ABYC & soldering question

[skibum]

A friend called me today to ask how to properly solder a connection and I sent him this link that I found to show him how to make a "linesman's splice". The poster took nice pictures, and did it the way I was taught. My uncle worked for the local phone company and taught me how to do this when he visited way back when I was building a Sinclair Z80 in my basement.

After sending off the link, I noticed that Google had returned links to several boating sites and soldering. It turns out that sailboaters spend a good deal of time arguing about crimping vs. soldering. Who knew? I guess when you don't have an engine in your boat, you really gotta look deep to find something to work on that gets that testosterone flowing. :grin:

The commonly quoted ABYC quote is "11.14.5.7: Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit...." is fairly straightforward, but yet there is still room for interpretation. I wasn't able to locate the full text of that section. I also read a few comments that state that a crimp connector on a 14AWG wire should be able to withstand a pulling apart force of 30 lbs. That is the equivalent of hanging a large bag of dog food, or a bag and a half of cat litter from it. To me, that is pushing the limit of what a straight piece of 14AWG wire with no splice at all can handle.

The above mentioned linesman's splice is in fact, a very good mechanical connection. Once wrapped, the two pieces of wire aren't coming apart easily. I'm not sure if it would hold the dog food before it is soldered, but once it is soldered and shrink wrapped I think it would.

So... does the mechanical connection made by the splicing technique in addition to the mechanical connection made by the solder qualilfy?

Seems to me that the standard is really saying that you can't just lay two pieces of wire side by side and solder them together. This would make the solder itself the only mechanical and electrical connection. Using the linesman's splice, the wire is mechanically and electrically connected by the splicing technigue (it could be used with just shrink wrap in a low wattage, stable environment, no mechanical load situation just fine). The solder is the second form of mechanical connection as well as the second form of electrical connection.

Solder without mechanical splice = no
Solder with mechanical slice = OK

Agree? Disagree? Opinions?

 

[Henry Boyd]

I also agree the ABYC spec is referring to the practice of simply placing the wires in contact with each other, or placing a wire on something like an alligator clip and then soldering it. So if you were soldering a terminal connector to the end of a wire there would have to be some kind of mechanical connection as well.

As far as I can see the lineman's splice, I have also seen it referred to as a Westinghouse Splice, would be fine.

Henry

 

[Greg]

A lot of people say not to solder connections that are subject to vibration, flexing, etc. The problem is the solder tends to wick down the strands by the joint and the wire can be stressed.

I have soldered connections before as well as crimped, and even both soldered after the crimp. I have never had a connection go bad. Supposedly a properly crimped connection is all you need, it will be gas-tight and mechanically secure. Plus its a bit easier than soldering.

I think if you want to solder, just try to do it quickly, so the solder doesn't wick down the wire too far, but not so quick that you get a cold joint. Then make sure that section is properly strain-relieved and secured.

 

[skibum]

I use hemostats clipped on either side of the actual splice on the wire just before the insulation to draw the heat away and prevent the solder from wicking under the insulation as described in the link.

 

[Mr Salt]

I would like to ask you all how many soldered connections do you find on a new Sea Ray boat? All connections are crimped. Greg is right there is more vibration and flexing in a boat than you have on land. Depending on where you are you may also have the effect of salt air in the metals. Vibration is the same reason you do not find solid wire on a boat. Solid wire will fail if flexed to much, stranded wire will not. Marine wire is also coated with tin to prevent corrosion of the the copper wire. Soldering could effect the tinning. That is my 2 cents. Crimp and when in doubt, crimp

 

[tdappleman]

The splice shown is all I've used on normal solder work and have never had a joint fail. The exception is those connections which may stay wet - like bilge pumps, etc and I use water proof butt connectors. I think the biggest challenge is electrical tape or shrink wrap which can hold up to the elements. I have seen crimped connectors fail - they are just as susceptible to vibration as other methods.

 

[Henry Boyd]

I would like to ask you all how many soldered connections do you find on a new Sea Ray boat? All connections are crimped. Greg is right there is more vibration and flexing in a boat than you have on land. Depending on where you are you may also have the effect of salt air in the metals. Vibration is the same reason you do not find solid wire on a boat. Solid wire will fail if flexed to much, stranded wire will not. Marine wire is also coated with tin to prevent corrosion of the the copper wire. Soldering could effect the tinning. That is my 2 cents. Crimp and when in doubt, crimp

And the shore power 110 circuits are wired with?

 

[Two Peas]

I'm a software guy, so let me start by stating I'm just a rookie when it comes to this stuff.

That being said, one of my favourite tools was introduced to me by a casino in Vegas that I sell software to. They use this to splice wires inside of slot machines, but I think it is used primarlily in the telephone industry. I was so impressed with it that I bought one to have for myself.

It is made by AMP, and is called a Picabond crimp tool. It uses vinyl wrapped crimp cartridges, and you simply place both wires in special slots in the tool, and give it a squeeze. The resulting bond is very strong, protected by a casing of vinyl, and is virtually indestructable.

Anyone here ever use this device? Would it be reasonable to use this under the helm? How about in the ER?

Tool:

Connectors: (they come in many different gauges)

Sample connections:

 

[tdappleman]

That looks nice, expensive but nice. I would add heatshrink on top of it to protect it and provide some level of water resistance.

 

[highslice]

That looks nice, expensive but nice. I would add heatshrink on top of it to protect it and provide some level of water resistance.

If you're in a pinch, Rescue Tape will work too. I just got some and that stuff is amazing.

