Crash valves or intake diverter valves on the seacocks

[Alex F]

After having a discussion in Collision at Sea thread we can see how important to have the crash valves or intake diverter valves on the seacocks installed. I haven’t seen anything like that offered by Sea Ray. So, I was wandering if anyone had fabricated something simple and efficient that can share.

I was also thinking that since majority of recreational boats don’t have the crash valves, what could be a quick workaround for situations when a boat is taking on water in faster rate than both pumps can handle? I could think of two possible options:

• Since it would most likely take a while to disconnect intake hose from the seacock (whether it’s from an engines or generator) cutting the hose with a sharp knife or a hacksaw could work much faster. Then, you can direct the hose to the bottom of the bilge and run the engine or generator or both (whatever you choose to work as a alternative) to help pumping the water out. Obviously, before attempting this you must CLOSE THE SEACOCK to which the hose you’re about to cut is connected.
• In addition I think that boats that are equipped with flushing system have another option that could avoid cutting the intake hoses. I will do this test next season on my boat, but I’m almost positive that connecting a hose to a flushing connector while having the other end of the hose go to the bottom of the bilge, closing the seacock and running the engine should pump the water out at much better rate than bilge pumps. Adding RPMs just a little should also accelerate the pumping process.
• Another option I just thought of is to carry pretty powerful (similar to house sewer pumps) 120v AC water pump as part of your gear. So, by starting your generator the pump can be plugged in to AC outlet. For boats without generators a most powerful 12v DC spare water pump could be an alternative. But, I would think that there’s a big difference between the amount of water 12v pump can deliver vs. 120v pumps.

Since I have fabricated flushing system on my boat I think that I have pretty good chance on using option #2 and run even all 3 engines (both mains and genny). As you can see in the image below all I would do is to use the hose that goes to city water and run it all the way in the bilge. Then, after closing all 3 seacocks and opening 3 valve in the stern locker I could startup all 3 engines. The only limitation I see here is the size of the hose (5/8"), but I would still think that it's a pretty good option vs. not having it.

Please share your ideas so we can add to the list of options on how to get the water out of the bilge in case of an emergency when manual bilge pump is out of the question.

 

[Four Suns]

I have these mounted on the main engine seacocks:

http://groco.net/00-scks-valves/sscv.htm

and

http://groco.net/00-scks-valves/sscv-installs.htm

Here's some pictures of my lovely hands holding them:

and

You can also use them for a flush:

 

[LTD.330]

Alex, you should probably look at using reinforced hose or possibly pipe as my guess is your water pump may collapse the garden hose when it starts sucking hard.

 

[Alex F]

The picture of the setup is old. I took it just after most of the work was done. Those green garden hoses were replaced long time ago. However, they had still performed fine for some time. I replaced them only b/c it didn't look and feel right, but not b/c they didn't perform.


Gary,
Do you by any chance have a picture of how these Ts are installed? I assume that the garden hose connector has plug on it and you just unscrew the plug and connect the hose or do you actually have both caps and replace the cap with the hose connector only when you need it?

 

[Henry Boyd]

Alex,

Some points to think about:

1. If utilized the raw water pumps will be sucking up water from a bilge with hull damage debris in it. Smoke the impellers, overheat the engines, and Mercruiser Guardian will shut down the engines (ironically to save them from damage).

2. Note the size of the hardware Gary is holding. Note your hardware. Diesels have significantly bigger raw water systems, and that is why many commercial fishing boats are equipped with these kinds of pumps. Test your system, fill up a five gallon bucket of water and see how long it takes your engines to drain it, you may not be impressed.

3. In a hull damage/ sinking boat emergency, do you really want the main egress route blocked by an open engine hatch?

4. Who is going to get down in the engine compartment, close the seacocks, make sure the hoses are clear, AND make sure the family is not panicking, getting on their PFDs, AND get out a mayday to someone who can help?

5. On the Sundancer, the front 2/3 - 1/2 of the hull is sealed off from the engine compartment. How will an engine powered crash pump help with a log through the bow?

I know this sounds negative, but I'm not sure the pumps from a gas engine, or engines, will make a big enough difference to justify the distraction of getting them on line.

Henry

 

[Four Suns]

I thought I had a picture of my generator install which is a 1" hose. I can't find it...

You do have to look at the performance of your water pump/impeller to know if it will make a hill of beans difference. My main pumps are 1800 series and shown by the red dot:

The 1" pump is the 10077 pump and it's not going to suck much water out.

 

[gerryb]

I have a semi-permanent 12v pump mounted in the bilge which I use to clear-out any water that is in the bildge, eg after washing out the floor or if water gets in there after rain. The unit is not expensive and can pump out very quickly (240GPH claimed). I think this would be a better alternative than tapping into the engine cooling system.

This is the unit I have with poly hoses installed on both end that I keep wrapped up until needed.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9576

 

[Henry Boyd]

Gary,

Am I ready your chart correctly? At 2000 RPM each engine is moving about 7500 gallons per hour? Is this actually achieved, or is it reduced by movement though the engine?

