What to buy for Lake MI-opinions wanted

[chrisbo66]

Hello all,

Newby here! I wanted some true Great Laker's opinions on some purchase decisions I am about to make. I have read a few other threads regarding the Sea Ray 380DA (2000 / 2001). I am prepping for my first yacht class purchase (all other boats have been sub-30 footers). I have been around larger boats for years but finally have the means to own my own. I will be using this boat and it will be traveled. I am planning on taking several trips from the Muskegon, MI area to Chicago, Milwaukee and north to Ludington, Traverse and even the straights. I am an active, 41 year old single dad with a 12 year old son and several friends who want to ride along. It will also be my get-away floating cottage for some "me time".

The specific boat I am looking at has about 830 hours on it by a single owner. General survey was done by the dealer and I have to look over the details yet. I was originally looking at something around 34 feet but really liked the room this 380 offered and the price seems right.

Opinions here - is this the boat for me? (I know, totally a matter of opinion but feel free to hit me with them). I know the 454's can be quite thirsty. Would I be better off looking for an older Express Bridge or something with Diesels? I want to get as much boat as I can for the $120k (or less) I want to spend.

Thank you all and see you on the water!!
Chris

 

[dpvandy01]

Hello all,

The specific boat I am looking at has about 830 hours on it by a single owner. General survey was done by the dealer and I have to look over the details yet. I was originally looking at something around 34 feet but really liked the room this 380 offered and the price seems right.
Chris

Get your own survey.... the dealer does not represent your intrests and is not looking out for you... Good luck with everything

 

[sbw1]

Before you spend money on the survey think about whether this boat will go where you want it to go. I don't have a chart handy but Muskegon to Chicago is probably around 130 miles of open water. Could be wrong, but that might well be your safe range under ideal conditions. If the Lake is doing its typical unpredictable thing, you could run out of fuel trying to do that leg as the crow flies. You could run over to Milwaukee to shorten the trip and then do the 60-70 mile run down the Wisconsin side.

The boat will be fairly comfortable to live on as it has the expected amenities. You may want to try out the seats and sofas down below to see how comfortable they are if you are over 6 feet tall. If the boat appears clean, meets your comfort requirements and you don't mind getting about .5-.7 mpg, do a sea trial. Go out on a day when there are three foot seas as you will be spending lots of cruising time in those conditions. If that goes well, pay a surveyor to do a thorough review of the mechainicals and structures.

 

[fwebster]

Dealers generally don't do surveys unless it is a pre-trade surve on a boat they are trading for. It is a bare bones look see at only the serious stuff so they won't get hung with a boat that needs a lot of money spent to make it saleable. For that reason, the dealer survey isn't adequate to protect your interests in the event this get to the contract stage.

Due diligence is the buyers responsibility....certainly collect every bit of history you can about the boat including the dealer's survey, but plan on having both a hull and a mechanical survey done by people you select. Don't worry about the dealer telling you it isn't necessary. Both surveys and a sea trial are all customary for boats this size.

You have already keyed on it, but if your planned use includes trips with legs of 130 miles, then you will quickly tire of the fuel economy of 7.4L gas engines. I'd broaden my search and see if I couldn't find a diesel boat for safety in range if not for the lower cost of operation.

 

[chrisbo66]

You have already keyed on it, but if your planned use includes trips with legs of 130 miles, then you will quickly tire of the fuel economy of 7.4L gas engines. I'd broaden my search and see if I couldn't find a diesel boat for safety in range if not for the lower cost of operation.

The boat will be fairly comfortable to live on as it has the expected amenities. You may want to try out the seats and sofas down below to see how comfortable they are if you are over 6 feet tall. If the boat appears clean, meets your comfort requirements and you don't mind getting about .5-.7 mpg, do a sea trial. Go out on a day when there are three foot seas as you will be spending lots of cruising time in those conditions. If that goes well, pay a surveyor to do a thorough review of the mechainicals and structures.

Excellent info! I will also be sure to get the survey done once things get serious with any particular boat. One question... I have noticed non-marina diesel prices are usually a good bit higher than gasoline. Never have owned diesels, is the increased MPG enough to offset the higher price per gallon?

