? for the pilots here...

T

tobnpr

New Member
Nov 12, 2006
3,246
New Port Richey, Florida
Boat Info
1988 300 DA
Engines
tw 350's w/ Alphas
I think we've discussed some aspects of this before; I'm trying to decide whether to move forward with learning to fly.

Part one: Economics. Trying to make a rough determination of what this hobby costs...Boats I know, planes NADA. If I do it, I'm going to do it fairly frequently; as pilots I've spoken with say it's important to use/practice the skills frequently.

Part 1 (B): Own the aircraft... hey I know they easily run well into seven figures, but can a 4-seater (USED, of course) be had for under 200K? What would be a reasonable figure to expect to spend on annual maintenance, and required inspections?

Part 1 (C): Rent the aircraft... how much for a day of joyriding- say a daytrip from Tampa to Key West for a cold one at Sloppy Joes...

Part Two: Learning to fly. How much of this can be done, at home, via simulators? I've heard some sophisticated systems (hardware and software) are available for purchase to plug into the big screen at home. Santa may spring for this... is it a viable idea? Any suggestions on a system to look at? Cost?

Sorry about the lengthy post, just trying to get a handle on this...there's an airport community nearby and every time I drive by I can't help but notice how cool it would be to have a plane (or two) in your driveway...

Any sage advice is appreciated.
 
I got my license years ago. Not sure what the cost now days would be but I'm thinking it was around 10K back then. (Flight school, Rental, instructor, etc, etc)
IMHO if you find a nice GA 4 seater under 200K you are going to have to spend a lot in maintenance real quick. May want to look into a club membership. Have you thought about sport planes. If you want to just get up and cut circles in the sky may be a thought.
 
Under $100,000 for a 4 is not a problem, but it will not be state of the art. $30,000 for an engine I think, every 7 - 10 years or so, depending on use.

My friends had a beautiful Navion (1950), IFR (rate for weather), Paid $95,000, 4 people, about 10 - 12 gallons per hour at 160mph. I think they paid themselves about $60/hour of use. The money built up for Maintenance. However, if it flies, floats, or fornicates, rent it.
 
I've been around General Aviation (GA) since I was a baby, so I'll take a stab at your questions:

>>I'm trying to decide whether to move forward with learning to fly.

For starters, go out to a local flight school and get your "demo" flight in. Rather than just do a 1/2 hour demo flight, ask them for an extra 30 minutes of "ground school" to go over the parts of the airplane and how to conduct a the preflight. You'll pay more, but will get more out of it.

>>Trying to make a rough determination of what this hobby costs...

Yes, you have to keep at it or the rust settles in quickly. If you own a basic 4-place aircraft that you purchased used for $50K, plan $1000 insurance annually, hangar rent ($250 and up per month), annual inspection ($1000 and up), plus variable costs. 10 gph x $4.50/gal is $45/hour plus $10/hr. toward your maintenance reserves. If you rent, you'll be at $100+/hour. Either way, plan another $25/hr+ for a good instructor. You'll need 40 hours to get your private, plan 50 or more, half of which at least you'll be with an instructor.

>>Own...can a 4-seater (USED, of course) be had for under 200K?

I helped a friend sell his mint 1968 Piper Cherokee 4 years ago for $70K. He just bought it back for $38K. What's that tell you about the market?

>>Rent...how much for a day of joyriding-

(see above) The $100 hamburger now seems to cost a minimum $200.


>>Learning to fly. How much of this can be done, at home, via simulators?

Check out "X-Plane", as it has the best motion simulation of all the sims. $200+/- for controls w/ rudder pedals. Wife got me some for Christmas one year and they are fantastic. No, can't count this time, but it's very realistic. I actually fire up the King Air 200 every now and then and shoot some approaches to minimums (in the clouds) just to keep my scan up. It's amazingly real except for the motion. The only problem at your level is that you could teach yourself and practice bad habits. Get some real training first. Part B: 20 years ago, I attended a school that had mechanical desktop simulators--used it and logged the time toward my instrument rating. They have to be FAA approved. It was fun sitting in a room full of "students" all trying the same approach. Every now and then one of the newbies would spin out of control. Don't fly with that guy :)

Hope this all helps. Also, grab a copy of Flying magazine or AOPA Pilot to get started on what's out there. It's like boating in that it's highly addictive and you'll do what you can to afford it. If you decide to take lessons, have the $$ lined up first. Too many people run out in the middle and don't finish.

