Vacuflush pump won stop running

[Southpaw26]

My Vacuflush pump on my 1984 Sea Ray 360 Aft will not stop running. The Vacuum pump and duck bills are less than 2 years old. Here is what I have found so far. When I go back to the rear vacuum tank and manually press the switch in the pump turns off. The rear head holds water over night. So here is my question. If the rear vacuum tank switch turns off the pump when pressed does that for sure mean my problem is at the rear head? And is there a way to test the switch itself as they are pretty expensive to just buy one and see if that fixes it. Also I had read that if you push the switch up with your foot instead of down it is suppose to add water and not flush. My system does not seem to have this function, is this normal? Any advice or knowledge is greatly appreciated.

 

[hottoddie]

You say that when you press the switch it turns off the pump and the bowl holds water over night. Does the pump also stay off over night indicating that the system is tight? How well does the toilet flush? If it flushes as well as the other vacuflush then the switch could be the problem. 2 years ago I had a similar problem and rather than replace the switch I put a thin washer under each of the 2 mounting flanges where the switch attaches to the tank. Now the pump runs for 35-40 seconds, shuts off and the system has great vacuum even after a week of no use.

If the pump runs during the night then you have a loss of vacuum somewhere else. 2 year old duckbills can still fail or get something stuck in them so don't rule them out as a cause of lost vacuum. Vacuum can also be lost at the bowl valve shaft or the base gasket.

 

[Rockwood_Joe]

I recognize your tag from Boat Design forums. Is this the same southpaw asking about issues with the 360AC? Read my post, as the original installation is highly flawed (after describing it to vacuflush engineers) and performs poorly. As I had mentioned, each toilet needs its own pump to pull vacuum, not tee'd together like Sea Ray did. Vacuflush also insists on the pump being as close to the vacuum tank as possible, and less than 4 feet length of hose between. On the 360 the pump is probably up near the genny, and has to draw vacuum through the tank and 12 feet of hose. A properly installed system should only take 8-9 seconds to recharge (that's what I've clocked mine at) versus hottoddie's 35-40 seconds. These are all vacuflush specs I got from their engineer. However, if you want to keep the original system going as-is, it's probably that switch. With the switch protective cover off, you should see the switch being pulled in by the vacuum (ever so slowly). It's a simple reliable system when it's all functioning. If the diaphragm in the switch is torn or broken, you'll need a new switch or switch rebuild kit. I've made the assumption here that the toilet and the pump are working perfectly. Sadly, when I bought my used 360 AC, it cost me over $2k in parts alone to get it up vacuflush specs. It works awesome now, but I had to pay for Sea Ray's prior cost cutting measures. Phone vacuflush, I've found they can be very helpful.

 

[mistercomputerman]

I recognize your tag from Boat Design forums. Is this the same southpaw asking about issues with the 360AC? Read my post, as the original installation is highly flawed (after describing it to vacuflush engineers) and performs poorly. As I had mentioned, each toilet needs its own pump to pull vacuum, not tee'd together like Sea Ray did. Vacuflush also insists on the pump being as close to the vacuum tank as possible, and less than 4 feet length of hose between. On the 360 the pump is probably up near the genny, and has to draw vacuum through the tank and 12 feet of hose. A properly installed system should only take 8-9 seconds to recharge (that's what I've clocked mine at) versus hottoddie's 35-40 seconds. These are all vacuflush specs I got from their engineer. However, if you want to keep the original system going as-is, it's probably that switch. With the switch protective cover off, you should see the switch being pulled in by the vacuum (ever so slowly). It's a simple reliable system when it's all functioning. If the diaphragm in the switch is torn or broken, you'll need a new switch or switch rebuild kit. I've made the assumption here that the toilet and the pump are working perfectly. Sadly, when I bought my used 360 AC, it cost me over $2k in parts alone to get it up vacuflush specs. It works awesome now, but I had to pay for Sea Ray's prior cost cutting measures. Phone vacuflush, I've found they can be very helpful.

Obviously, this is a typographical error or you have misunderstood whomever you spoke with. Giving out erroneous information on your first post is not a good way to start off your relationship with the forum members.

Also, I am curious how you managed to mount a vacuum pump within your "4 feet length of hose" spec on a 360AC?

Additionally, the poster purports to own a Cruisers, so your comments about him owning a Sea Ray seem a bit misdirected.

 

[Southpaw26]

Thanks for the info guys. I am for now a two boat owner. I own the Cruisers and a just picked up the Sea Ray. I did not know they had a switch rebuild kit. Where can you get one of these? And as for placing the washers under the mount. I am not really sure exactly what you mean. How does this help? what do the washers do?