 

[highslice]

I'm a software guy, so let me start by stating I'm just a rookie when it comes to this stuff.

That being said, one of my favourite tools was introduced to me by a casino in Vegas that I sell software to. They use this to splice wires inside of slot machines, but I think it is used primarlily in the telephone industry. I was so impressed with it that I bought one to have for myself.

It is made by AMP, and is called a Picabond crimp tool. It uses vinyl wrapped crimp cartridges, and you simply place both wires in special slots in the tool, and give it a squeeze. The resulting bond is very strong, protected by a casing of vinyl, and is virtually indestructable.

Anyone here ever use this device? Would it be reasonable to use this under the helm? How about in the ER?

Tool:

Connectors: (they come in many different gauges)

Sample connections:

I used to run a backhoe tearing out concrete slabs for a street repair company. You could say that I did my part to keep the telephone and gas companies' repairmen in business.:grin: I got to see those crimpers used often and up close. It was really slick. Are they as expensive as they look?

PS. Our phone company has a custom tool for repairing trunk lines consisting of a 4' x 2' sheet of plywood with color coded clips on the long ends. They match up the wire on either side and then run a patch between them and crimp both sides. I found out that it takes about 6 hours to repair a 100 home trunk line...

 

[Two Peas]

I got mine used on eBay, with a box of 1,000 purple connectors, for about $150.

Here's one without a case for $129.
Used Picabond on eBay


New at Happ Controls they are $474
New Picabond at Happ Controls

 

[electricaldoctor]

I also agree the ABYC spec is referring to the practice of simply placing the wires in contact with each other, or placing a wire on something like an alligator clip and then soldering it. So if you were soldering a terminal connector to the end of a wire there would have to be some kind of mechanical connection as well.

As far as I can see the lineman's splice, I have also seen it referred to as a Westinghouse Splice, would be fine.

Henry

Back in the day when wheels were square, we referred to this splice as a "Western Union". It is extremely strong and once properly soldered and heat shrink protected, it makes for a very streamlined and professionally executed splice that will keep moisture out.

In an engine room where sparks are especially not desirable, this method of splicing wires is preferable over crimped butt splices and male/female connectors. These types of connections have the potential to vibrate loose and create a spark when the circuit is under load. One must think "ignition protected" in the E.R.

I know that all boats have tons of these crimp connections, but it is always a good day whenever one can improve on any system. You be the judge ... it's your boat.

~Ken

 

[Leafy Isle]

I have to jump in on this subject... I work in the aircraft mntc field and you will never see a soldered connection on an airplane. If you do solder a splice, you are removing the ability of the wire to flex with vibration. You are essentially making a multistrand wire a solid wire. Use a good heat shrink {anchor marine} butt connector for your connection, it is the only approved {ABYC} way.
ps, the AC side of my SeaRay is all multistrand wire....:thumbsup:

 

[electricaldoctor]

I have to jump in on this subject... I work in the aircraft mntc field and you will never see a soldered connection on an airplane. If you do solder a splice, you are removing the ability of the wire to flex with vibration. You are essentially making a multistrand wire a solid wire. Use a good heat shrink {anchor marine} butt connector for your connection, it is the only approved {ABYC} way.
ps, the AC side of my SeaRay is all multistrand wire....:thumbsup:

"You are essentially making a multistrand wire a solid wire." for a total of 1" or the length of the splice ... not the entire length of the wire. :smt021

 

[Leafy Isle]

Yes you are right, it seems like it shouldn't make a difference, but if there is strain on the wire, where do you think it is going to break? The folks at ABYC and Boeing do know what they are talking about. A solder joint is not an approved method, and giving advice to use it in an engine room is just plain wrong!

 

[Jack F]

I’m taking a marine electronics course now and this subject was brought up in class.


• Do you recommend soldering or crimping terminals?
ANCOR recommends crimping vs. soldering. Per ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), "Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit". Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to "cold joints", breaking under fatigue and removes strain when using ANCOR double crimp nylon connectors.


"Terminal connectors shall be the ring or captive spade types.” 11.16.3.4.

"Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used.” 11.16.3.6.

"Ring and captive spade type terminal connectors shall be the same nominal size as the stud.” 11.16.4.1.12.

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”11.16.3.7.

"Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3.” 11.16.3.8.

"The shanks of terminals shall be protected against accidental shorting by the use of insulation barriers or sleeves, except for those used in grounding systems” 11.16.3.9.

 

[electricaldoctor]

I’m taking a marine electronics course now and this subject was brought up in class.


• Do you recommend soldering or crimping terminals?
ANCOR recommends crimping vs. soldering. Per ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), "Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit". Further, crimping provides a solid mechanical connection resistant to "cold joints", breaking under fatigue and removes strain when using ANCOR double crimp nylon connectors.


"Terminal connectors shall be the ring or captive spade types.” 11.16.3.4.

"Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used.” 11.16.3.6.

"Ring and captive spade type terminal connectors shall be the same nominal size as the stud.” 11.16.4.1.12.

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”11.16.3.7.

"Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3.” 11.16.3.8.

"The shanks of terminals shall be protected against accidental shorting by the use of insulation barriers or sleeves, except for those used in grounding systems” 11.16.3.9.

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit". I don't interpret this as saying that soldering shall not be used.

 

[Jack F]

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit". I don't interpret this as saying that soldering shall not be used.

Exactly, that’s why I highlighted it in red.

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”11.16.3.7.

 

[efizjb]

And the shore power 110 circuits are wired with?

Your AC circuits are also stranded wire.