? for the pilots here...

[Hampton]

Quite True John, Lost 2 more in the Stan last month. (Randy and John) True American Heroes!

I am very sorry. I know what it feels like. God bless.

 

[tobnpr]

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but since alot of you guys have already winterized your boats...
Is IFR flying statistically significantly more dangerous than VFR?

Stupid question #2...
When I first started open ocean boating many years ago, I intentionally went out in increasingly worse conditions to "learn" how to handle a boat in big seas.

Natch, mis-handling of a boat in rough seas isn't going to kill you (hell, even if the boat sinks you're going to be fine with the proper safety equipment aboard).

If you're IFR certified, do you intentionally fly at night, or in low-vis conditions for "practice" and to stay sharp? Do most private pilots end up IFR certified, or is it mostly unnecessary for "fun" flying?

 

[chuck1]

IMHO - Only a fool takes off in bad weather when they don't have to. That is what the hood is for!
If you are talking clear skies (VFR) as local fun flying no you don't need to get your IFR rating, but if you talking taking weekend trips 100s of miles away then yes you should see about getting your IFR rating.

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but since alot of you guys have already winterized your boats...
Is IFR flying statistically significantly more dangerous than VFR?

Stupid question #2...
When I first started open ocean boating many years ago, I intentionally went out in increasingly worse conditions to "learn" how to handle a boat in big seas.

Natch, mis-handling of a boat in rough seas isn't going to kill you (hell, even if the boat sinks you're going to be fine with the proper safety equipment aboard).

If you're IFR certified, do you intentionally fly at night, or in low-vis conditions for "practice" and to stay sharp? Do most private pilots end up IFR certified, or is it mostly unnecessary for "fun" flying?

 

[comsnark]

I have pilot friends. They often use this expression;

"Better to use good judgement skills than to have to use good flying skills".

 

[Kameroo]

>>is there usually air conditioning on the smaller planes? This (comfort) would be a big deal for the rest of the clan.

We used to take our family of 5 all over the place. In the winter, there is heat, but the aircraft is drafty. Blankets were the norm for the kids. In the summer, the best flying is done between sunrise and 11 am. After that, it gets bumpy and you have to go higher and higher to stay above the building cumulus clouds. Even then, you still have to descend and land in the bumps. It took a couple barf bag episodes to convince everybody that getting up early was the only way to go. Remember also that the air cools as you climb, so at 6000' it may be nice and cool with just the vents going. Most smaller aircraft don't have air conditioning.

To see what airplanes are going for, go to tradeaplane.com and search single engine piston/Piper Warrior for starters. I still say drop everything and go get a demo flight!

 

[Larry]

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but since alot of you guys have already winterized your boats...
Is IFR flying statistically significantly more dangerous than VFR?


Well you can look at this a few ways, most accidents happen in VFR conditions, but the most dagerus scenario is a VFR pilot flying into IFR conditions. I think they say the life expectency of a VFR pilot in IFR conditions is about 26 seconds.... Basicly VFR flying is using a minumal amount of instruments to acomplish a flight in descent weather, IFR flying takes navigating to a whole other level, as well a greater understanding of weather. The use of FAA approved sims are very helpfull in staying current in IFR flying, but you sure do want some actual time shooting approches down to minumums!! The thing that takes getting use to, is when you are down to the minumums.... and there are no runway lights, and you go missed approach...

I would recomend after you get your private, to get some hours under your belt just flying and getting comfortable in the plane before moving on to getting your Instrument rating, Someone above mention the new Recreational (Sport) license, I would not bother with this (IMOP) and go for your private.

 

[katricol]

EVE RY recreational pilot I have known (ok, except one) has spent alot of money getting a licence: and then let that licence lapse when he could'nt afford to keep up with the costs of being a rec. pilot. Spent 8 to 10 K , then nothing.....kids, mortgage, cars, etc always seem to come in the way.....just saying

 

[Kameroo]

EVE RY recreational pilot I have known (ok, except one) has spent alot of money getting a licence: and then let that licence lapse when he could'nt afford to keep up with the costs of being a rec. pilot. Spent 8 to 10 K , then nothing.....kids, mortgage, cars, etc always seem to come in the way.....just saying

I would agree that some drop the hobby. Others enjoy it so much that they join clubs or find aircraft partnerships to keep it affordable. They use it to extend their businesses or to turn 6-hour drives into 1 1/2 hour flights and make weekend getaways easier. I even knew a stock broker who gave up a six-figure career to fly for a living. I don't know to this day if he's making what he used to, but he loves flying and wouldn't do anything else.

