Water between hull and deck: How concerned should I be?

If Sea Ray says something like "lets see if the new patch holds" then you need to come to some type of understanding with them on how you will diagnose the problem if it occurs again.

My thinking is you first need to establish that the intrusion is indeed comming from the inside of the boat. So if they have to open up the hull again to dry out the fiberglass, then before they close it up you might consider putting water inside the hull to see if the matting gets wet again. That may not tell you where the leak is but it should prove whether it is comming from the inside or not.
 
Dennis,

If you are concerned about water intrustion in other areas, why not have the dealer run a moisture meter over the entire hull?
 
I had thought of the moisture meter. I was talking to my marina guy about that today. I will also ask Sea Ray to send someone out with a moisture meter and again in a year or two. I don't think my local SR dealer has one so I'd have to hire a surveyor to have it done myself.

Once the expanding foam gets wet inside the hull, it is not going to dry out, I am told, at least not for a long time. You can't drill a bunch of 3/8" holes in the boat to dry it out because the hull is full of foam. Plus, I'm sure it's going to get wet again and again until the root cause is fixed. You can guess what that foretells.

The Admiral keeps asking "Could our boat sink?". I have to establish her confidence in the boat as well as mine or I'll have a boat I can neither use, sell or afford to store.

I spoke with Sea Ray today and they will "Look into it" and get back with me. A step at a time. I still assume they'll take good car of me as they have other customers in establishing and keeping their good reputation.

Dennis
 
Dennis,

I don't share your optimism. I'm with Todd. I'd want full replacement for a number of reasons. By the way, that wet flotation foam is a problem as it will rot any wood it comes into contact with (I hope sea ray did not use wood for the deck and stringers), and it loses its strength.

I'd already be talking to an attorney, documenting everything (talk to sea ray and the dealer through email), and getting the hull numbers of the other afflicted vessels at your dealer.
 
SeaRide said:
My guess is that SR will take care of the problem to Dennis's satisfaction.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that SeaRay will address the issue repair it as needed or necessary, but if I had purchased a brand new boat expecting no major defects and had spent a ton of money on, I would want to have a new boat without defects. If the starter (or some other replaceable part/component went out (without abusive conditions) within the warranty period, it's reasonable to expect it to be fixed/replaced. Now when a major defect arises such as a bad block on an engine, cracked holding or fuel tank, ETC; I would expect them to be warranted and repaired within reason. Here's where I think the Lemon factor comes into play. When a poorly layed up hull, major stringer or structural element comes into play, the original owner shouldn't bear the accelerated depreciated value of such a defect. I think the factory should issue a new product to the customer, once again assumed to be free from defects. Then, the Factory (or dealer) can repair the original boat to a safe and viable condition and sell at a discount to a buyer that is aware they are receiving a “REFURBISHED UNIT†Much like buying a video camera that has a “REFURBISHED UNIT†sticker on it. This way the new buyer knows it had an issue, accept that it has been satisfactorily repaired, maybe even, in many cases, includes a new one year warranty and the factory can recoup some of the costs of this defective situation, without either customer having a bad taste in their mouth. SeaRay Satisfaction rating stays high, both customers are happy and potential repeat buyers :thumbsup:
 
I cannot speak for Dennis. Only he can do so. Please note that I stated that it would be my guess/assumption that SR would take care of the problem which could be addressed in a number of ways. My previous post did not mention the word repair.
 
I might very well be in the mode of demanding a new boat sooner rather than later. But for now, let's see what Sea Ray comes up with. If it comes to a lawsuit it will be as it always is, a battle of one side's expert versus the others. I don't know for sure that my hull is ruined even tho' a lot of people are telling me so. No certified boat surveyor has issued a professional opinion.

My damages at this point are associated with a severely lowered resale value. Compared to the value of the boat a week ago, is it 50%? More? Less? What will Sea Ray do about that?

If the hull is prone to unpedictable catastrophic failure, if it has moisture intrusion throughout the hull and stringers, then it is unsuited for its intended purpose: boating. That's "new boat territory" for sure. We're not there yet; we're just guessing. So far, it's a warranty issue. Sure there are implied warranties along with the stated warranties. Next week I'll do legal researche for court precedents in Tennessee. Chances are there is a hull failure case or two.

