How safe do you feel?

Well tonight they were rioting in Pittsburgh and throwing stones off the bridges trying to hit boats and they attacked 2 or 3 local TV news reporters that are well known in this area as they are on TV every night. 2 were hospitalized after being knocked down and kicked and stomped on. Sorry but if I'm getting kicked in the head somebody is getting a bullet to theirs. These people are no longer protesting the George Floyd incident, they are now using this as an excuse to steal and cause as much damage and break as many laws as they can. They just showed on the news an electronics store was broken into and people were carrying out new video games consoles and shopping carts full of electronics. Hope to see store owners staying in their stores and start defending themselves.
 
They apparently looted at a local outlet mall. Not close to me, but a place they actually had to travel to in order to do the deed. Thus, I no longer feel as safe as I did a few days ago. Seriously thinking about an AR.
 
Those of you who are making comments about owning or using guns, let me make a comment to you.

If, though the odds are very slim, you end up shooting someone while protecting your property and someone tips off the dead/wounded guy's attorney that you made the comments, that attorney is going to use your statements against you and you will end up with a new arsehole because he ripped you one. Also, shooting someone to protect your property is not legal. Shooting someone to protect your life or the life of another MIGHT be legal. Circumstances would dictate whether or not it would be legal.
 
Gofirstclass said:
Those of you who are making comments about owning or using guns, let me make a comment to you.

If, though the odds are very slim, you end up shooting someone while protecting your property and someone tips off the dead/wounded guy's attorney that you made the comments, that attorney is going to use your statements against you and you will end up with a new arsehole because he ripped you one. Also, shooting someone to protect your property is not legal. Shooting someone to protect your life or the life of another MIGHT be legal. Circumstances would dictate whether or not it would be legal.
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Michigan law says we can defend our property. If someone means to harm you and enters your home you have every right to pull the trigger while they are within. Florida is the same way. I am not an advocate for such action but would most certainly take thataction, use my train9ng and resolve the issue in the event my family were threatened. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Old guy with not many years left
 
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Also, what would a prosecutor read? We are willing to defend ourselves if our lives or family’s lives are threatened?
 
I gave up being a city-rat about 17 years ago, so I'd have to say a 10. Looking back, living in a city seems unnatural and perverse to me. A nearby town of about 30000, had some minor protests but really, other than violently spitting out their chewing gum, there wasn't much to be afraid of.

One of these days, perhaps the media will be able to figure out the difference between a protest and a mob of thugs. Apparently the distinction is currently beyond their intellectual capacity.
 
Phasma said:
you obviously do not know Michigan law. We can defend our property. If someone means to harm you and enters your home you have every right to pull the trigger while they are within. Florida is the same way. I am not an advocate for such action but would most certainly take thataction, use my train9ng and resolve the issue in the event my family were threatened.
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Phasma, you are speaking in circles. First you talk about defending your property. Good luck with that in court.

Next you talk about someone entering your home with the intent to harm you. If you or your family is threatened you do have the right to defend yourself or those in your presence. That is a radically different situation than defending your property. It might behoove you to do some research and make certain you know what the difference is.

Talk of bravado doesn't get you very far with the police who will be investigating you nor with the attorney who represents the guy you shot.

Just sayin'
 
So if I threaten your home or family you won’t pull a weapon. Some states that action would get you charged with brandishing. You state you are retired police. I am certain youwould do what it takes to protect your property or family. I am not talking in circles. You seem to be attempting to confuse the idea that in Michigan you are allowed to defend your property and life with fatal results. I am not saying you won’t be taken to jail. You will be given the ipportunity to defend yourself in court. If it is determined you were in fear of your life or another’s life, you will be found innocent. The propertyI am referring to is your home. Relying on the police to defend us is a misnomer. They are great at investigating after the fact. Not so good at protecting us
 
Tell it to the guy who was beaten into critical condition as thugs looted his store. A violent mob of people coming at me threatens my life.

Unless and until they start taking these thugs out, fk it. At the bottom of my TV screen it says the Superintendent of Police says “lawlessness will not be tolerated” as the tv shows thugs looting an entire strip mall in real time.
 
This is anarchy. If the police and national guard can not quell this uprising, it will get worse. This is one of the reasons for the second amendment. I live in the country and am very glad of it
 
The difference is advertising what you would do. Justified or not an attorney will try to make the jury believe you were 'hoping' and 'planning' for the opportunity to shoot someone. They would try to paint a picture to the jury of a vigilante and use that against you.

Something else to keep in mind, civil cases are a whole different animal. Even if you were found to be justified in a criminal court the family could still pursue civil action and then the jury does not need to be unanimous.

All that said, I would defend myself or any others by whatever means necessary but hope I never have to and would try my hardest to either avoid those situations or find another way out. Even if justified it would be one of the worst days of my life.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney
 
Phasma said:
Michigan law says we can defend our property. If someone means to harm you and enters your home you have every right to pull the trigger while they are within. Florida is the same way. I am not an advocate for such action but would most certainly take thataction, use my train9ng and resolve the issue in the event my family were threatened. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Old guy with not many years left
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You have to think about what your defending, property or life. One allows for lethal force the other doesn't.