Thanx everyone!

 

[sbw1]

You're right about the high cost of diesel fuel. That plus the premium you pay for diesel power and the premium you pay for diesel maintenance and the very high repair costs, the decision is made in the Great Lakes for non economic reasons. Handling is the big plus on larger boats with diesels, both docking and in rough water. If you can find a nice boat with 8.1s you get the advantages of torque, plus cheaper maintenance. It's a good gasoline solution for Lake Michigan boaters which is why you see lots of big boats with gas engines in this market. Others will likely say ocean boaters will not buy such a boat, but nice boats in the Great Lakes move quickly when priced properly.

 

[Stray Cat]

Chris - I wasn't certain where the 380 you mentioned is located...however if you want to expand on your options, I have had very good experiences with B&E Marine in MI. City. They are a family owned business for 50 yrs or better. If your interested, I can give you the name of the sales rep. that treated me very well. I stand to gain nothing for providing a referal....its up to you...

 

[330DA]

Chris,
Your 1st post had 2000/2001 380 and $120K. I don't know where the boat is located, but that boat at $120K is way under the market, if it's a freshwater Lake Michigan boat. 830 hours on that boat is a lot for Lake MI. Average hours per year is 40-60. That boat has been run a lot. Maintenance of the powerplants and trannies is important. Compresssion test, oil analysis, and a leak down test should be done on these engines with those hours.

$120K would be an incredible price. Just think that the seller would ask more, if they could. Why is it priced so low? That's what you need to find out. You might have the deal of the century, if everything checks out OK.

By comparison, our friends have a '99 380DA listed for $180K, 400 hours, gas boat. Granted, to me that's too high in this market. Your $120K boat should be looked at carefully.

Make a list of what you will have to put into it and the costs. Will it need canvas, cutlass bearings (830 hrs), electronics, impellers, tune-up, etc.?

Just my .02

 

[sbw1]

Most of the people we cruise with put on a hundred or more hours per year cruising Lake Michigan. As for the listing price being low, it might be but just because someone else listed higher doesn't prove a thing. Most boats don't sell because the sellers list them way too high instead of listing them close to selling prices. Not sure what oil analysis would tell you unless you have data to trend. Fresh oil is going to test pretty good. Oil with 100 plus hours on it would tell you more but provide no trending data.

 

[chrisbo66]

This is all great stuff!! I am so glad I found this forum! :thumbsup:

You're right about the high cost of diesel fuel. That plus the premium you pay for diesel power and the premium you pay for diesel maintenance and the very high repair costs, the decision is made in the Great Lakes for non economic reasons. Handling is the big plus on larger boats with diesels, both docking and in rough water. If you can find a nice boat with 8.1s you get the advantages of torque, plus cheaper maintenance. It's a good gasoline solution for Lake Michigan boaters which is why you see lots of big boats with gas engines in this market.

I have been looking around for some diesel boats but as you probably know already, they are hard to find in the sub-40 foot range. Some newer ones I have found have the 8.1's but they are priced out of my range. It's looking like I'll be running the 7.4's for a while (until I get the upgrade itch in a few years) ;-)

Chris - I wasn't certain where the 380 you mentioned is located...however if you want to expand on your options, I have had very good experiences with B&E Marine in MI. City. They are a family owned business for 50 yrs or better. If your interested, I can give you the name of the sales rep. that treated me very well. I stand to gain nothing for providing a referal....its up to you...

Thanx Stray Cat... I will surely keep that in mind. I have a pretty good guy so far. He has helped me a lot and continues to provide good service. I really want this to be a fun experience. After waiting most of my life for this, it's something to savor.

Also, (330DA & sbw1) I have a line on 2 of them currently. One is a 2000 the other is a 2001. One has a good bit less hours than the other so I am concentrating on that one for now. Both are priced about the same with slight differences in options. I am also trying to take advantage of boat show season and the trades the dealers may be taking in. Hoping that will inspire some negotiations between us. I will keep you all posted!

Thanx again everyone and I can't wait for Spring. I look forward to meeting some of you on the water!

