Comments on 2000 460DA

aquadancer,
Do you know what trannies are mated to the Cats? I have ZF 280 Series IVs in my 420, and have some insights as regards maintenance on these units.

I believe you can learn a lot about the overall maintenance of a boat by crawling around in the engine spaces. I do not say this to brag in any way, but you could have supper off of the deck in my engine room. I keep it that way so I will see at a glance if I have any fluid leaks. I also cleaned out all the construction debris from Merritt Island in the nooks and crannies of my engine room so that there are no obstructions in my bilge pump impellers when and if I really need them to pump. Corrosion, dirty water lines at the lowest point of the bilge, rubber dust buildup around the belts on the diesels, all point to shoddy maintenance or benign neglect. Another tell tale IMO is the condition of the racors and the racor elements. Buildup of water in the racors and filthy filter elements says a lot about the health of the fuel system.

regards,
Skip
 
Thanks for all the advice. I am on my way to see the vessel today.

Skip, sounds like we have very similar philosophy on boat maintenance.

My concern is that this appears to be a pretty unusual engine choice in thi boat. Of 53 listed 2000 and 2001 460DAs listed on Yachtworld, only 2 have these engines and both are in Europe.

Why so unpopular and can it have adverse effect on future resale?
 
The reason the 3208 is so rare in 460DA's has to do with the big picture decisions and nothing to do with it being an unpopular engine.

About the time that this boat was made, Caterpillar was dealing with some pretty serious vendor quality problems that affected the 3126, which was the engine Sea Ray had chosen for the 450/460. Sea Ray was building boats and they needed engines, so they used some 3208's while Caterpillar sorted out the 3126 issues.

For reading on the 3126 problems, either search this site or PM me your email address and I'll send you a detailed description that I have archived.

There isn't anything wrong with the 3208....they are typical Cat quality and torque. There are tons of them out there in trucks and boats. However, that particular engine design was one that Caterpillar could not get to pass the next level of EPA emission requirements. They developed a 6 cylinders family of engines...3116,3126,3196.... that are very clean burning and that will meet EPA limits. The emissions I'm describing are not smoke on cold start up and heavy soot. A well maintained 3208 Cat is as clean on start up as any mechanical diesel.

So, the emissions thing and the fact that the 3208 does not have replaceable engine sleeves.......all that means is that to rebuild a 3208, you have to remove the engine and strip the block so it can be re-bored, whereas, one with replaceable sleeves can be rebuilt "in frame" and there is no need to strip the block or remove it from the boat/truck......caused Caterpillar to make the decision to stop making the 3208 in favor of 3126 engines which produce about the same power in a rebuild able engine that does meet EPA limits. The emissions thing is also the reason you see more 3208's in European markets than here....they don't have EPA.

So the reason you don't see many in boats made after 2000 is because Cat stopped making them and there are none. Cat still services parts on the predecessor engine that the 3208 replaced in the 60's (I think?), so I'm not too worried about parts availability.

Resale ability of a boat with a rare engine configuration may be another issue, however.

Hope that helps................
 
UPDATE (sorry, long post and some rambling)

I spent several hours today looking over this boat and walked away somewhat conflicted. We did not run the boat, but I looked through it at my own pace and ran the motors for a few minutes. She’s a very clean vessel with all the sings of diligent maintenance. Additionally, the boat is equipped much better than I expected. My BIG hang up is still the CAT 3208 engine package. Frank W, your response helped put most of my concerns to rest, but impact on resale value is an issue. I just don’t want to buy a “white elephantâ€, at least not unless I get it at a great price.

Here’s are the highlights:

770 hrs on the CAT 3208 mains (s/n plate says 450hp, dealer says 437hp); 760 hrs on Westerbeke 8.5kW genny
full engine service records by H.O. Penn (CAT dealer)
full service and maintenance records by Surfside 3 (sold by them new)
spotless bilge; no sign of any fluid leaks (some pink stuff by the pumps from winterizing); clean Racor bowls
dealer claims bottom is solid glass. Balsa coring starts about 2’ above waterline. He claims all through hulls are installed in solid class (can anyone confirm?).
good shine on gelcoat; no visible scratches or spider cracks; no signs of soot around the exhaust
no sign of wetness down below or in any lockers, bilge behind the mid cabin berth clean and dry
engines started on the first crank; puffed white, translucent smoke for about 45 sec – seemed like allot at first but smoke pretty much disappeared after about a minute (normal?)
engines settled into steady and pretty quite idle, exhaust water flow appeared very strong compared to my current boat.
Odd thing – oil pressure gauges looked maxed out at 100 (?) at idle – concerns?

