The bid stops

When I found my current boat I contacted the owners family who was selling the boat for their father. I told them that I was interested in both the boat and the optional trailer but that I was unable to travel that distance and not look at a number of boats in order to compare fairly and to justify the expense of a fact finding tour.
This brought on almost two months of weekly phone calls from the owner (who was now involved in actively selling the boat) to me in an attempt to build my interest in the boat. I took this to mean that I was the only potential buyer he had.
Although cheaper boats were available in the same general area of Michigan, none of them were even close to being in the condition of this one, particularly since he was the original owner and had all of the documentation that went with the purchase.
I knew the boat had been for sale for almost 2 years so I offered $5000 less than his asking price and specified that it had to include the trailer. He (and his sons) were not too interested in that but I assured them that my offer was all (and indeed it was) that I could, and would be offering. Deliberations went on for several hours and I assured the vendor that I knew his boat was worth more in a different economic climate but I also assured him that it would not be coming from me.
I was not BSing him. The condition of the boat was so nice I abandoned all of the negotiating tacks that I had planned to take and went immediately to my best (and FINAL) offer. I knew that I was close when I overhead the owner tell his sons that if he accepted my offer he could put his slip in Grand Haven up for sale, or else he was going to have to sit on that for another year as well.
When he came back to discuss it with me I pulled out my wallet and threw the $200 that I had in it on the table and said I was now officially tapped out.
I think this is relevant to your situation, Russ, in that everyone, both buyer and seller, has a limit on what they will offer or accept. This number may not be known consciously but will become known during the negotiation process and is not based on some predictable linear mathematical progression.
Suddenly you are there and it is pay or go home.
Or do as I did .... pay AND go home.
I had a great summer (weather excluded) on what is undoubtedly my wifes and mine dream boat.
 
Darn good advice Someday Lady II, I like your boat name also!!:thumbsup:
 
Personally, I would thank him for his consideration and tell him that while his price is reasonable, you're going to pursue other possibilities for a while. Tell him that your offer still stands and that should he decide to take it, and you haven't found something else, you'll be very happy to move forward with the deal immediately. Likewise, tell him that if after some searching you haven't found a more suitable deal for you, you'll contact him and pay his price if the boat has not yet sold.

And then move on.
 
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douglee25 said:
I guess I was trying to get you to look at the sale of this new boat from the seller side. In the case of you 370, Dale made several comments that he was interested in it. You countered with something to effect that you weren't interested in selling at a 'fire sale price'. To me that tells me you're going to ask top dollar for your boat. My assumption was confirmed when you said you would put the boat on the market in the $89 - $109k range. Then when Caver showed asking/selling prices of 370's, it also reaffirmed to me that you were asking top dollar. So hypothetically speaking... you ask $89-$109k and in the mean time you purchase the new boat. Now you sit on your 370 for a year and continue to realize depreciation cost and
carrying cost all the while using your new boat. If you would have had a more reasonable asking price initially, it would have sold
faster. You'll probably spend more than the $6k that you're apart on the new boat. Again, my post was for you to just look at
the new boat sale from both sides of the envelope.


Thanks Doug I appreciate your intent. You are correct, I'm not selling mine at a fire sale price but the numbers I put out there were arbitrary. It so happened the top number coincided with high market, I suppose it's because I am very aware of what my boat is worth, condition, equipment and where she will need to be priced to sell quickly or if I am willing to wait. I don't need to sell her, I am not concerned with depreciation or cost of ownership now or during this procee of buying another boat. For all it matters I may give this one to my son or use them in different parts of the country. I appreciate your input, I recognize the relationships between selling and buying and other aspects of my life that affect my budget. However I treat buying this boat and selling that one as separate actions, I am not trading it in. The purpose and my interest is in the relationships between asking and selling prices and buyers and sellers perspectives on negotiating. Thanks again for your input.
Click to expand...
 