 

[hottoddie]

As the vacuum builds in the tank there is a rod that actuates the switch. The more vacuum the more the rod retracts toward the tank until the switch is activated. By placing very thin washers under the foot of the switch the switch will turn off the pumps a little sooner. However, by turning off the switch sooner you may or may not get enough vacuum in the system for it to flush properly. All you can do is try it and see if it works in your case. In my case I get more than enough vacuum with the washers under the mounting foot of the switch. Good luck.

 

[Southpaw26]

How about lifting the foot pedal to add water? Is this suppose to be a feature?

 

[Rockwood_Joe]

How about lifting the foot pedal to add water? Is this suppose to be a feature?

Yes, you should be able to fill the bowl by lifting up. The pedal cam releases water while flushing up or down. To the other poster that feels my advice is poor, I apologize and don't wish to over infer. However, the original setup whereby one pump creates vacuum for both toilets is silly. Every time you flush just one toilet it releases vacuum in both toilets, and you end up recharging both, extra energy and wear, long cycle times and poor performance. On the 360 ac it is possible to mount vacuum pumps close the vacuum tanks, I can send pics. I have copies of the factory installation manuals. The parts diagram shows that the vacuum switch is rebuildable, as the rubber diaphragm is listed as a cause of leakage due to cracks etc. Hope this helps, as things get pricey with dometic stuff.

 

[Rockwood_Joe]

Dometic instructed me that as short as possible is best, ideally no more than 4ft. Your diagram is not representative of the original 1980s install that used a separate vacuum pump and tank versus their current system where the pump is combined with the vacuum tank. In the diagram it shows the distance between the pump and the tank at 0 feet(they're mounted together). On the 360 ac retrofitting a new style pump and tank combo really isn't feasible, but adding a second vacuum pump for the aft near the shaft log is. The newer system where the vacuum generator is just one module is better than the old style that was a separate pump, tank, and switch. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Rockwood_Joe]

Obviously, this is a typographical error or you have misunderstood whomever you spoke with. Giving out erroneous information on your first post is not a good way to start off your relationship with the forum members.

Also, I am curious how you managed to mount a vacuum pump within your "4 feet length of hose" spec on a 360AC?

Additionally, the poster purports to own a Cruisers, so your comments about him owning a Sea Ray seem a bit misdirected.


View attachment 30624

My apologies, I did not wish to offend. I don't believe my information is erroneous either, as the diagram you reference is incorrect regarding to installation of vacuflush systems of the 360 AC. The 50ft and 20ft are still applicable, but what I am referring to is the distance between the vacuum pump input and vacuum tank output. The diagram illustrates them together as a module, with essentially 0 ft of distance (versus my quoted 4ft). Today, the pump is mounted on the vacuum tank, and is one self contained easy to install unit. On older installations, the pump was mounted separately off the vacuum tank. You basically built your own vacuum module, consequently more leak paths, etc. I wasn't referring to the distance from the toilet or to the holding tank, but the internal distance between the vacuum pump and vacuum tank, which in the diagram is not shown and assumed to be zero feet. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[mistercomputerman]

My apologies, I did not wish to offend. I don't believe my information is erroneous either, as the diagram you reference is incorrect regarding to installation of vacuflush systems of the 360 AC. The 50ft and 20ft are still applicable, but what I am referring to is the distance between the vacuum pump input and vacuum tank output. The diagram illustrates them together as a module, with essentially 0 ft of distance (versus my quoted 4ft). Today, the pump is mounted on the vacuum tank, and is one self contained easy to install unit. On older installations, the pump was mounted separately off the vacuum tank. You basically built your own vacuum module, consequently more leak paths, etc. I wasn't referring to the distance from the toilet or to the holding tank, but the internal distance between the vacuum pump and vacuum tank, which in the diagram is not shown and assumed to be zero feet. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No need to apologize. I don't think many of us (at least not me) are familiar with the 33 year old setup that you describe. Most of us seem to have the design which I posted, hence the confusion.

Everyone here learns something from the others, as evidenced by this thread.

For what it is worth-

This is a forum of generally like minded folks, with a few smart-a$$e$ thrown in for good measure and entertainment, who are generally pretty fiercely loyal to the brand. As with any business, Sea Ray has improved their methods and processes over the past years and I seem to find that the boats today are manufactured to standards acceptable to the Vendors of the products used by Sea Ray.

Your mileage may vary...

 

[Southpaw26]

Ok so here is where I am at on this right now. I am now starting to think it is my forward head. And here is why. Now the forward head does not seem to be holding water. When the pump builds up vacuum I can hear it hissing a little when the water level is down. But what is strange to me is that it is the switch on the rear vacuum tank that is triggering the pump to come on. So I guess my question is this. Can the front head having a vacuum leak cause the rear vacuum tank to trigger its switch and cause the pump to activate? Also do I just rebuild the parts in the head on the front or do I try cleaning the rubber and applying some lube on it which I have seen people discuss when using the search to try and figure this thing out.

