The bid stops

[320Bob]

...I want to pay cash and I only have so much to work with while having to allow substantial output to close the deal and perform necessary service. The platform is solid and has my preferred options. So bottom line is that I may be over extending a bit to purchase but we all know that it is the least expensive part. I have the long haul budgeted for. And I am oh so close to fitting this one in to the purchase budget! I guess time will tell.

Russ,
This is what I believe is partially derailing your negotiating ability. I have posted before that I believe it is financially unsound to pay cash for a boat because it is a depreciating asset and I can earn more on the cash with my investments than it costs me in interest. You are limiting the boat you can by and/or fix up by paying for it cash you have in hand. If you alternatively put 50% or even 75% down and financed the rest, the $6K difference would be immaterial if it truly was the best boat on the market for you. I understand completely all the risks of being leveraged but what are the risks of putting all or most of your available cash in a "toy." The other financial impediment to your negotiations is you still own another boat. That's rule #2 for me which is never own two boats or houses at the same time since both are illiquid investments. Selling your existing boat first, gives you additional equity and or cash to put into your next boat. By paying 100% cash and not selling your 370 first is tying at least one hand behind your back when negotiating for your next boat in my opinion.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Turtle, in my opinion it needs but they are not critical items. I would agree but it depends on what it "needs".

A want is a want. Heck, you don't "need" a head but you want one. I looked at a ton of boats, I didn't stop looking until I found one that had everything I wanted. Sure, some of the things were old but it had it and it all worked and I didn't need to buy it. And it was less than all of the other ones that didn't have the stuff. They are out there, it just takes some digging to find them. I looked at maybe 10 from Boston to Florida, incorporated it into vacations and road trips. It just not the cost of buying all the stuff you want, you also have to take into account the time, money, and energy to buy and install this stuff. That is just the stuff you know, there will be a list of stuff that you didn't know until after you own the boat. I would take this stalled moment to renew the search and see if you can beat what you found.

Oh yeah, sell your other boat first. I owned two boats and it'll make you a nervous wreck juggling the two come spring. You'll end up giving it away just to get it out of the way.

 

[Russ Calasant]

Mike,
I am not taking this personally. I did have the opportunity to meet Russ and his wife at the MYC rendevous this past August. He and the Mrs. are awesome people from my limited experience knowing them. That being said, I tend to take this position when ANY OP starts getting attacked by the masses on this forum when he has done nothing to instigate it. You need look no further than Gofirstclass' Hawker Thread to see that I defended him when those attacks began. We have both been on this forum for about the same amount of time and I'm sure you have seen this countless times too

Although you state that your comments weren't directed at Russ, this is his thread. It is hard to see a different target of your criticisms in the body of your responses. You are entitled to your opinions, as we all are. But, if you read what you wrote it certainly appears to be directed to the OP. If I were you I wouldn't expect an invite out on Russ' new boat when he purchases one!
:lol:

Todd, you have some valid points here. However I do not take it personally either with obvious exception.
It is difficult at times to see exactly whom the target is if it is not me. It is obvious that anyone with
even average intelligence (me) understands that no one of the same would make comments or criticisms
directly at me or this particular situation without knowing the facts or particulars about it specifically. I
purposefully did not disclose them. What I did not expect was that people after making their own
conclusions and assumptions would make comments and criticisms on the basis that those assumptions
are fact. Hypothetical scenarios are great, this not always so much, I think they call that talking out of
your a*#. And that's okay as long as it's remembered that this is not factual, it's hypothetical. How could
it be anything else?! Just take it for what it's worth.

BTW just to be clear the basic purchase scenario is real, the details are hypothetical (contributed)
There is a lot of great input on this thread, there is also a lot of useless BS. As I think another has said, this is a public forum. I'm enjoying it, thanks to all that have contributed- I don't know where some of you get the time!

 

[Russ Calasant]

Woody and I think alike....

And you admit it?!

 

[moparlvr4406]

offer the CASH then...
drive up in a dumptruck full of nickles for the purchase price and tell him if he knocks off 20k ......you'll leave them in the rolls:grin:

if not you will dump them in his driveway.