Alex F said:
Russ,

I think there’s something missing in your calculations not in terms of the numbers (as you said you’ll need $30K for this 460 to get her where you want it), but in terms of expectation. Let’s say your wish list includes hydraulic lift, KVH with upgraded TVs, upgraded electronics here’s what I mean:
  1. You’re looking at 1998-2001 boats. 90% or greater of them will not have all the things from your wish list. This is where you’ll have to prioritize. I always focus on big ticket items like the lift, bow thruster (only if you need it), KVH, etc. All other items are cheaper and can be done in time at your own pace with proper research.
  2. You (just like any of us) want to find best maintained boat with all the items on your wish list. It’s all possible but not at the

    bargain price. The boats that are meeting your wish list and well maintained will have MUCH higher price tag and most likely won’t even make it your list of prospected boats to look at.
  3. I think it’s fair to say that your total wish list adds up to over $30K (lift $15K, KVH with TVs $5K-$7K, upgraded electronics $6K-$8K). Considering my point in paragraph #1 it sounds like the boats that priced well within your range will not have most of the things from your list, which means that anytime you’re looking at a nice and clean boat will require around $20K or so to fulfill your wish list. This is somewhat the case with the current 460, but she has all big ticket items. The situation will not change much
    when you go to 450 or 410. You expand your options, but the basic issue will remain with most of them.
  4. Anytime we’re shopping with limited budget there are compromises that have to take place. The question is what compromises make most sense to you, the hull size (going for cheaper or newer 410 for the same money as older 460), the design and layout (going for similar priced 450)? You have your reasons why 460 tops your list, thus IMO, I have no idea what kind of 410 you’ll need to find to justify loosing nice 460 over $6K.
From what I see, the hydraulic lift makes a huge difference in terms how big or how small your list of prospected boats will be, b/c most boats don’t have it. It’s a very nice option, but also very expensive one. If you don’t get it now I’m willing to bet that you won’t justify the expense on installing one later for $15k-$20K. So, if you really want it then we’re looking at a very short list of boats that may have other items from your list like KVH with upgraded TVs, upgraded electronics, etc. In this example you can see
how giving up the lift you potentially can gain a lot. But, saving money not necessary means that you’ll be 100% happy. This is
why it’s important to have prioritized wish list and know what you’re willing to compromis


If this 460 is very well maintained, very clean, has a lift and at least one or two other items from your list (upgraded TVs or KVH or upgraded electronics) it sounds like she’s very close to the one to make you a happy ma


I hope this doesn't make it more confusing.
Click to expand...

I will call you
 
Someday Lady II said:
When I found my current boat I contacted the owners family who was selling the boat for their father. I told them that I was interested in both the boat and the optional trailer but that I was unable to travel that distance and not look at a number of boats in order to compare fairly and to justify the expense of a fact finding tour.
This brought on almost two months of weekly phone calls from the owner (who was now involved in actively selling the boat) to me in an attempt to build my interest in the boat. I took this to mean that I was the only potential buyer he had.
Although cheaper boats were available in the same general area of Michigan, none of them were even close to being in the condition of this one, particularly since he was the original owner and had all of the documentation that went with the purchase.
I knew the boat had been for sale for almost 2 years so I offered $5000 less than his asking price and specified that it had to include the trailer. He (and his sons) were not too interested in that but I assured them that my offer was all (and indeed it was) that I could, and would be offering. Deliberations went on for several hours and I assured the vendor that I knew his boat was worth more in a different economic climate but I also assured him that it would not be coming from me.
I was not BSing him. The condition of the boat was so nice I abandoned all of the negotiating tacks that I had planned to take and went immediately to my best (and FINAL) offer. I knew that I was close when I overhead the owner tell his sons that if he accepted my offer he could put his slip in Grand Haven up for sale, or else he was going to have to sit on that for another year as well.
When he came back to discuss it with me I pulled out my wallet and threw the $200 that I had in it on the table and said I was now officially tapped out.
I think this is relevant to your situation, Russ, in that everyone, both buyer and seller, has a limit on what they will offer or accept. This number may not be known consciously but will become known during the negotiation process and is not based on some predictable linear mathematical progression.
Suddenly you are there and it is pay or go home.
Or do as I did .... pay AND go home.
I had a great summer (weather excluded) on what is undoubtedly my wifes and mine dream boat.
Click to expand...

Good story, thanks for sharing it
 
copb8tx said:
Personally, I would thank him for his consideration and tell him that while his price is reasonable, you're going to pursue other possibilities for a while. Tell him that your offer still stands and that should he decide to take it, and you haven't found something else, you'll be very happy to move forward with the deal immediately. Likewise, tell him that if after some searching you haven't found a more suitable deal for you, you'll contact him and pay his price if the boat has not yet sold.