 

[electricaldoctor]

try cleaning the rubber and applying some lube on it

 

[Southpaw26]

Ok I will give that a try. Am I correct in the fact that you use KY lube? Also is it possible for the rear head to activate the vacuum switch on the rear tank?

 

[tdschafer]

Ok I will give that a try. Am I correct in the fact that you use KY lube? Also is it possible for the rear head to activate the vacuum switch on the rear tank?

SP,
I wouldn't use KY. That is very water soluble and will wash away quickly. You also want to stay away from Vaseline and like petroleum based products as they will damage the rubber seals that they are in contact with over time.
I would use a good silicone lube. You can find a tube at most pool supply stores. I did pool openings & maintenance for several years in college. The silicone lube was my best friend to stop leaks on the pump lid seals and on all unions with the rubber O-rings in them.
Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Todd

 

[kaz911]

As with any business, Sea Ray has improved their methods and processes over the past years and I seem to find that the boats today are manufactured to standards acceptable to the Vendors of the products used by Sea Ray.

When did that start? I think I have (had) 10 items on my 2008 SR that are mounted directly "against" Manufacture recommendation. From fuel hoses, heading sensor for Axius, VHF, Antenna cabling, blower hoses etc. And that does not take into account things my manual says are installed which are not...

 

[mistercomputerman]

When did that start? I think I have (had) 10 items on my 2008 SR that are mounted directly "against" Manufacture recommendation. From fuel hoses, heading sensor for Axius, VHF, Antenna cabling, blower hoses etc. And that does not take into account things my manual says are installed which are not...

You are just not a very positive thinking guy are you? I am happy with the brand, so much so that I have purchased 3 of them. If you don't like the boat, get rid of it. If you don't like the electronics, get rid of them. Sheeesh. Complain, complain, complain....

Please note my last comment in that post:

Your mileage may vary...

 

[mistercomputerman]

Ok so here is where I am at on this right now. I am now starting to think it is my forward head. And here is why. Now the forward head does not seem to be holding water. When the pump builds up vacuum I can hear it hissing a little when the water level is down. But what is strange to me is that it is the switch on the rear vacuum tank that is triggering the pump to come on. So I guess my question is this. Can the front head having a vacuum leak cause the rear vacuum tank to trigger its switch and cause the pump to activate? Also do I just rebuild the parts in the head on the front or do I try cleaning the rubber and applying some lube on it which I have seen people discuss when using the search to try and figure this thing out.

Mr. Southpaw26

You may want to spent a bit of time on the manufacturer's site doing some reading:
http://www.dometic.com/enie/Interna...-Leisure/Toilet-Systems/Vacuum-Flush-Toilets/

The toilet it self has two rubber sealing rings that the white ball thingy (technical term, do not use lightly) seals up against in order to seal the bowl. Sealing the bowl is necessary for two reasons: retain water and pull vacuum. If foreign matter such as toilet paper or human waste gets in between the rubber sealing rings, then you have an air leak and the vacuum pump never stops. These rings wear out and the white ball thingy can wear out. The toilet instructions say to do two things after using: hold the pedal for three seconds and let it slam back in place.

You may try cleaning these parts with a standard toilet brush to see if you have a bowl leak.

Mounted on the back of the toilet is the water control valve that automatically refills the bowl.

If that does not solve the problem, the next area of concern is the dreaded "duckbills". These are 4 rubber, one-way valves in the pump that make the system retain vacuum. These duckbills (named because they resemble a duck's bill) also wear out and the system will no longer pull a vacuum. They are located on each side of the vacuum pump. Human waste passes through these valves. Changing them is not for the faint of heart nor the squeamish of stomach. You have to disconnect the hoses to the pump, unscrew the fittings on each end and you will find the duckbills. FYI, I changed a set of duckbills prior to a trip year before last and one day into the trip the head stopped pulling a vacuum. Eventually, I disassembled all of the parts and found a kernel of corn lodged in one of the new duckbills keeping the system from pulling a vacuum.

We now have two rules for the boat toilet:
Rule #1. If you have not eaten it first, do not put it in the boat toilet
Rule #2. No eating corn for three days prior to any trip

While you have your head stuck down there, you might as well pull the pump bellows (the up and down part) and check to see if there are any tampons underneath it. I have had several of these apart over the years and almost always find a tampon that the bellows is trying to unsuccessfully pound into smithereens. See Rule #1.

Once you replace all of the rubber parts, put the systems back together, gently tighten all of the plastic parts (do not over-tighten-don't ask me how I know) and tighten the hose clamps, you will probably find that you no longer have an issue. If you do, and if you are sure that your connections on the pump and the toilet bowl are not leaking air, then you can concentrate on the $125 shut-off switch.

