no logical way an injector malfunction will burn or torch a hole in a piston. The physics don't exist. I don't even think one can change the timing enough to get enough focused thermal energy especially in a non-modified marine engine. Plus all modern diesel engines have oil sprays under the pistons to control temperature. However, you can break a piston due to over fueling and hydraulicing the cylinder, or like said wash down the cylinder and ruin a piston due to lack of lubrication or drop an injector nose or valve and damage a piston.
If you go back on some of my posts two years ago, I had a newly installed Cummins injector malfunction on my QSM11 and it actually filled up the crankcase with fuel. My regiment of monitoring the engine, maintenance, and oil sampling caught it and avoided any damage. The message here is to take what is on youtube and other social media with a grain of salt, pragmatism, and implement critical thinking. Do the maintenance per the book and sample the oil every oil change.