And then move on.
Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail on the head
 
mmcguire2002 said:
Couldn't agree more, but some sellers don't use logic. They just dig their heels in. When I was negotiating on my current boat, I almost purchased a different one. We were off by about $10K. The boat had been on the market for 6 months already. I put together a spreadsheet showing the owner the cost of keeping the boat for another 6 months (or what it had cost him to keep it the current 6 months). My estimate was around $14K. I was conservative and showed him $10K to $11K. He still wouldn't budge. I bought another boat instead.
Click to expand...

I hear you. Some people do go into that grudge match stage or get offended. That is where the seller loses alot more than the buyer in my opinion. You went out and found another boat you like. He likely still has the boat he doesnt want and is out another 20K by now. When it comes to selling a boat, for me, it is about stopping the bleeding. I look at those carrying costs. They add up quick and its tough enough when you want the boat let alone when you are paying the money for a boat you dont want.
 
Quite often things sellers or selling brokers do don't make any sense. But, our focus as a buyer is the boat. If it's a boat that meets our criteria in all areas the rest is just details we can ignore, unless there's something about the seller that raises some warning flags regarding the boat or the deal in general.

The case scenario you guys described simply points out hard headed sellers who unfortunatelly wasting buyer's time. As we can see from the experience it's best to move on, unless the boat is worth the extra money.
 
You guys might be over looking a couple of things........

Its Christmas/New Years; maybe the buyer isn't so much hard headed as he is out of town on a skiing trip where there are no cell towers. But more likely is the seller's financial situation: What if he has negotiated down to the amount of the outstanding loan he has out on the boat and he has no cash to bring to closing. Even if Russ's offer is reasonable and the 2 sides are close enough to negotiate a deal, it isn't going to happen...period. Because we aren't privy to the sellers side of the story doesn't make him arbitrary, stupid, or hardheaded or a bad person. He did negotiate the price down about the national average discount from asking $, so he isn't wasting anybody time and the fact that he won't go lower certainly shouldn't raise any red flags for the buyer.

Just a decenting opinion from the peanut gallery......................
 
fwebster said:
You guys might be over looking a couple of things........

Its Christmas/New Years; maybe the buyer isn't so much hard headed as he is out of town on a skiing trip where there are no cell towers. But more likely is the seller's financial situation: What if he has negotiated down to the amount of the outstanding loan he has out on the boat and he has no cash to bring to closing. Even if Russ's offer is reasonable and the 2 sides are close enough to negotiate a deal, it isn't going to happen...period. Because we aren't privy to the sellers side of the story doesn't make him arbitrary, stupid, or hardheaded or a bad person. He did negotiate the price down about the national average discount from asking $, so he isn't wasting anybody time and the fact that he won't go lower certainly shouldn't raise any red flags for the buyer.

Just a decenting opinion from the peanut gallery......................
Click to expand...
very good point Frank
I have been in the sellers position ...(30-50k range)...selling classic cars
and when there was no impass ...I kept my product
and a couple of times the INITIAL OFFER was so low I have told the person to get reasonable or get the hell out of my garage
 
My thought is this and the way I am approaching my next boat. I am going to do all the research and look for the right boat in my price range. Then I am going to try and negotiate the lowest price possible. I am not going to waste a broker or individual's time over $6000. If the boat is not in my price range I would never even consider it. I believe that this small amount of money on a large purchase shouldn't hold you back. The boat should be in your range before you ever look at it!
 
Hellman Huddle said:
My thought is this and the way I am approaching my next boat. I am going to do all the research and look for the right boat in my price range. Then I am going to try and negotiate the lowest price possible. I am not going to waste a broker or individual's time over $6000. If the boat is not in my price range I would never even consider it. I believe that this small amount of money on a large purchase shouldn't hold you back. The boat should be in your range before you ever look at it!
Click to expand...

Hellman, you should really read the thread before you post in it. Obviously the boat is in my price range, there are so many factors that determine price. There are many things that can affect that price as you are negotiating but thats not what this thread is about.
 
fwebster said:
You guys might be over looking a couple of things........

