ABYC & soldering question

[electricaldoctor]

Exactly, that’s why I highlighted it in red.

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”11.16.3.7.

I think that we are splittings hairs here. A butt splice is no less rigid that a soldered "Western Union" splice. Let's move on before "cabin fever" gets the better of us all. :smt021

 

[skibum]

Good discussion going on here.

Personally, I have always viewed using crimp connectors as a quick and dirty way to avoid getting out the soldering iron and making a real connection. I'm not bashing them, I just always thought of them as poor connections. and a way to take the "easy way out". At 4:50PM on a Friday, I'd grab the crimpers every time. Before 4:30, everything got the good soldered connections.

My father was an aircraft mechanic. I spent a good bit of time around busted aircraft in my younger years. Looking back, I recall lots of the things he fixed as being related to failed crimp connections. I can't remember any of the connections I've made using the "utility and equipment company splice" ever failing.

About making the wire stiff because of the solder wicking. If you use a pair of hemostats on the bare wire between the twisted part and where it enters the jacket on both sides of the splice, the solder will not go past them and into the jacket. The purposes of my original question was to consider a joint soldered in that manner. Assume that the only soldered part is the actual twisted up ball of wire in the splice. The wire on either side of the twisted part is still stranded as it always has been.

I can't believe that a crimp connection can compare mechanically, or electrically.

Ok, and maybe this is a moot point, but have any of you disassembled any of your electronics lately? Most of the components are held onto the circuit boards with a microdrop of glue and the tiniest bits of solder on each leg of the component. All of the places where the crimped on connectors attach to the circuitry are soldered. Many of the wire connections are probably soldered. At some point in time I've got accept the fact that my GPS is bouncing around as much as any of the soldered connections, why would the solder fail in one place and not the other? :huh:

And yeah, I have 2 connections like this on my boat. I did them before I ever knew it was (the jury's still out) taboo. I extended the ground wire on my GPS because SR had apparently cut it too short, and it was as tight as a guitar string. I thought that was bad, so I cut it and added about 8" of 14AWG black to the middle of it using 2 of those splices.

There are two kickers here. #1 is that I had to move 3 little ziploc baggies full of crimp connectors out of the way so that I could get to the shrink wrap, solder, rag, flux, and iron. (I wasn't gonna take shortcuts like that on MY boat). #2 is that I had considered using one splice, and one crimped on ring. The only reason that I didn't is because the factory ring on that wire was obviously pressed on using a machine, and again, I didn't way to end up with a less reliable cheap home crimped connection.

I can't win... :smt089

 

[Four Suns]

Wasn't there some clown on this board that argued how you needed a drip loop on everything and then proceeded to show us his great example with a 110v plug he stuck in his gas engine room and it said "Not GFI" with sharpie on the side?

I think the issue with crimps is that people get that crappy crimp kit from West Marine for 30 bucks and think it's great. Those things are crap. If you are going to do crimps, you need to do them right with a high quality crimp tool (like a ratchet one) with the die matched to the crimp you are using. People will buy a certain crimp and then use a tool designed for a different kind of crimp... If you use a quality tool with quality crimps, they are not going to vibrate off and cause sparks in the engine room. That's just silly. If you are going to terminate a wire onto a screw terminal, you need to have a connector on the end of the wire and a good crimp tool/crimp is very strong and consistent.

Sea Ray, unfortunately, did not do a stellar job with the crimp work on my boat. I've had to re-do a lot of the crimps as the wire would just fall out of the connector. I think they had some $2/hour Mexican working on my main panel at my helm.

I don't think anything in my engine room has solder on it as a "sole connection". I believe the ECM boards are encased in some sort of plastic/epoxy so the circuit boards/solder are not going to vibrate apart.

If you look at the reason boats catch on fire, the biggest reason is because of electrical and a large percentage is from the 12v side. Between properly supporting, using the right wire, connectors, and loom, most DYI projects can cause trouble down the road. For example, I see a lot of projects where people tie wrap a new wire run to an existing wire run or plumbing. That is against ABYC guidelines. You need to support the wires directly every 18" or so (I forget the distance off the top of my head).

The quality components is a huge issue. I learned that this year in some tie wrap work I did was with some tie wraps I bought from Lowes. After 2 years in the engine room, the heads of the tie wraps are breaking off and failing. I ended up getting some higher quality ones (Thomas and Betts) from newark.com and now have to go replace all of them. Not all tie wraps are created equally... but it's also an example of why ABYC requires wires to be supported directly and not tie wrapped to plumbing and existing wire for their primary support.

If you are going to do your own crimp work, get a real setup or hire someone that does it right. This is a nice kit:

http://www.specialized.net/Speciali...eat-Shrink-Terminal-Kit-StaPouchHS-2254.aspx#

You can complain about the cost but it'll allow you to do crimps properly on your boat.

 

[Converse48]

I bought that kit and it rocks. The only complaint is that the little heat gun is pretty weak. Especially if you're working in the winter. Other than that, that kit is top notch!