Keep in mind, that if you are losing vacuum to a leak somewhere, then the switch is doing exactly what it was designed to do; turn the pump on to pull a vacuum.

Hope this helps.

There are a bunch of posts on this forum about the actual process to replacing duckbills. You are better off to use the advanced search feature to locate them.

 

[kaz911]

You are just not a very positive thinking guy are you? I am happy with the brand, so much so that I have purchased 3 of them. If you don't like the boat, get rid of it. If you don't like the electronics, get rid of them. Sheeesh. Complain, complain, complain....

Please note my last comment in that post:

Your mileage may vary...

I am very positive thinking. I'm happy with my boat - And I did toss my brand new c97 Raymarine crap overboard - and put in Simrad/Lowrance and I'm very happy with that.

But it amazes me that SR that designs boat for a living does not know a VHF should not be <1' from a compass. SR in general is great quality - apart from their electrical stuff. That is below below any standard for a PREMIUM brand. I also find it sad that the manuals are not the slightest up to date - but that seemed to start around 2006/2007 that manuals got 3rd priority.

But since I am a nice and happy person - I will not launch a personal attack on you. That would be unfair.

 

[alnav]

Mr. Southpaw26

You may want to spent a bit of time on the manufacturer's site doing some reading:
http://www.dometic.com/enie/Interna...-Leisure/Toilet-Systems/Vacuum-Flush-Toilets/

The toilet it self has two rubber sealing rings that the white ball thingy (technical term, do not use lightly) seals up against in order to seal the bowl. Sealing the bowl is necessary for two reasons: retain water and pull vacuum. If foreign matter such as toilet paper or human waste gets in between the rubber sealing rings, then you have an air leak and the vacuum pump never stops. These rings wear out and the white ball thingy can wear out. The toilet instructions say to do two things after using: hold the pedal for three seconds and let it slam back in place.

You may try cleaning these parts with a standard toilet brush to see if you have a bowl leak.

Mounted on the back of the toilet is the water control valve that automatically refills the bowl.

If that does not solve the problem, the next area of concern is the dreaded "duckbills". These are 4 rubber, one-way valves in the pump that make the system retain vacuum. These duckbills (named because they resemble a duck's bill) also wear out and the system will no longer pull a vacuum. They are located on each side of the vacuum pump. Human waste passes through these valves. Changing them is not for the faint of heart nor the squeamish of stomach. You have to disconnect the hoses to the pump, unscrew the fittings on each end and you will find the duckbills. FYI, I changed a set of duckbills prior to a trip year before last and one day into the trip the head stopped pulling a vacuum. Eventually, I disassembled all of the parts and found a kernel of corn lodged in one of the new duckbills keeping the system from pulling a vacuum.

We now have two rules for the boat toilet:
Rule #1. If you have not eaten it first, do not put it in the boat toilet
Rule #2. No eating corn for three days prior to any trip

While you have your head stuck down there, you might as well pull the pump bellows (the up and down part) and check to see if there are any tampons underneath it. I have had several of these apart over the years and almost always find a tampon that the bellows is trying to unsuccessfully pound into smithereens. See Rule #1.

Once you replace all of the rubber parts, put the systems back together, gently tighten all of the plastic parts (do not over-tighten-don't ask me how I know) and tighten the hose clamps, you will probably find that you no longer have an issue. If you do, and if you are sure that your connections on the pump and the toilet bowl are not leaking air, then you can concentrate on the $125 shut-off switch.

Keep in mind, that if you are losing vacuum to a leak somewhere, then the switch is doing exactly what it was designed to do; turn the pump on to pull a vacuum.

Hope this helps.

There are a bunch of posts on this forum about the actual process to replacing duckbills. You are better off to use the advanced search feature to locate them.

To add to this good advice, one more easy and cheap check before expensive parts replacement is whether the hoses are leaking or not. If the bowl is holding vacuum, disconnect the hose at the pump inlet, block it off (I just held my hand against it) then run the system. If the pump shuts off it would indicate the hose is leaking somewhere between the head and the pump, could be a fitting or a hole in the hose itself. I found this out the hard way after duckbill replacement didn't fix it. A dealer tech found the problem which was at a place in the hose that passes near a battery bank; he theorized battery gas deteriorated the hose but I have also heard of similar issues with boats of my vintage so there could have been some bad lots of hose used for a few years but hoses of the OP's vintage might well be expected to be suspect due to age. Anyway, it was a soundless pinhole leak and because it was under vacuum did not create a smell. So, a fairly cheap length of new hose fixed my problem. I would make this check after checking the bowl parts but before a duckbill dive.