If you catch some guy in your garage stealing your lawnmower the law doesn't allow lethal force. If when you catch him he pulls a gun on you, then the law does allow for lethal force. At that point you're defending life and not property.

In each state's laws that I've read the concept of 'reasonable force' is present.
 
My original point was that if someone tries to get into my home and I am in fear of my life, in Michigan it is legal to use deadly force. I never said anything about lawn mowers or garages. I further said I am not advocating this at all. I agree that it would be a horrifying day. I wasn’t speaking bravado. I was merely debating the pount with GFC that Michigan law allows for it. GFC made a blanket statement that it MIGHT be legal. I merely pointed out that it IS legal in Michigan.

A prosecutor would have a very difficult time proving any kind of vigilante justice if the deceased was shot attempting to enter my home. I would never shoot through a door or wall but if they were coming through the window or kicking my door in it becomes very evident their intent

i shudder at the idea of that situation in light of the current events in our cities
 
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Phasma, again you are talking in circles...
"So if I threaten your home or family you won’t pull a weapon."
The distinction must be made here between "your home" (which is simply property) and "or family" which is a totally different concept.

In any state and under most circumstances you are NOT allowed to use deadly force to protect your property. You ARE allowed to use deadly force to protect your life or the life of another if you fear that your life or theirs may be in jeopardy.

You keep going back and forth between protecting life or property (your words). There is a clear distinction and that distinction is what will keep you out of jail or get you locked up for what could be a long time.

Don't believe that to be true? Just shoot some guy who is attempting to damage or steal your property (your words again).

"A prosecutor would have a very difficult time proving any kind of vigilante justice if the deceased was shot attempting to enter my home. "
Again, here you are talking about protecting lives vs protecting your home if you didn't feel your life was in danger.

"You seem to be an intelligent, experienced guy. I only have one more question. Do you own a gun? Why?"
Yes, I do own a gun and it is to protect my life or the life of another in my presence. Not my property.

Phasma, you linked to the article about using deadly force in Michigan. It pretty much reads the same in all states with some very minor exceptions.

The part you need to study is:
"Statutory Definition: Presumption Regarding Self Defense"


In a civil or criminal case, an individual who uses force (including deadly force) out of a reasonable belief that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if both of the following apply:

  1. The individual against whom force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a home or business (or still present after this has occurred); committing a home invasion; unlawfully attempting to take someone from a home or business; or has occupied one's vehicle against their will.
  2. The individual using force honestly and reasonably believes that the individual is engaging in conduct described above.

Phasma, please note that while it does describe a home invasion, section 2 must also be present. Using deadly force against another simply because he breaks into your home is not justifiable unless the shooter believes he/she may be subjected to death or great bodily harm.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer than what Michigan has already written down in their laws. Open your mind and your eyes enough to see the distinction.

I'm going to bed. I'll check back in tomorrow.
 
Gofirstclass said:
Those of you who are making comments about owning or using guns, let me make a comment to you.

If, though the odds are very slim, you end up shooting someone while protecting your property and someone tips off the dead/wounded guy's attorney that you made the comments, that attorney is going to use your statements against you and you will end up with a new arsehole because he ripped you one. Also, shooting someone to protect your property is not legal. Shooting someone to protect your life or the life of another MIGHT be legal. Circumstances would dictate whether or not it would be legal.
Click to expand...

This isn’t the case in Florida my man. If I fear for my life I have the right to stand-my-ground and pull the trigger.

The question I always wondered about is, how many times can I pull that trigger?
 
You still seem to think like a police officer. You see things one way...your way. I clearly stated the property I referred to was my home. Like most police officers you appear to use a previously unclarified comment to trip up the person of interest and advance your agenda. I continued to clarify my comments, sent you a link to the Michigan law yet you continue your barrage of comments and criticisms concerning my ability to present my case. You picked my every word apart in order to argue to be right. If you feel so strongly that I am wrong in my position feel free to argue your point with the Michigan legislature. I am telling you what the law is. There have been many incidence that has generated case law. I am just glad that we have the court system that at least partially protects us from overzeolous police officers up to and including those that would do us harm or violate our rights. I believe I covered all of your objections when I pointed out that if a perp were to break into my home and I was in fear of my life I would be justified in the state of Michigan. I dont have to wait until I am shot or stabbed. If I am in fear of my life and the perp is in my home. BOOM. I would be defending my home and my life. While that situation may not be true in Washington it is true in Michigan which was my original point. Rereading the law it also allows for deadly force in your car and attempted rape. Of course carrying a loaded weapon in your car may cause another list of issues. I digress...
 
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There is also a duty to retreat. In most (if not all) states this does not apply to the home due to the Castle Doctrine. If you are out in public and somebody pulls a gun and points it at you and there is an exit for you then there may be an issue with justification if you choose to return fire. Law enforcement is not bound by the duty to retreat. In most cases it will come down to how well you can articulate why you were not able to retreat.

Be sure to know the laws pertaining to your state as they may vary
 
At home 10, not because of my firearms but because of where my home is. There's nothing out here to burn or loot. If the rats do get into the house then it's a different story. Whatever happens I'm ready to accept any attorneys challenge to my actions.

In my opinion the Dems are loving and hating this. The complete lack of regional leadership is showing.

Today I travel to NC and while I'm concerned I still give my safety around a 8.
 
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