One big difference spending money on an airplane is that you still have expenses when you get to your destination. Those would include ramp fees, landing fees, car rental, hotel, etc. On the boat, you reach your anchorage, turn off the key and your variable costs (excluding beer) go to zero.

 

[Kameroo]

...forgot to mention, if you want to convince your wife that buying an aircraft is a good idea: Take her somewhere last minute on the airlines. Book less than 24 hours, and pay cash for your ticket. After she gets patted down, remind her how nice it would be to fly from your local airport and skip all the cattle-car and TSA nonsense.

 

[Hampton]

One big difference spending money on an airplane is that you still have expenses when you get to your destination. Those would include ramp fees, landing fees, car rental, hotel, etc. On the boat, you reach your anchorage, turn off the key and your variable costs (excluding beer) go to zero.

AGREED!

As I've posted before, my boat costs $335/hour to operate, and about $20/hour to enjoy (engines only running 1/17th of the time.)

 

[Hampton]

VFR flying is generally significantly safer. The problem is, the only change than can happen is IFR, and as posted above, a VFR pilot in IFR conditions is certain death (Kennedy).

Take an IFR pilot - the most likely change is flying into VFR conditions - GREAT! The problem is, if you get too comfortable and fly into conditions below the minimums for your equipment, quick death follows any wrong/delayed decision, and may still follow subsequent good decisions. You have to have discipline. You need to leave yourself an out. You cannot fall prey to "Get-there-itis."

 

[Riptide III]

HI John
Just curious, How can your boat cost you $335/hr to operate plus $20. I just cant wrap my little brain around this. My boats cost me fuel... I could, and should factor in $210 to launch her (the biggest one) and $210 to pull her out at the end of the year. Bottom paint every 3 years and misc (oil filters ect). I could factor in the life expect of the engines but they are gas burners I can build one for under a grand. What am I missing?
Phil

 

[Rxflyer]

Shortly after you take an intro lesson or two, get a flight physical. There are a multitude of medical conditions and Rx meds that can disqualify you as a pilot. You can get all the dual you can afford without a medical, but no solo time. Do this before you spend a lot of money on lessons & equipment.

You can spend as much as you want to, on a plane. Remember you need to insure it too, and low-time, inexperienced pilots pay a pretty stiff premium. Maintaining a plane correctly costs a lot of money, and there's not a lot you can legally do yourself to defray that expense. Some, but nothing major. FAA is real funny about that. And remember the FAA motto: "We're not happy until you're not happy". I don't recommend buying a 2-place plane to train in. You'll quickly grow tired of the lack of space and performance. Good examples are hard to find, too; there's a lot of really doggy, tired trainers out there. I would suggest something like a Cessna 172 or Piper Archer, which are docile, roomy, and allow you to take some baggage (besides her), with you. Remember that your plane requires an annual inspection, regardless of how much you fly it. Or how little. These can be real budget-busters. And if you don't get it done, your insurance will be void, and the plane is illegal to fly.

Instructors. Don't be afraid to change them. You'll probably have to. I recommend finding an older instructor vs. a young, newly minted one, especially starting out. You want an instructor who WANTS TO INSTRUCT, not a time-builder looking for a right-seat job on a commuter airline. First-learned = best learned, and learning the basics is a mighty important thing. Sound fundamentals make a strong base.
Get some taildragger instruction at some point; it will make you a better pilot, and help you understand how easy it really is to land a 'nosedragger'. (You won't think landing anything is easy for a while !)

I've flown for over 20 years, owned a couple of single-engine planes. Been in a partnership, and spent way too much money getting ratings and building hours. But getting your pilot's license is a mighty achievement, and puts you in a pretty select group. Remember this: not all pilots get to be professional pilots, but every pilot should strive to fly in a professional manner. Feel free to IM me with any questions. I can probably answer them - because I've probably asked them myself. Good luck !