 

[skibum]

The wiring is the one thing on my boat that SR should be absolutely embarrassed to put their name on. :smt021

They used the same bunch of Mexicans on my boat, Gary. After their 3 margarita siesta. They did stupid stuff all over the place. The coax for the VHF fell apart when I looked at it. They cable tied the transducer cable every 10" or so, but did not leave enough slack on the transducer end to allow me to pull it out of the hole. I found an extra 10" or so in a loop at the far end, where it is not needed. I'll be fixing that in a couple of weeks. They left a bundle of wire 4' long under the step where the trash can and shower sump is. There were three 14 gauge (I think) wires in the bundle. Someone just wrapped them around their hand about 15 times and used 2 small wire ties attached to each other to hold it together. Then, they used 2 more small ones to make a loop around that mess to go through another loop in a tie with a screw head that was screwed to the bottom of the step. They were careful to make sure that the bundle was suspended in mid air instead of allowing it to lie in the bottom where the sump overflow water is. The wires are crimp connected to the sump harness. Why in the heck didn't they just lop off another 40" before stripping and crimping? :huh:

They could have attached it to the inside wall of the step with just 1 screw head tie and have been done with it. I guess some SR employee needed to stretch the wiring harness install on my boat for an extra hour or so on a Friday so he wouldn't end up starting on another boat.

Don't get me started about the "wiring installation" (and I use that term very loosely) in the cabinet behind the audio components. I found that this is the hole where all of the extra screws, brackets, and left over parts are tossed right before they deliver the boat. I found an official SR souvenir in there - a stubby phillips. That area is next on my list of things to correct.

I agree that the tool makes the difference. I use an Ideal Crimpmaster for RJ and Coaxial connections. It is a nice ratcheting crimper with interchangeable dies, but they don't have dies to do the crimp connections we are talking about. I may pick up that set. Thanks for the link.

Update: Looks like I can get the die set to do the insulated slide on connectors for my Crimpmaster after all. $35.

So, Gary. You never directly stated your opinion on the question. Your opinion on this matters to me. Regardless of which is a "better" or more common splice, is a "Utility co." splice, done properly, with heat sinks used to prevent wicking and good heat shrink "acceptable" by the standard or not? Does the mechanical connection provided by the splice meet the litmus test of making the mechanical connection provided by the solder "not the sole" means?

 

[Two Peas]

Wasn't there some clown on this board that argued how you needed a drip loop on everything and then proceeded to show us his great example with a 110v plug he stuck in his gas engine room and it said "Not GFI" with sharpie on the side?

I think the issue with crimps is that people get that crappy crimp kit from West Marine for 30 bucks and think it's great. Those things are crap. If you are going to do crimps, you need to do them right with a high quality crimp tool (like a ratchet one) with the die matched to the crimp you are using. People will buy a certain crimp and then use a tool designed for a different kind of crimp... If you use a quality tool with quality crimps, they are not going to vibrate off and cause sparks in the engine room. That's just silly. If you are going to terminate a wire onto a screw terminal, you need to have a connector on the end of the wire and a good crimp tool/crimp is very strong and consistent.

Sea Ray, unfortunately, did not do a stellar job with the crimp work on my boat. I've had to re-do a lot of the crimps as the wire would just fall out of the connector. I think they had some $2/hour Mexican working on my main panel at my helm.

I don't think anything in my engine room has solder on it as a "sole connection". I believe the ECM boards are encased in some sort of plastic/epoxy so the circuit boards/solder are not going to vibrate apart.

If you look at the reason boats catch on fire, the biggest reason is because of electrical and a large percentage is from the 12v side. Between properly supporting, using the right wire, connectors, and loom, most DYI projects can cause trouble down the road. For example, I see a lot of projects where people tie wrap a new wire run to an existing wire run or plumbing. That is against ABYC guidelines. You need to support the wires directly every 18" or so (I forget the distance off the top of my head).

The quality components is a huge issue. I learned that this year in some tie wrap work I did was with some tie wraps I bought from Lowes. After 2 years in the engine room, the heads of the tie wraps are breaking off and failing. I ended up getting some higher quality ones (Thomas and Betts) from newark.com and now have to go replace all of them. Not all tie wraps are created equally... but it's also an example of why ABYC requires wires to be supported directly and not tie wrapped to plumbing and existing wire for their primary support.

If you are going to do your own crimp work, get a real setup or hire someone that does it right. This is a nice kit:

http://www.specialized.net/Speciali...eat-Shrink-Terminal-Kit-StaPouchHS-2254.aspx#

You can complain about the cost but it'll allow you to do crimps properly on your boat.

After reading this complete thread, as well as this one: Ground Wires, I've ordered Thomas & Betts kit specified above. Although I love the Picabond crimp tool I have - it isn't designed for ring and spade connectors that are so common on our boats. I ordered it from specialized.net for about $250 delivered.

 

[Two Peas]

My Thomas & Betts Sta-Kon kit arrived yesterday. I never imagined I'd get excited about such a thing...

I have to say the case the kit comes in seems like the most expensive part of the whole deal.

None-the-less, I can't wait to fix up some previously poorly-made connections under the helm with this thing.