 

[330DA]

Chris,
I'm a little confused. You wrote that you want to spend $120K or less. Do you mean that the $120K is in addition to the $ for a trade that you have, or your down payment? I checked boatraderonline and there were 7-2000/01 380s with a range of $165-212K. All 7 were from WI, IL, MI, or OH.

It's true that an oil analysis is best over several times to see a trend. It should not be on fresh oil because your won't see anything. They are, however, cheap ($20 each) and can give you some insight if the contaminant readings are way off normal in oil that has been used some.

We are at the lower end of the Lake MI. I guess there are places/ports to go to which are not as far apart as ports up north. I'll stick with my 40-60 hours for us down at the bottom. Those numbers came from a Sea Ray dealer when we bought our prior boat. For my experience I haven't gone over 50-60hrs in the last 6 years. Going over 100 down here is more rare from the boaters I know. It's not bad going over 100, in fact I'm a little jealous. Wish i could have that much time on the water! I was just trying to point out that those engines (830hrs) are closer to overhaul time than a well kept 400 hr boat. That would be big money to spend after owning the boat a few years. Good Luck.

 

[chrisbo66]

I'm a little confused. You wrote that you want to spend $120K or less. Do you mean that the $120K is in addition to the $ for a trade that you have, or your down payment? I checked boatraderonline and there were 7-2000/01 380s with a range of $165-212K. All 7 were from WI, IL, MI, or OH.

No, the $120k range was a "hopeful" negotiated price for either of 2 boats (no trade-in). A 2001 with 800+ hours that was offered to me at "less than $138k" because they were competing with the other 380DA (a 2000 model) that was advertised at $139k but could be had for around $126k (I suspect) and only had 300+ hours. I've been in the 2001 (though climbing through snow) and it's a native Michigan boat. I found out the 2000 with only 300+ hours, was originally from FL (salt water boat). It's also been described as "a little dirty right now". We're skeptical but still looking into both of these.

We are at the lower end of the Lake MI. I guess there are places/ports to go to which are not as far apart as ports up north. I'll stick with my 40-60 hours for us down at the bottom. Those numbers came from a Sea Ray dealer when we bought our prior boat. For my experience I haven't gone over 50-60hrs in the last 6 years. Going over 100 down here is more rare from the boaters I know. It's not bad going over 100, in fact I'm a little jealous. Wish i could have that much time on the water! I was just trying to point out that those engines (830hrs) are closer to overhaul time than a well kept 400 hr boat. That would be big money to spend after owning the boat a few years. Good Luck.

Indeed! This is why I am so cautious with a boat that has 800+ hours on it. From what I understand, when well taken care of, the 7.4's can get 1200-1500 hours before needing overhauls. When they are NOT well taken care of, I could be in for some maintenance costs in the real near future.

 

[sbw1]

[QUOTE)... I am so cautious with a boat that has 800+ hours on it. From what I understand, when well taken care of, the 7.4's can get 1200-1500 hours before needing overhauls. When they are NOT well taken care of, I could be in for some maintenance costs in the real near future.[/QUOTE]

The often quoted life of 1500 hours prior to overhauls is very low for a boat that has been properly cared for. I put 3500 hours on my first 350 cu inch merc and it continued to run very strong for the next owner for several years despite his neglect of the entire boat. My next boat had the same engines and lasted close to 3000 inspite of being run a little more agressively than I did. My last boat had around 1200 hours on 454s and used no oil and had perfect compression. Don't know where it is today.There are lots of SRs and Silvertons around here with high hour 454s. A friend's has over 2000 hours and has had no engine work other than tune ups. It has its original risers and manifolds and is still going strong. He is the original owner. You do run the risk with a used boat of buying one where the prior owner(s) chinced on preventive maintenance. Unless they were really hard on things, I would expect even those engines to last more than 1500 hours. It's the no maintenance "balls to the wall" guys that ruin engines. The 454 is very durable.

