58 Sedan Bridge Official Thread

Has anyone replaced the depth transducer located just forward of the starboard main? The manual says the deadrise is 17degrees, that would mean I would need a 20degree tilted transducer but I wasn't smart enough to measure it before I left Saturday and I want to place my order before my next visit. The manual shows the "sonar" transducer for the optional SR Navigator fish finder as a 12 degree tilt but doesn't list any tilt for the "standard" transducer.

I am replacing my auto pilot because my rotary dial on the control head is bad - a 1 degree turn can either be 0 or 20 degrees depending on it mood. I can tell you my mood when it decides 20 is NOT good!

This is the last of the NMEA0183 and SeaTalk and I want to remove it all and have everything be NMEA2000. This transducer is NMEA0183 and I would rather not run a gateway just for depth when a drop in replacement NMEA2000 transducer only cost $240.
 
swaterhouse said:
Has anyone replaced the depth transducer located just forward of the starboard main? The manual says the deadrise is 17degrees, that would mean I would need a 20degree tilted transducer but I wasn't smart enough to measure it before I left Saturday and I want to place my order before my next visit. The manual shows the "sonar" transducer for the optional SR Navigator fish finder as a 12 degree tilt but doesn't list any tilt for the "standard" transducer.

I am replacing my auto pilot because my rotary dial on the control head is bad - a 1 degree turn can either be 0 or 20 degrees depending on it mood. I can tell you my mood when it decides 20 is NOT good!

This is the last of the NMEA0183 and SeaTalk and I want to remove it all and have everything be NMEA2000. This transducer is NMEA0183 and I would rather not run a gateway just for depth when a drop in replacement NMEA2000 transducer only cost $240.
Click to expand...

Scott, when I upgraded my electronics, I left the standard transducer in place and had them install a B744V thru hull transducer and fairing block. Of course this required a new hole to be drilled though the hull, which I was queasy about, but they did a great job. IIRC, the transducer came with multiple blocks that the installer had to trim to get the transducer in its proper orientation. I then had two independent sources for depth (which is more than a little important on the South Shore of Long Island).
 
I'm sorta doing that, too.

First, though, is that I don't have any kind of working Raymarine stuff, and I haven't looked hard to find where the original transducer was. Also, I do have some working Garmin stuff installed by a PO probably circa 2015-2016, including a NMEA 2000 thru-hull transducer. They MIGHT have used the same hole to convert from a dead Ray transducer to the NMEA 2000 Garmin transducer. (That thru-hull is ahead of the engines, in the bilge roughly between water heater and vacuum generators.)

And then back to the new install: that'll be a Furuno B744V-compatible unit that supports fishfinder/bottom characterization and also happens to include the temp and STW options. In our case, the yard will measure deadrise and so forth, trim the fail

I like to have redundant depth info, too.

-Chris
 
bmac said:
Scott, when I upgraded my electronics, I left the standard transducer in place and had them install a B744V thru hull transducer and fairing block. Of course this required a new hole to be drilled though the hull, which I was queasy about, but they did a great job. IIRC, the transducer came with multiple blocks that the installer had to trim to get the transducer in its proper orientation. I then had two independent sources for depth (which is more than a little important on the South Shore of Long Island).
Click to expand...

We already have the separate transducer for the axioms, I was looking to replace the old nmea0183 with nmea2000 so its always on and I not only have redundant depth but can see the current depth in the vesper cortex anchor alarm when we are ashore. Last year I just left the sonar running the whole time on anchor.

Airmar confirmed its a simple pull out of old and drop in new (the housing allows the transducer to be pulled in the water for cleaning). They say the old part number is a 0 degree tilt, which is good up to 8 degrees of deadrise.

Since the 12 degree is backordered anyway I am going to purchase the 0 degree and confirm before opening the box.
 
ranger58sb said:
I'm sorta doing that, too.

First, though, is that I don't have any kind of working Raymarine stuff, and I haven't looked hard to find where the original transducer was. Also, I do have some working Garmin stuff installed by a PO probably circa 2015-2016, including a NMEA 2000 thru-hull transducer. They MIGHT have used the same hole to convert from a dead Ray transducer to the NMEA 2000 Garmin transducer. (That thru-hull is ahead of the engines, in the bilge roughly between water heater and vacuum generators.)