 

[Russ Calasant]

Come on guys, this is a transaction about a "high six figure number" and a 3% difference between the seller and buyer. That is a difference of $900 to a guy buying a $30,000 boat or $150 to a guy buying at $5,000. You guys saying you wouldn't cough up the $900 or the $150 if the seller wouldn't budge? I do not think so. "To some people $6k is alot of money or at least enough to draw the line" they have NO business negotiating on a "high six figure number" vessel. It is all a matter of perspective.

There is no exact price for anything, it is what a buyer and seller agree on, most things like boats we can look at recent sales and get an idea what others value the property at and work from there. In negations there are two types of value verifiable and emotional, verifiable is in a say 10% range and validated by an appraisal. Emotional values are the small percentages not
quantifiable by any scientific method, only by subjective methods. This situation is in the emotional value range for both parties.
This is not to say these emotional values are right or wrong only to point out their existence and subjective nature. Hellman is
saying he doesn't let the emotional value range deter him from buying or selling as is his prerogative.

Russ must do what he must do and in his defense he did bridge the gap by $6,000 already and got nothing back from the seller. MM

See this is an example of what I am talking about. Perspective?! This is not a matter of perspective, this is a matter of making things up. These are not the numbers, it's not just 6 k. And the numbers have relevance, they are not arbitrary. They are built on substance. Of which you have none, if you were talking about the whole picture and total percentages that would be one thing but your not, you have singled out 6k. It's fine if your talking in generality or a hypothetical situation but you are referring this back to me and are not. This has no basis.
I like your perspective in the second paragraph but I think it is narrow. And your last sentence you were getting back to the facts, by your own statement it is now 12k, not 6! Would you cough that up?! Or is 20k the number?

 

[Russ Calasant]

Russ,
This is what I believe is partially derailing your negotiating ability. I have posted before that I believe it is financially unsound to pay cash for a boat because it is a depreciating asset and I can earn more on the cash with my investments than it costs me in interest. You are limiting the boat you can by and/or fix up by paying for it cash you have in hand. If you alternatively put 50% or even 75% down and financed the rest, the $6K difference would be immaterial if it truly was the best boat on the market for you. I understand completely all the risks of being leveraged but what are the risks of putting all or most of your available cash in
a "toy." The other financial impediment to your negotiations is you still own another boat. That's rule #2 for me which is never
own two boats or houses at the same time since both are illiquid investments. Selling your existing boat first, gives you additional
equity and or cash to put into your next boat. By paying 100% cash and not selling your 370 first is tying at least one hand
behind your back when negotiating for your next boat in my opinion.

Interesting and sound advice. My goals may be different, for example I have investments that are earning and my goal is to be completely debt free. It is the amount we budgeted, not all or most of the cash on hand. And 6k in cash is a whole lot cheaper than 6k financed, it's never immaterial in my opinion. I agree on owning two boats, it's a timing issue and as I posted earlier I may be keeping her in the family.

 

[MonacoMike]

Mike,
I am not taking this personally. I tend to take this position when ANY OP starts getting attacked by the masses on this forum when he has done nothing to instigate it.

Although you state that your comments weren't directed at Russ, this is his thread. It is hard to see a different target of your criticisms in the body of your responses. You are entitled to your opinions, as we all are. But, if you read what you wrote it certainly appears to be directed to the OP. If I were you I wouldn't expect an invite out on Russ' new boat when he purchases one! :lol:

I fail to see where Russ is "attacked" in any significant way by "masses on this forum". There have been some opinions expressed that he may not want to hear but I see no malice in anyone's comments. In my comment you found so disturbing, I gave a perspective to YOU of the percentage of the difference versus the price. Then I gave an explanation of provable value versus opinion value, NEVER mentioning Russ until in a separate paragraph I said; "Russ must do what he must do and in his defense he did bridge the gap by $6,000 already and got nothing back from the seller.". This was intended to support Russ. I further see NO criticisms of Russ in my post and did not intend for it to be received that way. One thing being made clear is differing opinions and perspective are not welcome in this thread. MM

 

[Russ Calasant]

offer the CASH then...
drive up in a dumptruck full of nickles for the purchase price and tell him if he knocks off 20k ......you'll leave them in the rolls:grin:

if not you will dump them in his driveway.