 

[boltman]

Chriss, How are ya....?
I'm from the swarts Creek area And we trailer our 320, If I'd get even the slighest bigger boat, I'd get Deisels...The burn rate and the power are much better,with the Deisels.
In Lake michigan, thats the only place we take our Boat too, you will find a marina about ever 10 miles while traveling up the coast and most off of them carry deisel and Gas, so there's not a likelyhood of ever running out,but going across the lake is a different story...A boat in the 38 to 40 foot range should have deisels and make sure you have a genie on board also., You'll use it like no other... There are soooo many used boats on the market, its a buyers world out there Chriss, and Do make sure you get your own survey, Never never trust the dealership, they are out to make money on you not help you out...

 

[chrisbo66]

Chriss, How are ya....?
I'm from the swarts Creek area And we trailer our 320, If I'd get even the slighest bigger boat, I'd get Deisels...The burn rate and the power are much better,with the Deisels.
In Lake michigan, thats the only place we take our Boat too, you will find a marina about ever 10 miles while traveling up the coast and most off of them carry deisel and Gas, so there's not a likelyhood of ever running out,but going across the lake is a different story...A boat in the 38 to 40 foot range should have deisels and make sure you have a genie on board also., You'll use it like no other... There are soooo many used boats on the market, its a buyers world out there Chriss, and Do make sure you get your own survey, Never never trust the dealership, they are out to make money on you not help you out...

Hi Boltman,
I have looked for Diesels in that same range of boat but they are hard to find. From what I have seen/heard, they are typically at least $10k more... Given the higher price per gallon, higher maintenence cost and higher purchase price, I find there is only a marginal cost advantage (if any) and that isn't seen until down the road when the higher purchase price gets offset by the increased MPG. The main advantage is the range. If I could find a 370/380 for less than $140k, I would be very interested.... but that doesn't seem likely. I'll keep looking though.

I am beginning to think I should go a little smaller (say a 340). I really like the layout of the 370/380 but I might be able to find a better deal on a 340 and it would burn a little less fuel. So many choices.

 

[330DA]

Chris,
Diesels will add much more than $10K in the same boat. The 370 DA model was built until the 1999 model year. The 380 replaced it. There are a few on your side of the lake to look at. Those would be more in your price range. We bought ours last year. The design goes from '95-'99. The 95-96 years had teal or blue carpeting/canvas and trim. '97 and up had the neutral tan as the primary colors.

I can give you a reference for a surveyor who knows Sea Rays, if you are interested.

 

[chrisbo66]

I can give you a reference for a surveyor who knows Sea Rays, if you are interested.

Yes, I would appreciate that. I will take whatever information I can get.

On a side note, looking at some 340's as well. I found one with the 6.2L motor. What are the fuel consumption differences with this motor option. I believe it is actually 10 more HP correct?

 

[boltman]

Chriss, If you go down to a 340 I'd certainly look for 8.1's or 496's I big block is best in that boat, and the 340 was and is a great Hull for sure, either one you'll enjoy, the 340 won't burn as much feul though.

Did i mention we LOVE our 320...... It's just the right size... although I already have 8-12 foot ItIS.... I'm keeping it under control with a lot of good drugs....It's called NO MONEY......

 

[chrisbo66]

Chriss, If you go down to a 340 I'd certainly look for 8.1's or 496's I big block is best in that boat, and the 340 was and is a great Hull for sure, either one you'll enjoy, the 340 won't burn as much feul though.

Thanks Boltman. I know the 6.2L smallblock is a longer stroke 5.7L but it is also supposed to have 10 more HP than the 7.4.... though I am not sure about the touque. I was wondering if the 400 lb weight savings and possible lower fuel consumption was real.

Did i mention we LOVE our 320...... It's just the right size... although I already have 8-12 foot ItIS.... I'm keeping it under control with a lot of good drugs....It's called NO MONEY......

I feel your pain. I have been without a boat much of my life and when I did have one, it was always smaller runabouts or low 20's cuddy cabins. I have hade 30+ foot-itis for about 30 years - LOL. Hopfully, this will be my chance to cure myself, or at least upgrade to having 40foot-envy soon. :grin:

 

[330DA]

Chris,
You have a PM about the surveyor.