I am just not yet at the point of sicking my lawyer on Sea Ray. Let them earn the good reputation that we all seem to agree that they have.

This is the way I do business in business. This is the way I do business in life.

Dennis
 
not sure SeaRay would do a full bat replacement; but I do seem to remember a post on either SRO or somewhere in the WEB where they did do a Hull replacement on another boat.

Basicly send the boat back to the factory seperate the deck and hull, transplant all your components to a new hull and sandwhich the two halves back together agian.

Like i said I'm not sure where I saw this, but i belive it's been done before.
 
I'm aware that Proline has replaced hulls as has Mastercraft. I too seem to recall that post about a hull being replaced. I don't recall whether it was a Sea Ray or not, but probably so. So, again, let's see what they can do before we go ballistic with Katz, Katz, Rosenbaum and Katz.

Dennis
 
Dennis,

Don't get the cart before the horse. Right now you have a warranty problem and Sea Ray has a customer satisfaction problem, and nothing more. Give Sea Ray and your dealer a chance to solve them both.

You are completely wrong in one statement in your previous post. If this comes to a lawsuit, it will most definitely not be your expert witnesses vs. theirs. It will be your money vs. Brunswick Corporation's money and I don't like those odds.

I do know a couple of thins that may help you, however. First, as long as you are reasonable and professional, Sea Ray will do what is right and will try to solve this in a way that satisfies you. Second, if you threaten or mention bringing lawyers into this, Sea Ray's personnel are not allowed to continue working directly with you for a solution and they will refer all your calls, letters, and other communications to their legal department which means it will take nearly forever to get a resolution.

Try to be patient and give them a chance.................
 
Frank, you misunderstood me. That's exactly what I'm saying to those who are encouraging me to either demand a new boat or go to the courts. Be patient. Give Sea Ray a chance to live up their reputation and that part of their stated mission that says they intend to have satisfied customers. No way am I anywhere near calling my lawyer. I've told Sea Ray I'll work with them to find the root cause. They're an ISO 9000 company so they know how to do root cause analysis. They may want to get the boat back to the factory so they can take it apart as part of that analysis. I'll work with them on that. They warrant that they'll fix a hull with a factory defect that makes the boat unsafe or unfit for use. They'll live up to their legal obligation at the very least. I've danced the dance enough to know that money is what buys good experts and good lawyers. A battle of experts is a battle of war chests and I'm not so naieve to think that my war chest is bigger than theirs. But, you don't know my expert, either.

At any rate, it's not me versus them at this point. It's me working with them to find the root cause and fix it and find a way for me to have a reliable boat for years to come and one that hasn't lost 50% of its resale value.

Dennis
 
Dennis,

I really hope you and Frank are right. I think you are correct to expect Sea Ray to make this right, but assuming they will might be dangerous. As I said before, document everything, talk to a good attorney (Sea Ray does not need to know you have legal representation), and get the hull numbers of the other boats with the same problem.

Money has won plenty of legal battles, but you know, principle has won plenty as well.

I sincerely hope you don't have to go that far, but I would be preparing right now, just in case.
 
well from everything I've heard and seen, Sea Ray has done right. The guy that had spider cracks got a whole new top half of a boat with the new layout and seats ect. That's why I mentioned reading that thread, not because of the issue, but because of how it was resolved by sea ray.
 
I re-read this whole thread and have another comment or two.

Your initial post described cracks at the chine not the keel or stem which it where it seems they are. Your dealer's fiberglass guy should be able to fix a spot there where you can't see it. If you can see the repair, they need to re-do the gelcoat work or you do indeed have a situation where you have lost value.

If the repair is properly done, that all you've had is a warranty repair that shouldn't have any effect on the value of your boat.

In certain cases like this where a dealer may be overwhelmed with warranty and other fiberglass repair work or where a competency issue may arise, Sea Ray does have a group of guys who travel to dealers to do fiberglass repairs. Sometimes they are contractors who work only for Sea Ray and other times they are company employees. The ones I've met were young but were absolute magicians at what they could do and how fast they could get major repairs done.