And then back to the new install: that'll be a Furuno B744V-compatible unit that supports fishfinder/bottom characterization and also happens to include the temp and STW options. In our case, the yard will measure deadrise and so forth, trim the fail

I like to have redundant depth info, too.

-Chris
Click to expand...

The "standard" transducer is indeed in that location between the water heater and vacuum generators. That might be why its a zero degree as well since it is so close to centerline and the keel rounds out in that area.
 
carterchapman said:
Do all your 58's have only 1 hydraulic pump for the power steering on the stbd engine? Anybody added one to the port engine for backup?
Click to expand...

Carter,

You didn't ask but my 550 w/ MAN's has only one power steering pump as well. I have considered adding a second but have not researched therefore following... In emergency I have had to use the Auto Pilot as a backup to control the rudders.
 
carterchapman said:
Do all your 58's have only 1 hydraulic pump for the power steering on the stbd engine? Anybody added one to the port engine for backup?
Click to expand...
Just one here. Never considered a backup but good idea. I’ll follow this for advice.
 
You can still use the steering wheel without the hydraulic pump. It's a tough turn though, that pump mounted to the gear is a hydraulic assist system.
If a hose ruptures on that pump circuit it will probably, unfortunately, also disable the steering wheel hydraulic circuit as they both use the same pressurized fluid reservoir.
Regardless, to answer your question @carterchapman, a second hydraulic pump circuit brings little to the table other than some major complexities. I think there are greater chances of hoses failing than that pump.
 
PROP PULLER?

Did one come with the boat, originally? If so, where would it have been stored?

-Chris
 
Spares yes. No prop puller. It is a pretty big tool that most divers carry on their trucks around here.

Ken
 
ANCHOR POSSIBILITIES??

Follow-up to several associated "anchor" posts above... and now an update, with a few more factoids and hopefully better organization:

Part 1:

The problem: This boat was originally delivered with a galvanized 60-lb “plow” anchor (Delta clone) and 200’ of 5/16” G4 galvanized chain -- with related systems – windlass gypsy, chain stopper – to match. In my mind, this is a fair weather system, inadequate for our boat (~58’ and ~52K lbs) in high winds. All this made worse by some previous owner who replaced the original anchor with a stainless 44-lb Lewmar Delta, even less appropriate -- and which impinges the fiberglass hull above the stainless steel bow breastplate when fully docked. The stainless Delta is attached by a stainless shackle of unknown manufacture and strength – and it’s bent (so it’ll need to be cut off). Our normal anchoring grounds, the Chesapeake Bay and tributaries, are well known for patches of soft, slimy, oozy, soupy mud… a known problem for many anchor designs, including the Delta and other plow anchors. On inspection, the original chain is in bad shape, too.

The immediate improvement – anchor replacement with a galvanized 88-lb Rocna Vulcan anchor, and shackle replacement with a pair of alloy Crosby G209As, comes after significant research.

Background: We have had very good results anchoring in Chesapeake mud with both Fortress and pivoting SuperMAX anchors, and decent results with a steel Danforth. Others, especially Delta anchors, haven’t been reliable here.

Fortress performed some significant Chesapeake mud testing in 2014, and that generated some useful findings. And of course, the Fortress anchors outperformed all others. On the other hand, Fortress anchors also come with some pros and cons. Pros: they dismantle for easier stowage, and they’re lighter (for size) so lend themselves toward use as a kedge if necessary. Cons: The anchors must be dismantled and then reconfigured to change the fluke angle from normal to mud settings, they don’t ride all that gracefully on roller davits such as those we have installed, and they are also said to have difficulty resetting after tide changes -- although we haven’t experienced any resetting failures. Because of the cons, we tend to carry a Fortress as a back-up to our primary anchor, and as a potential kedge…. not as our primary anchor.

The pivoting SuperMAX anchor also allows an adjustment for specific substrate, but the change can be done easily within the davit without fully dismantling the anchor. On the other hand, we weren’t able to easily discover whether an appropriately-sized SuperMAX (MAX-20, 73-lbs) will fit our davit – without actually acquiring one and trying it.

Hence our research into other options, and hence why we’ve so far ended up with an 88-lb Vulcan 40.