Options and upgrade highlights:

Electronics: Furuno B&W open array radar; Northstar 962 color plotter; Simrad Robertson autopilot; Icom VHF; Raymarine tri-data – this is a pretty odd package, seems more like mid to late 80’s than 2000 vintage, but these are high quality components.
Bowthruster – Vetus, but don’t know what power. However, it is fed by two G31 deep cycle batteries and a separate 30 amp chargers. Wires are huge! I guess this is nice to have.
Macerator
Genny sound box (but very east to take off)
KVH sat TV and 3 brand new hi def LCD TVs, all with progressive scan DVD – my kids would love this. KVH dome neatly installed with a second blank dome flanking the radar (second dome has the gps antenna inside) – looks cool
Vitricor cherry interior; cockpit fridge (I like it better than icemaker, and it is NOT a “Nevercoldâ€!)
Nice, recessed sunpad on the foredeck
Canvas and glass looks to be in very good condition with no scratches, hazing, busted seams, or busted zippers. Canvas is definitely newer than 2000. There is a nicely done extended aft bimini (look like Frank W’s boat!) which shades the cockpit almost like a camper top but follows the boat lines better
Weaver davits already installed ( with very beefy backing plates) – plus in my book

Issues and concerns:

Odd engines and odd electronics – all apparently good stuff, but not typical and may affect future value
High hours? (comments?) / all saltwater boat since new
Tight access to outboard side on the mains (lift ladder, crawl over the holding tanks, reach behind) – is this a function of the V8’s ?
No access to backside of the genny as it sits pretty much against the transom – but filters and impeller appear to be on the front side and easily accessible (are there any service points on the back)
Cockpit vinyl shows some wear, no cracks but some fading and dirt – maybe it just needs a good cleaning
Listed at $310K, dealer claims he has $275K in the boat – this appears to be priced a little high considering hours and odd engines (comments?)

Questions and next steps:

What kind of performance (cruise / top end/ gph) can I expect from this combo. Is there a place where I can find this type of info and full engine specs? Dealer not helpful in this area, they actually thought the engine model was a typo in their spec sheet
How many hours to overhaul can be expected with proper maintenance
What would be expected oil consumption (I noticed 4 gallons of Rotella in the bilge – sign of oil consumption?)
Are these engines heavier that the typical straight 6; could this affect running angle, balance, etc
What king of maintenance would you do immediately to make sure you have reliable boat I can safely run from Long Island to upper Chesapeake (i.e. new impellers, just in case). What are on-going maintenance requirements and does someone have a maintenance checklist you could share (sorry, diesels are mystery to me)
Are diesel generators really as safe as reported; i.e. can I run the genny overnite on the hook with no fear of killing anyone (assuming no gas gennys in the vicinity) or can we swim behind the boat with the genny running (sorry, if this is obvious, I claim diesel ignorance)
How much should I expect to pay for CAT engine survey, fluid analysis (mains, genny, coolant, tranny fluid ?) Any other tests to be run?
Comments on price/value given all of the above? Initial number on my trade appear OK to me.
Did I miss anything?

My plan is to discuss the engines with H.O. Penn and Cat and talk with Searay re hull coring. Baring any negative info and if the seller can work with me some on the price, I think I will put a small deposit on it to survey and sea trial.

Finally, am I over thinking all this? I really like this boat, but this is a tough check to write.

If you got this far, thanks for reading and I truly appreciate all the help!
 
aquadancer.

Sounds like you had a fun day....and came back with some good questions.

I know that H.O.Penn is having a diesel seminar next week (March 7 and 8) in Long Island. Dancin' Dave is also going. You may want to head back out for the seminar. That would also give you another oppurtunity to look at the boat again.

The electronics all sound like great stuff. Not the sexy new stuff of today, but if they work, should offer good service for a few years until you decide to upgrade...at your convenience....As I learned, don't make the electronics your deciding factor....but use it for some leverage in your negotiations.