Henry

 

[Four Suns]

Gary,

Am I ready your chart correctly? At 2000 RPM each engine is moving about 7500 gallons per hour? Is this actually achieved, or is it reduced by movement though the engine?

Henry

The 1800 series water pumps are on a gear box (no belt) on the engine and I don't really know what RPM the actual water pump is spinning at. I do know that I learned last year when I got a leak in Nantucket that the hoses coming off the engine get pressurized way beyond what I had anticipated. Those pumps would feed a fire house with no problem. It was an eye opener to me... made me realize the pressures the aftercooler and heat exchangers must see... I'm guessing those pumps would suck a lot of water from the bilge as long as it was strained. The exhausts are around 8-10 inches and just below the water line so I can't really see the amount of water they push out... (OK... time for w!ngless to post here)

 

[Alex F]

Henry,

You bring up very good points and by all means I don’t take them negatively. Let me start my response by referring to the link Collision at Sea from the top of the thread. As I recall, the major points in the story were:

- The boat was damaged in the engine room.
- The family was extremely lucky to have CG near by who responded immediately.
The CG saved the boat by dropping additional water pumps, b/c bilge pumps couldn’t keep up with the incoming water. In addition, they were able to somewhat block the source of incoming water by using tools and parts boat owner had on board.

1. If utilized the raw water pumps will be sucking up water from a bilge with hull damage debris in it. Smoke the impellers, overheat the engines, and Mercruiser Guardian will shut down the engines (ironically to save them from damage).

I think this can be fixed by having something similar to scoop strainer at the end of the water hose. As to not overheating the engine it'll be up to the captain to determine how many engines need to operated to get that water out. With twins I would have one engine and genny running leaving one engine to be used to have the boat mobile in the event if something happens to the other engine that was used to help controlling water level.

2. Note the size of the hardware Gary is holding. Note your hardware. Diesels have significantly bigger raw water systems, and that is why many commercial fishing boats are equipped with these kinds of pumps. Test your system, fill up a five gallon bucket of water and see how long it takes your engines to drain it, you may not be impressed.

No question that having the size of plumbing like Gary's boat has will deliver very different performance vs. 5/8" hose. However, we shouldn't under estimate the posible help that 5/8" hose can provide. A good example is when I winterize my rig I have a bucket that holds about 10-13 gallons of antifreeze. When I drop that hose in my open sea strainer the single engine sucks 6-8 gallons of pink in seconds (I never timed it, but if I recall it's like 10+/- seconds). So, no matter how low this rate might sound I think it's very good helper if your bilge pumps can't keep up. Now, if I have also genny running and/or another engine, then my pumping rate will get much better.

3. In a hull damage/ sinking boat emergency, do you really want the main egress route blocked by an open engine hatch?

4. Who is going to get down in the engine compartment, close the seacocks, make sure the hoses are clear, AND make sure the family is not panicking, getting on their PFDs, AND get out a mayday to someone who can help?

PFDs and MAYDAY call are the immidiate and #1 things to do. That should take no more than 1-2-3 min. Then, it's up to the captain to assess the damage and determine survival chances. For those that don't have life raft or a dinghy on the swiming platform, their damaged boat is the only floating object that keeps everyone safe. So, if there's a chance by keeping it floating, even though damaged, I would take every attempt to do so.

5. On the Sundancer, the front 2/3 - 1/2 of the hull is sealed off from the engine compartment. How will an engine powered crash pump help with a log through the bow?

Actually, the process I described in option #2 could be your major saver. All is required to run the hose to the cabin where damage is and have your engines/genny help to pump the water out. Ofcourse, it would be ideal if a powerful like 120v AC sump pump is available, then running genny to produce AC power will be the solution.

 

[Alex F]

Sadly, were my boat holed, I would be so paralyzed with grief that I would be unable to save it. :smt089(After making sure the family was safe)

Scott,
As I mentioned above, in situations where a boat does not have life raft or dinghy infalted on the swiming platform, which could be deployed in couple of minutes I don't think we can call it a "safe stage" for the crew. Keeping the damaged boat boat afloat could be the biggest life saver. So, my intention with this thread to discuss and learn as much as possible the tricks and necessary possible methods to keep my boat floating in case of emergency. Having the knowledge and necessary tools will help a captain to maintain control and hopefully not freak out during the crunch time.

 

[Woody]

If I was going to improve my boat in this area I would install a second high volume system that automatically comes online if the rest lose ground. Separate discharge, electrical circuit and alarms,….no wasted time. The ER in my boat would be fairly easy but the cabin wouldn‘t. If a guy wanted to prepare for this scenario how much do you prepare for…..10-20-50,000gph? I think I have about 2,000gph in the ER and whatever the shower sump is. The cabin would be pretty wet before that one would be any help. Good topic, I think the first money I’ll spend is for a life raft.