Anchor manufacturers do their own testing, but what they publish tends to focus on their own products and is less comparison-focused – except apparently when they see a chance to bash the other guy’s products. On the other hand, Steve Goodwin (S/V Panope), has taken it upon himself to test and compare as many anchors as he can… and while some of his tests aren’t as “real world” as they could be, and while he hasn’t tested every anchor in every weight, his test protocol is at least consistent across all tested anchors so trends might become apparent and so comparison is at least viable. One of his latest test videos, #131 –
– happens to focus on the Vulcan, but more importantly for my immediate purposes, toward the end he also includes a tabular and rank-ordered data summary of all the anchors he’s tested to date.

The Vulcan performed well in this #131 test, but that was only one data point I eventually used. I recomputed his overall rankings after additionally weighting Steve’s soft mud tests. I eliminated all of the roll-bar anchors from consideration, partly because info from other Internet sources – Morgan’s Cloud, cruisersforum.com, trawlerforum.com, etc. – suggest the rollbar has now become known to sometimes cause more problems than it solves. I eliminated stainless anchors because they’re generally weaker than comparable galvanized anchors of decent alloyed steel and because they’re generally much more expensive (and we don’t need the bling). I eliminated aluminum versions of galvanized anchors, mostly because our primary-anchor application will benefit from all the weight we can deploy. I eliminated multi-piece (usually 2-piece) anchors partly because that seems to add an unnecessary complication and/or could add an additional failure point.

-Chris
 
ANCHOR POSSIBILITIES??

Follow-up to several associated "anchor" posts above... and now an update, with a few more factoids and hopefully better organization:

Part 2:

But about that SPADE: I eliminated that because it’s a multi-piece anchor, even though John Harries (Morgan’s Cloud, behind a pay wall) has been very vocal about how their SPADE has served them well for years (approaching decades). On the other hand, John also cites at least one instance where the connecting bolt of somebody’s SPADE anchor went walk-about and the shank returned without its fluke. The connecting bolt isn’t load-bearing in the SPADE design, so that was likely an aberration, but… the possibility put me off a bit, notwithstanding John’s recommendations and even though the SPADE performed at least better then the Delta in the Fortress mud tests.

Of remaining anchors that performed better than the Delta in Steve’s tests, that left the Vulcan by Rocna and the SARCA Excel by Anchor Right Australia… with the Vulcan ranking slightly better than the Excel… (and better than the SPADE)… so next I began taking other factors into consideration. Anecdotal reports on the Internet suggest the Vulcan and the Excel designs have been effective for many users. The Vulcan is a sorta-SPADE-like scoop design, so might be expected to be SPADE-like in performance – and since the Vulcan actually tests better than the SPADE, maybe more of a good thing. Rocna recommends a Vulcan 40kg (88-lbs) for our length, weight, and potential windage. The Excel tests slightly better than the SPADE, too. ARA recommends an Excel #8, also 88-lbs, for our situation. Ideally, I want to use our existing davit, and even more ideally, without significant changes. Ideally, I want to use our existing electric windlass, ditto, And chain stopper, ditto ditto.

Rocna provides templates on their website that can be used to create a cardboard mock-up of their anchors. Did that. I was also able to source an Excel #8 template from Jimmy Green Marine in the UK, to make a mock-up. Did that. Tried each. Vulcan 40 mock-up fits. Barely. Excel #8 mock-up doesn’t fit. Sourcing a Vulcan 40 from a local chandler was relatively easy. Sourcing an Excel #8 from the North American distributor (Ground Tackle Marine, in BC, Canada) would have become more of a problem had there been any surprise issues with fit that might have required a return. Bought a Vulcan 40.

Vulcan 40 issues: This is a very tight fit! The toe of the fluke occasionally impacts against the stainless breastplate during recovery (but at least that’s why the breastplate is there). When fully docked, the top of the shank is hard against a welded bail over the top of the davit and the anchor tilts a little more – shank downward, fluke outward -- and the toe is about 1/2” from the breastplate, better, still not ideal. My first guess is that increasing the diameter of the lower roller might easily (relatively painlessly) add another inch of toe-breastplate separation. We’ll see.