One boat with a delamination can occur.....2 boats with chine cracks at different spots can occur, but 2 boats of the same model with hull delamination in the same spot points to a systemic problem with design or manufacturing methodology. Try to get the HIN# and the production # off the transom of the other boat and, just for grins, see how far apart they were in production. We can help you decode the #'s.

As long as your dealer suggested it and you do not go around them, you are in a better, stronger position if you are talking with and applying subtle pressure to Sea Ray customer service directly. Again, calm, polite and courteous is what works. You know, " I love my boat, and I bought Sea Ray because of your reputation for quality, but at this point I am very dissapointed with the results we've had." Follow up regularly, but don't be a pest. Be persistant with your questions and don't quit until you get quality answers. I agree with you....there is a cause for this and you shouldn't stop until Sea Ray tells you what it is. If they won't or can't and the boat looks good to you, then there are other approaches to take with Sea Ray......and I can and will help you with those when/if the time comes.

I think you understand the process, but there is a lot of mention of legal representation, involving lawyers, etc in the latter posts in this thread.......just understand that you are doing this the right way and involving a lawyer now will only slow or stop your progress.
 
Dennis, I'll start this post by saying you must be a company exec. or very reasonable person. Same as Frank.
I'll tell you that I've owned 15 or 16 boats, (dosen't make me an expert, just experienced.) various brands, and to me they are all the same. It's always about "their" bottom line and what can "you" prove. I say you prove because, you'll figure that out when your dealer stops dealing with you. They have to maintain a proffessional relationship with the parent company. Never was there a time, that a cool head worked for me. I wish I could be that person but I'm not. I've tried to be that person, but it doesn't work for me. That said, I have issues with my "new" boat that are getting shrugged off, for now. (I'm trying to be reasonable) Frank says gel coat techs are magicans and a patch should not be able to be seen, well thoes guys didn't do the work on my boat. And the only reason I caught the issue is I have been under my boat adjusting my trailer bunks for the best fit. Whole nother issue. Anyways found a patch, that wasn't disclosed to me at the point of sale. It gets treated like, well you didn't catch it when you bought the boat so why do you have a problem now. Anyways what I'm trying to say is protect your self. Sea Ray is building a case to protect themselves against you now, I guarantee it. That is what that folder full of photos and letters are. Don't get caught behind the ball. It's to hard to catch up.
I'll say this because, I owned a bow rider that did basically the same thing. After all was said and done, the company that I was "working with" finally said sue us, I tried. My lawyer said we can win but it will be a principal win because you'll spend as much in legal fees as you'll win. He was right.
So, all that said. I don't mess around, I just do the "red neck" thing and go for the juggler right off. Cut them no slack is what I say. Heck my dealership people shake their heads when I walk in the room. But they allways ask what do you need Mike.
 
Islandhopper00,

You are painting with a brush so big that it makes us think the whole industry is the same color. I'm sorry you've had problems with other brands, but to treat your Sea Ray dealer like you are going for the throat just because you felt it necessary to do that before with other brands isn't the best way to get results with the normal Sea Ray dealer. If it takes that to get your dealer to react, then your experience is less than average.

You are correct in that at some level it's about making money, but the powers that be at Sea Ray realize that you sell boats to and thru satisfied customers. I know some of the personnel in Customer Service that you talk to when you call 1-800-SRBOATS and I can assure you that they are not focused on profit.

Customer Service is not a profit center. The only way money enters the picture on a warranty claim is to be sure the dealer does not bill the factory 16 hours for a 4 hour repair. The goal is to make you a satisfied customer and to fix your defect at a reasonable non-inflated cost.

The reason for the photos and video is not "to build a case against you" but rather to understand the problem and to have a check and balance on the warranty claim submitted by the dealer. Sea Ray customer service folks are who you talk to, but that are only the communication link with the factory. Those photos are also used show the manufacturing and engineering personnel your problem in order to help you get the right solution the first time.