Now that's funny

 

[Russ Calasant]

I fail to see where Russ is "attacked" in any significant way by "masses on this forum". There have been some opinions expressed that he may not want to hear but I see no malice in anyone's comments. In my comment you found so disturbing, I gave a perspective to YOU of the percentage of the difference versus the price. Then I gave an explanation of provable value versus opinion value, NEVER mentioning Russ until in a separate paragraph I said; "Russ must do what he must do and in his defense he did bridge the gap by $6,000 already and got nothing back from the seller.". This was intended to support Russ. I further see NO criticisms of Russ in my post and did not intend for it to be received that way. One thing being
made clear is differing opinions and perspective are not welcome in this thread. MM

I disagree, it is very difficult to discern intent in several posts. But of course this is an opinion and a perspective as is Todds, because it differs from yours it's clear that differing opinions are not welcome? That makes no sense. Of course differing opinions and perspectives are welcome, it was the whole point! Maybe it appears that way because I or others don't understand the basis of some of the differing opinions and perspective or the intent.

 

[Russ Calasant]

A want is a want. Heck, you don't "need" a head but you want one. I looked at a ton of boats, I didn't stop looking until I found one that had everything I wanted. Sure, some of the things were old but it had it and it all worked and I didn't need to buy it. And it was less than all of the other ones that didn't have the stuff. They are out there, it just takes some digging to find them. I looked at maybe 10 from Boston to Florida, incorporated it into vacations and road trips. It just not the cost of buying all the stuff you want, you also have to take into account the time, money, and energy to buy and install this stuff. That is just the stuff you know, there will be a list of stuff that you didn't know until after you own the boat. I would take this stalled
moment to renew the search and see if you can beat what you found.

Oh yeah, sell your other boat first. I owned two boats and it'll make you a nervous wreck juggling the two come spring. You'll end up giving it away just to get it out of the way.

Well heck Turtle, with that logic, the whole boat is a want! I do get what your saying though, thanks for the input.

 

[MonacoMike]

See this is an example of what I am talking about. Perspective?! This is not a matter of perspective, this is a matter of making things up. These are not the numbers, it's not just 6 k. And the numbers have relevance, they are not arbitrary. They are built on substance. Of which you have none, if you were talking about the whole picture and total percentages that would be one thing but your not, you have singled out 6k. It's fine if your talking in generality or a hypothetical situation but you are referring this back to me and are not. This has no basis.

Well, I spent the last two weeks in a bidding tennis match going back and forth. Quite painful actually. I wish I had good news to report but the owner has stopped and refused to go any lower. We ended up $12k apart on a high six figure number. I came half way and offered $6k more and he is staying at his previous number, now $6k away from my last offer. His broker suggested I wait for winter to settle in. I cannot extend my self any further. I suppose there is not much else I can do but keep looking, this is not all fun. He has dropped 10-11% from asking price and it was a fair starting price. In this climate I expected more flexibility, I guess you never know the circumstance. Is 15-16% too much to ask? Or did I just answer my own question!? Did I miss anything?

I like your perspective in the second paragraph but I think it is narrow. And your last sentence you were getting back to the facts, by your own statement it is now 12k, not 6! Would you cough that up?! Or is 20k the number?

You say Only 6k is keeping you from the boat you say you want want. That IS the difference between buying and walking, and what you said in your post. Many here have tried to give you varied opinions and examples of how they would handle this, and now you have the benefit of a range of perspectives to handle your situation. I have said repeatedly that my post was NOT directed at you: "NEVER mentioning Russ until in a separate paragraph I said; "Russ must do what he must do and in his defense he did bridge the gap by $6,000 already and got nothing back from the seller.". This was intended to support Russ. I further see NO criticisms of Russ in my post and did not intend for it to be received that way.". These types of responses to folks trying to offer advise, opinion and perspective, even if you do not like what they say, is not helpful to the forum.

Good Luck in the pursuit of a new boat,

MM

 

[HUMPH]

This entire thread has become a bit off topic. Have fun in your search, good luck with the current (or now past) negotiation as well as any future negotiations.

 

[320Bob]

Interesting and sound advice. My goals may be different, for example I have investments that are earning and my goal is to be completely debt free. It is the amount we budgeted, not all or most of the cash on hand. And 6k in cash is a whole lot cheaper than 6k financed, it's never immaterial in my opinion. I agree on owning two boats, it's a timing issue and as I posted earlier I may be keeping her in the family.