 

[chuck1]

HI John
Just curious, How can your boat cost you $335/hr to operate plus $20. I just cant wrap my little brain around this. My boats cost me fuel... I could, and should factor in $210 to launch her (the biggest one) and $210 to pull her out at the end of the year. Bottom paint every 3 years and misc (oil filters ect). I could factor in the life expect of the engines but they are gas burners I can build one for under a grand. What am I missing?
Phil

Depreciation, Slip fees, insurance, fuel, service, maintenance, etc, etc.

 

[Hampton]

HI John
Just curious, How can your boat cost you $335/hr to operate plus $20. I just cant wrap my little brain around this. My boats cost me fuel... I could, and should factor in $210 to launch her (the biggest one) and $210 to pull her out at the end of the year. Bottom paint every 3 years and misc (oil filters ect). I could factor in the life expect of the engines but they are gas burners I can build one for under a grand. What am I missing?
Phil

It's $335 to operate which divides down to only $20/hour to enjoy.

Quck math
Depreciation $1500
Ins 200
Gas 500
Dock 150
Fix 300
Paint 100
Quick Total 2750/month

75 hours per year, gives $440 per hour to operate. I don't think I allowed that much depreciation when I did the math. Maintenance isn't that much either.

 

[Riptide III]

WOW! You suck!:smt001 You really openned my eyes. :smt017House is on the water, slip is in my yard. But now you have me looking at it from a whole new perspective. Property tax, dock maint. ect. The only thing that is stopping me from suck starting my 9mm is my little boy and the fact that my boats are so old depriciation is a non factor. Hust kidding about the 9mm..... ok ... you dont suck either.

 

[Presentation]

It's $335 to operate which divides down to only $20/hour to enjoy.

Quck math
Depreciation $1500
Ins 200
Gas 500
Dock 150
Fix 300
Paint 100
Quick Total 2750/month

75 hours per year, gives $440 per hour to operate. I don't think I allowed that much depreciation when I did the math. Maintenance isn't that much either.

John,

Thank you for showing your math.

At first I was like, man, I think someone put something funny in John’s oxygen tank on his last flight, depreciation is way more than $1,500 per year. Wow, he gets a great rate on insurance, must be a military benefit, ditto with the low slip fee. Not much spent on gas for the year, hmm, John’s a dock queen. Wow, low maintenance, he must do it all himself and get to use friends tooling for free and such.

Then at the end I read ‘month’ and thought, yup now it all makes sense.

Just thought you would get a kick out of my thought process.

 

[Hampton]

Don't look at 335/hour, look at $20/hour - that's nothing! Put the gun down. Go play with your son. All will be better tomorrow : )

Regarding your thought presentation, Presentation, that is funny. Oh, per month, yeah, that's about right. In a couple of years, that'll be per week.

 

[Hampton]

John,

Wow, he gets a great rate on insurance, must be a military benefit, ditto with the low slip fee.

By the way, low $2,000's/year is a great rate for Florida. It's Progressive with low deductibles and all of the required coverages - salvage... When I first signed up, I had 3 hits on my rate - 1 speeding ticket which was removed because I took the class. 1 hit on my credit rating because I didn't have credit before age 20 - I told them about my dorm room phone agreement and they took that fee away. I had 1 hit on my credit because of a late payment. I cleared that up with Chase and they took that hit away.

I am in the top bracket of 18 different brackets with Progressive. Each one of those lowered my insurance $275/year. Bother to clean up your past (and act). Then, check out their rates.

 

[Presentation]

By the way, low $2,000's/year is a great rate for Florida. It's Progressive with low deductibles and all of the required coverages - salvage... When I first signed up, I had 3 hits on my rate - 1 speeding ticket which was removed because I took the class. 1 hit on my credit rating because I didn't have credit before age 20 - I told them about my dorm room phone agreement and they took that fee away. I had 1 hit on my credit because of a late payment. I cleared that up with Chase and they took that hit away.

I am in the top bracket of 18 different brackets with Progressive. Each one of those lowered my insurance $275/year. Bother to clean up your past (and act). Then, check out their rates.

Regarding boat insurance I have bad news and good news.

The bad news is my rate is $489. The good news is that’s for a year!!!

'actual cash value' $500 deductible, 300K liability, $2,000 med, $10K addl aggregate equipment, $5K addl equipment

I do also carry a umbrella policy to up the liability coverage.