Here’s an article on why boats sink, I was surprised they said more boats sank by coming off large waves than by hitting debris. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/sinking/default.asp

 

[osd9]

I have a pair of home made crash valves on both of my mains.

If I were to hit a log or some other large obstruction while at sea, my first line of action would be to quickly throtle down and access the situation. Possibly send out a Mayday (hit the DSC button, admiral is well trained on that function), and if the situation were to warrant, get the ditch bag in the dink and prepare to go for a dinghy ride.

If I didn't hit anything, and all of a sudden I see the high water bilge alarm go off, I would immediately throtle down, lift the hatch and see what gives in the ER. If I see one motor spewing water out from a potential broken hose or the such, I'd shut that motor down and get down there right quickly and close that motor's seacock. I would then assess the situation and decide what to do from there...either send out the mayday and/or start the dewatering process through the other motors crash valve, or a combination of both or whatever the situation called for.

I mostly use my crash valves as a means to flush and winterize the mains. I have a bucket setup that feeds the valves through a 1 1/2 hose.

Those CATs, with the 17000 series pumps, suck down ~9 gallons of AF in less then 10 seconds...that's a lot of fluid in a short period of time.

Now, If I were in the Barnegat Bay, I'd simply wait for the boat to fill up with water and lay on the bay's bottom. Then I'd open the transom door and walk to shore.

 

[rcknecht]

Thanks Alex... You made me think... I installed fresh water washed down connections on on my intake lines before my raw water filters... In an emergency I could open the vavle and close the raw water inlet valve and use the starboard engine a pump... I had to install that connection low due to clearance, so it can double to pump a flooded engine compartment... The problem will be to get to it in time...

 

[wkearney99]

This is the unit I have with poly hoses installed on both end that I keep wrapped up until needed.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9576

Those pumps are crap. I've had three of them burn out. Two within just a few minutes of operation. Another after running about 10 minutes. All when pumping clear water (no debris). If you get one be sure to get the warranty. And then prepare yourself for a half-hour phone call to get it honored.

 

[Alex F]

Dominic,

Thanks for posting pictures of your setup. I remember seen them while back. This looks like very nice and effecient way to do it. I had copied your idea on using the container with valve and hose attached. The only thing I have different is that I'm using regular garden hose while winterizing the mains. Despite having only 5/8" hose compare to your 1 1/2" it still works like a charm and I had not felt the need to replace it with a bigger hose. As I mentioned, the main would suck 6-8 gallons in about 10 seconds or so. So, for argument sake if your setup takes 10 seconds mine could be 12-15 seconds, no more than that. But, it's still very acceptable.

By all means I'm not trying to sell the idea of using the garden hose, but my point is that if people dodn't do anything like crahs valve setup I think that those that have flush kits can use the garden hose and still get a lot of help from the mains pumping the water our through that 5/8" garden hose.

BTW, after goign throught this thread and the one I was referring to earlier people may think what are the chances to collide with a whale? I agree, but hitting a log is much higher chance and I don't see a huge difference between hitting a whale or a large size log, which can make a hole in the hull much faster due to sharp edges or something like branches sticking out. This though is aways in my mind when I think about Hudson river or anywhere in that area. Actually, when I was delivering my friend's boat from Hungtingto LI last season we came only few feet away from hitting half of the floating telephone pole. That's when I said good think that his boat doesn't go faster than 8pmh. Imagine hitting this thing at cruising speed with your Sea Ray?

 

[osd9]

Kudos to you for having the proper sized bung within easy reach of the through hull for your sea cock...well done.

Thanks....although I have installed them on my previous cruisers, this particular set was already there when I bought the boat, so these Kudos should go to Sea Gull.....the original owner....I'll take a portion of the Kudos though for my previous installs....:grin:

Those CATs, with the 17000 series pumps, suck down ~9 gallons of AF in less then 10 seconds...that's a lot of fluid in a short period of time.

BTW....I meant to say above....'And that's only at idle speed....650 RPM.....figure 3.5 times that at cruise....X 2 for two motors....doing the math....that would be over ~70 gallons in JUST 10 SECONDS.... or ~400 gallons in a minute........WOW!" Although, from Gary's chart above, I't doesn' show exact lineararity,but it's darn close!

 

[hack4alivin]

I like the idea from Gary’s post (in case it was missed) that the way his is set up it serves double duty. For me setting up something similar to be used as a flush and winterize gives added value.

 

[Four Suns]

You all need to remember Bernoulli's law here... a 2" hole about 2' below the water line (like losing a 1" shaft in a small boat) is going to dump just under 7000 gallons per hour in your boat... putting something in that can do 200 gph is like pissing up a rope.

 

[rcknecht]

You all need to remember Bernoulli's law here... a 2" hole about 2' below the water line (like losing a 1" shaft in a small boat) is going to dump just under 7000 gallons per hour in your boat... putting something in that can do 200 gph is like pissing up a rope.

Nice to see you back... Hopefully I will get to meet you a the CSR AC Trip this summer....