I'll provide a little followup advice. Your goal to be debt free is fine if you mean to own you house or condo outright which is something I did a number of years ago. A home is for the most part, ignoring the last 5 years, an appreciating or at worse a stabile value asset. As far as cars and boats go, not the case. I finance or lease both these things in a fashion where the loan payments somewhat mirror the depreciation curve. As I said in my previous post, I can earn more on the cash than I pay in interest. If that were not the case I would pay cash for both. The other caveat is I have more than enough current income to easily handle the monthly payments and I am not at risk of losing my job. So if you meet these criteria, then I suggest you budget an appropriate amount of cash and some debt recognizing the interest on the debt is tax deductible for the type of boat you currently own and for the one you want to purchase provided you are not subject to AMT. If the later, only a portion will be tax deductible as I just discovered to my dismay yesterday when I made a first run at my tax return for this year.

 

[Turtlesboat]

But that's not how a boat loan is setup. If you keep the boat for the length of the loan, then it works, but if you sell the boat say in 4 years, it doesn't work because your not paying 6% in interest, you're paying like 90% interest. At the end of the day you'll have paid off very little other than interest. So you put money at risk in hopes of keeping up with interest, to me that doesn't make sense.

 

[320Bob]

But that's not how a boat loan is setup. If you keep the boat for the length of the loan, then it works, but if you sell the boat say in 4 years, it doesn't work because your not paying 6% in interest, you're paying like 90% interest. At the end of the day you'll have paid off very little other than interest. So you put money at risk in hopes of keeping up with interest, to me that doesn't make sense.

At 6%+ I would agree, but at 3% I wouldn't which is what I pay currently.

 

[SteveRuss]

Just wait him out. There are lots of boats out there for sale. Since you already have what appears to be a really nice boat you have nothing to lose. Buy on your terms or don't buy at all. I was in the market for 1 model/year boat only. I found a perfect one in June two years ago at Marinemax in Delaware but the price was prohibitive and they wanted me to foot the expense of transporting it up to Marinemax in NY. I walked away. I stopped by the Marinemax in NY at the end of the same season (September) and a salesman I got to know prety well tells me "I have just the boat you are looking for" which happens to be the same one I asked about in June. The deal he gives me is 12K less than the original price, transports it to NY for me for free, free winterization, wrap, storage, free recommission and detailing in the spring, half a tank of gas and an hour with their Captain when I pick it up. Was pretty much a no brainer. Glad I waited.

 

[comsnark]

At 6%+ I would agree, but at 3% I wouldn't which is what I pay currently.

3%?

Ah. . . .now your logic makes more sense. Is that 3% including the tax benefit of the "second home"? If not. . .where are you getting that money so cheap?

The loan-risk stuff never makes sense to me. In my view, default on a loan is not really an option.
The concept of being upside down on a collateral based loan is therefore moot. Therefore, to me, a loan is a simple financial transaction based on (1) Can I cough up cash to do something? or (2) Can I get money "cheap enough" to make it worthwhile.

 

[Woody]

Scary, I know....Woody is probably thinking the same thing.....

Actually my feelings were hurt by Russ:smt089, my post really was one of the most constructive you know. I think I'll be ok, don't worry about me, it'll just take a little time is all.

 

[320Bob]

3%?Ah. . . .now your logic makes more sense. Is that 3% including the tax benefit of the "second home"? If not. . .where are you getting that money so cheap?...

I print it just like the Government!:smt043



Just kidding. I posted this six months ago since I thought some folks might be interested. I have a Loan Management Account with Merrill Lynch where stocks are the collateral instead of the boat and currently carries a 3% taxable interest rate which is LIBOR based. I also have a 1.74% auto loan, a 1.04% car lease and a 2.5% Home Equity Line of Credit. Quantitative Easing has been great for the borrower. For the new boat I am about to purchase, I was quoted 4.74% for 20 years two months ago which may be lowered with Boat Show incentives when I close in a few weeks. If I go with the new loan, I will most likely "buy" the interest rate down but making additional principal payments in the first couple years to reduce the total amount of interest paid.