H.O. Penn will charge about $1000 for an engine survery which will include oil analysis and sea trial. With close to 800 hours, you may want to negotiate that the dealer anti-up for the 1000 hour service.....change all fluids, impellers, zincs, etc..

FrankW et all will be able to give much better advise on the engines....

Good luck and keep us posted....Oh...did you get any pics... :grin:
 
"Finally, am I over thinking all this? I really like this boat, but this is a tough check to write. "

You should over think this, it's a big step.

On purchases like this I always listen to my intuition, listen to my gut. Do all of your research, get answers to your questions and if it feels good move forward. If not, listen to that little voice and walk away.

There are a lot of boats out there for sale, and I mean a lot. Plus, as my wife always says, we have a nice boat and it fits us well, what's the rush to move up to a bigger boat?
 
If you don't mind me asking, what steered you off the 450EB and into a 460DA (assuming that was you asking about that on the other forum)?
 
AquaDancer, The boat sounds good to me. Survey's will show the warts. After looking at many, many 45 & 46 DA'S i can tell you the price in this market is a little high. I understand you want to trade but you will need or understand it is a buyers market right now SO NEGOTIATE HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!Iam closing monday on a 98 45DA and
i have a pretty good feel for this market. I repeat, NEGOTIATE VERY HARD! I got both a Hull survey and engine survey and it paid off big time. The hull survey found moisture in hull of a 40DA that i rejected. Prior two owners DIDNOT do both. Be firm in your neg and be willing to walk away. Like many have said there is a lot of boats out there right now and just the right deal with your name on it is there, you just have to find it. By the way, as i said before i really liked the 46. JC
 
I agree that it is a buyers market. However, the vast majority of big boat buyers, are also boat sellers. And many times, the boat they are selling isn't exactly small either.

The argument of trade vs sell is very similar to the buy new vs buy used argument. There are pros and cons to each.

When you trade, you have to keep in mind that the same soft market argument you are trying to sell to the dealer is a double sided sword.

All this just ads to the horse trading fun.....
 
Dominic, That is an excellant point. Everybodys needs and wants are different and there is no exact right or wrong. My big point to Aqua was and is NEG HARD because imho its a real buyers market and the boat co's need to move their inventory. By the way, i really like the 46DA, OH, Ive said that before. I do think when Aqua goes to trade or sell the "odd" engine config in the 46 might take some people back. Further reason to NEG HARD! It wouldnt affect me though as i also looked at a 46 with cats and that was not a big deal to me at all, but when we talked turkey i did bring that up. JC
 
Aquadancer... ss3 reads this board... Just be careful what u post as to NOT show ur hand...

Good luck

Rob
 
Thank you all for your advice so far. I have my next steps mapped out. I like the boat and am prepare to move forward if the deal is right. We're in no rush to do anything. Bigger boat is a "nice to have" not "must have" at this point.

Frank W - I will closely follow the advice you laid out for me. Thanks !

Dom - resizing some pics right now. Stay tuned.

Rob - great point on ss3 reading this and thanks for the PMs

JC - I hear you on the market conditions. I am acting accordingly.

Pete - I will research the layup on this particular boat and bring my glass guy to the survey. He does a lot of SR glass work around upper Bay for MM and others. He can smell moisture like a DEA dog can smell ..... you know

Ylwjacket - nothing against the EB. We looked at them initially because of the 3 stateroom configuration. We'll most likely stick with express for now. We have young kids (3 and 5 year old boys - pretty much born on boats) who for some strange reason like to be down below while we're underway. On an express, they can't get past the helm if they wander out, on a bridge boat... well potentially a different story

Thanks again - I'll update this next week.
 
Good pics - looks good. I like the midcabin tv install.

I understand the concern of the bridge boat with small kids. When we were on our 3 hour maiden voyage, it was jsut me and my 12 year old and 13 year old.

Every time I heard the door open downstairs, I was on pins and needles until I saw them poke their heads up on the stairs.

I am going to have to get one of those cameras that wires in to the E120 so I can keep an eye on the cockpit.
 
Raymarine has those MOB tags... ( not sure there name )

If the holder gets more then 30 ' from the reciver a signal goes off and a MOB waypoint comes up on the chart plotter...

( hope im not butchering this )

Go to rays website...

Think im going to get one for the fo-fo dog....

Rob
 
Aquadancer, I really like the look of that 46". The Domes look great.
JC :thumbsup:
 
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