As far as gelcoat repair quality, go back and re-read what I said. I did not say nor mean to infer that all gelcoat technicians were magicians. This is what I said:

"Sea Ray does have a group of guys who travel to dealers to do fiberglass repairs. Sometimes they are contractors who work only for Sea Ray and other times they are company employees. The ones I've met were young but were absolute magicians at what they could do and how fast they could get major repairs done. "

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and are free " to do the "red neck" thing and go for the juggler right off. " , and cut them no slack. If that works for you at your dealer, great. I just find it works better when you need the dealer for something to not have the parts, service, and technicians say: "Uh oh, here he comes again, wonder what he's going to ream my #@$ about this time..... let me go find something else to be doing" when you go in the door. It works better at so many levels within the Sea Ray system to make an effort to be polite and courteous and make friends out of the guys you may need to ask for help in the future.
 
Frank, I respect what you are saying, but do not agree with you. I paint with a large brush because of my experience with this industry. That's why the ISO 9000 standard came about. To increase quality from the first product off the line to the last. I came to Sea Ray because every one seemed so sold on their boats, and quality and customer satisfaction were supposed to be top shelf. I call a spade a spade. My boat is exactly what I bought, a left over, fixed up, patched together, never should have been put back on the market as a "new" boat. I have no proof but I bet it's a boat that someone else bought, or had troubles with and now I have it. Now, Dennis has a boat that is substandard and everyone seems to think is a good idea to fix up and pass off to some other poor sucker. My point exactly. My opinion is if a company has any integerity "they" would fix his problem to the extent necessary and/or destroy the hull as bad and eat "THEIR" mistake. Or, market the offending hulls as "Blems" at a discounted price.....Oh, you don't think Sea Ray would like to associate itself with factory seconds? My thoughts exactly. Maybe that's why they hide the issues. "They" could use these examples as an opportunity to show "their" customer base that "they" do stand behind your product and implied warranty. Not wiggle around small print etc. Dennis and myself bought a first quality brand new, should be no issues boat. Over paid for it to. I make my payments every month like I said I would, Sea Ray did not deliver a boat free of defects like they said they would. Integerity. Hence the name of my boat, Frayed Knot. meaning, If asked would I buy another Sea Ray, at this point I'm "Frayed Knot". I have to live with my mistake because I'm at this point to the end of my available rec. funds. and actual value of my boat is way below my loan balance. About $15 to 18K below. I also heard so much about resale value and I've had this boat 8 months!
I appologize for being combative, I respect your knowlege of boats and the boating industry. I believe your spot on most times and appreciate a person such as yourself. I think the industry would be better off if they hired a person such as yourself to point out to"them" the obvious difficiencies.
I work in the Nuclear Power industry, how would you feel if I perfomed my work to to the standards of the boat industry. That would be scary. I work with a government program watching over my shoulder (NRC= Nuclear Regulatory Commission) and they make sure I do a safe and proper job. That protects everyone. It's always the bottom line that makes companies cut corners. Sea Ray overcharges for the same boat in a given size range. I thought that was because of their cost averages per unit. Guess I was wrong. Apparantly the overage goes into some execs. pocket.
Notice I didn't use any Emoticons.
 
I honestly don't know where you could be getting your information.

If you bought a left over boat then it wasn't put back on t he market, it was never off the market, it was always for sale. It may have been a dealer's demo or what usually happens is a boat doesn't sell and gets a bunch of sea trials and collects some nicks and scratches in the months it sits around the dealers lot.

You say you bet your boat was sold to someone else who had problems with it and then returned it and it was re-sold to you. Not very likely......Did you buy it with a manufacturer's statement of origin (MSO)? If you did, it could not have been previously sold. If you bought it with a transferred title, then it was a used boat. There isn't any gray here...either it was new or used.

We don't know if Dennis has a substandard boat or not. All we know is that he has a problem that he is working with his dealer and Sea Ray to get corrected. Nobody has said or advocated that he get it fixed and pass it on to someone else, certainly not the dealer or Sea Ray who seem to be diligent about getting the boat repaired for Dennis.