Lastly, I think everybody should try it. Don't wait--go out this weekend and get your demo flight in!

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to call for more info.
 
I learned to fly while in college in Iowa. While I did a lot of flying in thoses days my wife never really enjoyed it because the rough air in the summer made her air sick. So I ended up flying a lot by myself and feeling guilty about spending the money. You also learn quickly that you need an instrument rating to turn a small plane into a viable option for regional travel due to IFR conditions which can not be avoided if you plan to travel. Again, more money. Following Iowa we moved to Chicago and it got very expensive to rent airplanes. The flying time to maintain competency was not in our young family budget. We moved to Michigan and I seriously considered a Super Cub float plane that I could keep at our dock. Since this would have clearly been a day tripper, I wasn't too concerned about a few hours of flying without my family (at least my wife. Turns out the kids like to fly). The boats ended up being a compromise. Had we bought the airplane instead of all the boats we've owned it would have been cheaper in the long run. Depreciation is much worse on boats and the maintenance on an expensive boat is on par with ( or less than) a cheap airplane. Whenever I fly somewhere with a friend in a small Cessna or even a nice Beech, I'm impressed by how little is spent on fuel. Obviously, this is the visible but cheapest part of the equation. It really gets down to where and how often you will fly and if it's something you and others will enjoy it. You have to fly several hours per month to keep up.
 
I would say that Kameroo’s breakdown was spot on…. I have been flying for 16 years and one of (if not most) rewarding things I have done. I had a Beechcraft (B24R) for a few years with a friend, it is in a lot of ways less expensive then maintaining a 30 something foot boat. If I recall, our annuals were about $2400 (assuming they didn’t find anything major), and this was a “Complex” plane (retractable gear, 3 blade adjustable pitch prop, and fuel injection). Your basic Lycoming motors are good for 2000 hrs (TBO). Avionic upgrades are what get’s expensive when owning a plane. I have been renting a Cessna 172RG as of lately at $150hr wet (with fuel), at the FBO that I fly out of they are getting $65hr for primary instruction. If you have $50 grand to through into a plane, you can definitely get a 4 place airplane today to just get through your primary and maybe some advanced training and then sell it in a couple years for what you paid and save yourself thousands in rentals. I am looking for something now to do some (winter) flying, maybe a Piper Arrow or Mooney M20, or a good deal on an older Beech Baron.
If you have some extra cash it is well worth the investment!
 
My Dad and I used to rent a Cessna 150 Aerobat (acrobatic, somewhat) for $11/hour wet in the mid-70's. I learned how to fly for $14/hour wet, plus $6/hour for an ex-Vietnam F-4 instructor pilot. I washed dishes for this when I was 15 and 16 years old. My private license cost me $850. I could have bought that Cessna 150 for $5,000 in 1977.
 
I think the answers that you have received are spot on. I am a current pilot with a 4 seat Piper Archer ( 1982 ). You could buy this plane today for $30K. Then add great avionics for an additional $20-$30k. I live in the North East so IFR is a must. I would recommend a flying Club, as it is less expensive upfront and you pay a fixed fee every month for constants (hangar, insurance...) and you pay a "wet fee" for the hrs you fly.

get to know someone at the airport and go flying with them a few times. You can split costs legally. You need to experience low level turbulence and wind. These make people go from potential pilots to 'no-go' real fast.

I just happen to have the Archer 2 miles ( including runway length of 5000ft ) from our boat. We use airplane for trips when driving would be 4 hrs or more and I can do in 1 hr. But listen to the others about time in aircraft. You need to fly to stay proficient.

NO HOME SIM during training. You need to learn to fly without instruments and "feel" the plane. Cover up the gauges and listen to engine changes, sliding in your seat, and sight picture outside the window. This will make you a great pilot and teach you a tremendous amount.

best of luck. BTW I love flying as much as boating. If you have any questions you can email me.
 
The way I see it, the best options are
A) Join the military. Everything is FREE!:smt021
However, I get the impression that is not an option.
B) Join a local flying club then decide if the hoby is something you want to stick with. You buy into the club for $1- $2000. Not only will the rental rate be considerably cheaper, but many clubs will allow you to take the plane overnight with a little coordination. By way of comparison, if you rent a plane they won't normally let you take it overnight unless you guarantee they a minimum amount of hobbs time. Example I fly 1 hour to MArthas vineyard island. Spend the night there. then fly 1 hour home. Then a rental might charge you 5 hours of flight time as opposed to a club that will charge you 2.
No humble opinion here. THEMS there is the facts in most cases.
Phil
 
Thanks for all the info. guys. With the exception of Arizona, the opinion seems to be that owning and maintaining a small aircraft shouldn't be any more expensive than a large boat.