Its Christmas/New Years; maybe the buyer isn't so much hard headed as he is out of town on a skiing trip where there are no cell towers. But more likely is the seller's financial situation: What if he has negotiated down to the amount of the outstanding loan he has out on the boat and he has no cash to bring to closing. Even if Russ's offer is reasonable and the 2 sides are close enough to negotiate a deal, it isn't going to happen...period. Because we aren't privy to the sellers side of the story doesn't make him arbitrary, stupid, or hardheaded or a bad person. He did negotiate the price down about the national average discount from asking $, so he isn't wasting anybody time and the fact that he won't go lower certainly shouldn't raise any red flags for the buyer...............
Click to expand...

Frank, I totally agree with you. My comments were not about the specific case Russ is dealing with, but it was general statement referring to some situations I personally encountered.

The hardheaded comment would defenately apply to the seller I was dealing with in FL. BTW, I'm glad that he was hardheaded, b/c it worked to my advantage in the very end. That case was a great example to what you've described. You're also right that it may not be fair to judge people we never met, but sometimes things just don't make sense. A boat was on the market for a long time. A company "XYZ" was hired to take care of it to make sure the boat works and floats. The owner hapens to fall behind payments and the bank is knocking on the door. Time goes on and the boat doesn't sell. The bank is now about to "storm the door". All of a sudden I come in to the picture with the offer that I was told to cover owner's expenses. By the time we got to the final point of negotiations a 1.5 months went by. Finally, we're $7K apart. Seller said no and I walk away. Company "XYZ" has outstanding bill for $13K for all the services. I knew the deadline of the final notice from the bank, which expired just few days after I walked away from the deal.

You tell me where is the logic here? Without knowing seller's situation and whatever his game plan was, I can think that defaulting the loan might be looking better on his checkbook, but I doubt it was the best way out in the big picture (his credit). I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet that this boat was sold for less than what I was offerring.

I think that since the boating industry took a nose dive, often enough deals like these where $150K-$200K boat is $6K-$7K apart from making it a done deal, the seller regrets it b/c later on the boat will sell for less. The problem is that the time is ticking and the longer seller owns the boat the more he has to pay out of the pocket. IMO, every dollar spent from the time the boat is on the market is affecting the selling price. It's nice when seller is in situation where he doesn't have to sell the boat and uses it while she's listed, but this is very different category of sellers that eventually end up in the position that they re-evaluate their situation and make the final decision do they want to sell or keep the boat.

P.S. As you could see from the post my suggestion was along the same lines you're thinking, let the holliday season pass. People's mind set is not always about making deals, it's family and vacation time. This is why waiting for this time frame to pass could be the best approach.
 
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Bottom line is that every buyer has his number and every seller has his number. If they meet in the middle there's a boat bought, if not then somebody else will sell a boat. I see it all the time from both sides every day, I will never push a client to sell their boat for a low ball offer but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't explain what "could" happen if they decline the offer or not even play ball and counter.
 
Carver370 said:
Bottom line is that every buyer has his number and every seller has his number. If they meet in the middle there's a boat bought, if not then somebody else will sell a boat. I see it all the time from both sides every day, I will never push a client to sell their boat for a low ball offer but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't explain what "could" happen if they decline the offer or not even play ball and counter.
Click to expand...

You are exactly right! In case like this, the owner and buyer are crazy. First, the owner, $6000 is about a years worth of dockage and not to mention the other carrying cost like the possibility of having to do a bottom job. Second, the buyer, if this is the boat you really want then find ways to make up some of that $6000 you are being such a hard tail about like give me a full tank of fuel, which could be up to $2000 or dockage until you get settle in. Personally, I am not comfortable wasting peoples time over such a small amount of money. I haven't sold a lot of boats but I have sold a lot of houses and wouldn't let a house not get sold over $6000. Between house payment, insurance, taxes, utilities, that $6000 dollars gets gone quick and after 5-6 months you are now losing money. Therefore, I think both of y'all are stubborn, but more to the seller than than the buyer. I think most people realize the amount of time it takes to find the right boat and when you do you need to make the deal.
 
Carver370 said:
Bottom line is that every buyer has his number and every seller has his number. If they meet in the middle there's a boat bought, if not then somebody else will sell a boat. I see it all the time from both sides every day, I will never push a client to sell their boat for a low ball offer but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't explain what "could" happen if they decline the offer or not even play ball and counter.
Click to expand...

Amen
 
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