You say: "My opinion is if a company has any integerity "they" would fix his problem to the extent necessary........" Isn't that exactly what Sea Ray is doing in Dennis's case? As far as destroying the hull and eating their mistake.......who knows the eventual outcome, but advocating destroying a hull for a 2" wide wet spot in the keel is premature and over-kill.

Factory seconds? Has anyone ever seen one? I haven't and I have about 25 years experience in owning Sea Rays and keeping my boats at a large Sea Ray dealership. Honestly, I don't think there are seconds because the average prices of the boats are so high that replacing a hull, liner or deck cap at the point a serious defect is spotted is a far cheaper alternative to selling the boats as seconds.

I don't know your experience, but how are "they" hiding behind the issues in Dennis's case? How are they wiggling around small print? This seems simple to me.....the owner is having a problem and his dealer and Sea Ray are working to fix his boat. Defects do happen since this isn't a perfect world and the boats are built by hand. What more can the manufacturer do than to offer a long term structural warranty then repair the few boats that do have defects?

These are production boats, not nuclear reactors and the 2 just are not comparable. If Sea Rays were made by neurosurgeons (another "no-mistakes allowed" business) to nuclear industry standards, how expensive do you think a boat would be? CSR may have 15 instead of 1500 members.

I honestly cannot address the pricing comment other than to say I think the current retail prices are ridiculously high. I know Sea Ray does a lot more product engineering and development that other brands, but even so, the prices seem to be driven more by demand than being a product of cost. As long as buyers keep writing checks, the prices will remain high.

And, thanks for not including emoticons.......I'd probably have blown a head gasket on this one if it had been littered with those little yellow bouncing faces!
 
My information comes from the school of hard knocks. Ever meet someone that crap just always happens to? Hi, my name is Mike, nice to meet you. I try to educate myself and prepare myself to avoid situations but.....
You say there is no gray area in the resell as new market, I disagree. I have bought a boat new, disasatified with it I turned it in, (for a replacement) and later seen that boat in use. (I marked it) When I spoke to the new owner I asked if he bought new. Of course. I didn't tell the new owner, why screw up his experience. If he didn't care or notice the things I did then it's on him. Grey area indeed.
I know of a local car dealership that reconditioned totaled vehicles as new and selles them as such. That dealership was caught and closed down, they reopened once again and are back to business. I'm trying to be vague to protect the innocent. (DaveS probably knows what dealership I speak of.)
As far as Dennis's boat is concerned we'll see. Don't you think he should be compensated for the usage time he has lost due to Sea Rays inability to construct a problem free hull. There is a second hull on a rack that has the same problem. I'll bet he's out of pocket also for lost work time and general expenses. Everyone seems to chock this up to boat ownership. I say make "them" responsible for their shortcommings and that's how to effect change. It doesn't have to be like that.
A darn good engineer once told me, "anybody can build a bridge, it takes a darn good engineer to build a bridge that can just barely do it's job." Now why would you want to build a bridge to barely do it's job. Cost. I don't know that's what the problem is with Dennis's boat but we'll see. I don't think he'll ever get a straight answer.
I agree with you that if boats were built to nuclear standards they would cost to much. But, doesn't that prove they "could be" built with out issues though? I know there is a balance, and that's when I say a companys integerity comes in to play. They know they have issues. A good responsible company would stand up to their mistakes and not pass them on to their consumer.
I guess my answer is to buy the Grady White or the Hatteras and spend the money, but I'd bet they have their issues as well. Then I would be pulling my hair out.
Frank, once again I admire your positive outlook and wish I could be more like that. You clearly have had much better luck with the boating industry than I have. I'd quit boating but I grew up with it and it's the only way I can get to my beloved islands.

I'll end on a positive note, my dirt bike and four wheeler are made by Kawasaki, never had a problem and I've tried to kill both of them. Can't believe the torture these machines can take. Even dumping them in water, pull the spark plugs roll the motor over a couple of times, put the plugs back in and away you go. Now that's engineering, Over engineering!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
113,199
Messages
1,428,408
Members
61,107
Latest member
Hoffa509
Back
Top