I agree that it makes sense to just get out and try it before moving forward. I had a business assoc. with a small plane and flew a few times with him. While I don't get seasick on the boat- ever- I recall my first flight during the summer with him that was miserable. Got in the cockpit and I'm looking for the air conditioning..."isn't any"... it was like being in a frying pan while we were waiting on the runway. Aloft it was still hot as he**, and there was our usual stiff afternoon seabreeze blowing around 15 knots. Didn't blow chunks, but it was like being in a high-speed elevator getting jerked up and down. Barf... Made for a white knuckle landing as well ( at least mine were).

Stupid question # 1- is there usually air conditioning on the smaller planes? This (comfort) would be a big deal for the rest of the clan.

I had no idea that smaller aircraft could be as inexpensive as you're saying. Are the differences between older aircraft and newer mostly electronics systems (which can be upgraded as you've stated), or are there other considerations?

I agree that a club would be the way to go initially before considering purchase. But, is there something to be said for having "your own" aircraft and being intimately familiar with it, or is it no problem hopping into an unfamilar plane and flying into the wild blue yonder?

Thanks for all the insight.
 
Take the Discovery flight as was said before. They usually offer them at about 60 bucks. This will soon tell you if it's for you or not.
With our heat in florida you get a lot of thermals ( heat making the air rise) which makes for an interesting ride in a small plane. Some people it doesnt bother others it scares the hell out of.

Jack
 
I have flown over 45 years, Piper Cub through Beech Baron. I flew my Baron over 1600 hours. The one thing I would say to you is if you are going fly you need to fly on a regular basis. Fly every month. After you get your license you should fly trips with experienced pilots to futher learn the system and to learn how to "read weather" from the cockpit. Owning and operating an airplane is expensive, the fuel can be the least expensive cost. Good luck.
 
I have 7000 plus hours flying aircraft and have never flown my own. If you rent from an FBO they will maintain the plane to FAA standards. I find people in the flying clubs to be very professional also and do the same. There is always a matter of trust. Even when you hop on an airline. How do you know that the mechanic you just paid to perform your annual did a proffesional job. A matter of trust and recomendations from other people. No! I have never been concerned about any aircraft I climbed into. But I have climbed out of some pretty shot up ones I would never get right back into!:smt001
 
I stand corrected. Boy has the price on smaller GA planes gone down since the late 90s. As the others have said go get your intro flight plus some extra time. Heck get the ground school. Not only will it be a plus for flying, but will helps some with boating (Like chart plotting, route planning, etc..)

"to invent an airplane is nothing,
To build one is something,

To Fly is

EVERYTHING"

-- Otto Lilienthal --

Let me know if you are interested in a nice Avid Hauler with floats and a trailer.
 
Riptide III said:
The way I see it, the best options are
A) Join the military. Everything is FREE!:smt021

If you live.

If you keep your family.

If you would not have been a corporate exec, doctor, or lawyer otherwise.

If you keep your limbs.

If you keep your sanity.

If you don't mind living in squalor in exchange for free flight lessons.

What did I miss?

EDIT: Oh yeah - you won't keep all of your friends (except in your heart and your memories).
Click to expand...
 
One other point may be worth mentioning..........airplane design and saftey. Some airplanes are pretty forgiving when you do something stupid as a low hour pilot. Believe it or not one common cause of accidents is failure to maintain flying speed. The early Cherokees were pretty forgiving in this regard and also had very good manners during power on and power off stalls. Cessna 150s, same thing. I looked at a Super Cub, read up on the accident statistics and was surprised to see that it was a little harder to fly than one would expect. The accident record was not that great. This is a training issue and not the airplane's fault. I used to spend a few hours as a passenger in a Beechcraft Bonanza in the 60's and early 70's. They are great airplanes and many were sold to doctors and lawyers some of whom were too busy to stay proficient. Rather than fly them too slowly, some were flown under IFR conditions and at airframe speed limits that were excessive. Because of the low drag design and pilot disorientation, catastrophic failures sometimes occured.
 
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