Other remaining issues: Our original chain isn’t in great shape, it’s smaller than ideal anyway, and larger shackles won’t fit through the links. Which means using two shackles, one 3/8” that will fit the chain links, and one 1/2” that will fit the anchor. Two shackles together induce a slight bit of rotation when the anchor is returning and a slight bit of cant when the anchor is fully docked; not horrible, but a single shackle would be better. (Or perhaps a swivel, ideally avoided, if that were to become necessary to address recovery issues.) Rocna recommends 7/16” chain and a 1/2” shackle. On the other hand, 7/16” chain seems a bit larger than necessary. The chain brand/product will be Peerless ACCO G43 High Test (HT). A compromise of 3/8” chain may end up being viable. On the other hand, the Peerless/ACCO website and Crosby charts suggest a 1/2” G209A shackle needs 7/16” chain to eliminate the double-shackle thing. I’m inclined to splice on a significant length of rope, too, at the boat end… so we have maybe 400’ total of available rode but especially so we also have sufficient remaining temporary length in case we have to cut the rope, bend on a spare anchor, and buoy the chain and the Vulcan anchor for later recovery. Presumably that would be 3/4” 8-plait and I’d source New England Rope. (Don’t see where anyone routinely offers a 7/8” rope diameter that would have been my first guess for mating with 7/16” chain.) Anyway, the verdict is still out on all that sizing analysis.

In either case, upsizing the chain will also require changing the windlass gypsy (chainwheel). (@swaterhouse But NOT the whole windlass, Scott.) Our windlass is a 24V Lofrans Project 1500 USA Version – easily capable of dealing with the weights of our anchor and chain options – and replacement gypsies are available from the U.S. distributor, Imtra. We may also have to upsize the installed Windline chain stopper, not a huge expense depending on fitting issues (identical deck-mounting holes would be nice).

That’s as far as I’ve gotten, to date. And this is simply reporting. None of this should suggest I’m recommending a Vulcan 40 (or any other size Vulcan) for our particular boat model and anchoring grounds. I won’t be able to evaluate efficacy until we can use the boat over this coming Summer. Also, I believe technique is at least important as the anchor itself… and even then, our anchoring experience will be more anecdotal than scientific. Our anchoring grounds are perhaps slightly unique, too, so what works well here may not be best elsewhere.

And I don’t do anchor religion. If this works, good. If it fails, even once, I go back into evaluation mode -- was it my fault? or the anchor’s? -- and if it seems like the anchor itself is what failed I can move on… maybe after giving it a second or even third chance, but otherwise in about a heartbeat.

Finally, I’ll eventually get around to a similar but likely more simplified analysis for selecting a Fortress spare, in case we might need a backup or kedge for some reason. We’ve already experienced: when you need one, you need one, pretty much right now. That selection criteria will have to take portability into account, too, especially since there’s a practical limit to what size/weight we could carry out on the dinghy.

-Chris
 
ANCHOR POSSIBILITIES??

Follow-up to several associated "anchor" posts above... and now an update, with a few more factoids and hopefully better organization:

Part 3:

A few pics; first the "original" (replacement) 44-lb Lewmar Delta:

Delta_davit_snap.JPG


Next, the 88-lb Rocna Vulcan 40, from the front:

Vulcan_davit_snap1.JPG


And finally, the Vulcan from the top (note canting caused by two shackles, described in the text):

Vulcan_davit_snap2.JPG


-Chris
 
Anyone have a source for a new rudder angle indicator that’s compatible with our steering system. The original part number is 1502871 and pictured below but can’t seem to source a direct replacement.
 

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Gotta love those MAN engines. Just completed our 800 hour service. All of the scheduled services as recommended by MAN plus we had a little seepage at the water pumps so they rebuilt them, and we had the display batteries replaced on the helm displays. $49,762.12. Yikes!!!!!

Ken
 
missnmountains said:
Gotta love those MAN engines. Just completed our 800 hour service. All of the scheduled services as recommended by MAN plus we had a little seepage at the water pumps so they rebuilt them, and we had the display batteries replaced on the helm displays. $49,762.12. Yikes!!!!!

Ken
Click to expand...
I'm amazed what they get for replacing the batteries on the displays and MMDS boards! Who did you use Ken?
 
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