Thrusters on a single sterndrive 270/280 Sundancer?

[Jim M]

My answer would be a bigger boat or a new admiral or maybe both!!!!

 

[Air O'Nautical]

A few thoughts..

I agree with the post "You don't need a stern thruster".
Once you can control the bow the drive will keep the aft in check.

You could benefit from a bow thruster.

But, until then.
You said when backing into a slip the aft line is the first on.
This is not correct.
As soon as you step off the bow is heading toward your neighbor! (right?)

You need to run a line back from the BOW to the stern cleat and be able to step off the boat with the bow line in hand. You can also have a shorter stern line in hand as you step off.
You have the boat in control with lines.
Even if a dock hand is helping, you want him to have the bow or midship, so you can power the stern in with the drive.
I did this successfully on my 27 for 10 years and docking can be quick paced.
You need quick access to the swim platform. Instruct any helpers to stay seated until the captain asks you to do something.

Bow thrusters are nice and useful...
Good Luck,
Mark

 

[comsnark]

Do you have a finger dock on one side?

I normally dock along side a dock. When boating alone, with any kind of unfavorable wind, I make sure I step off the boat with TWO lines in hand: A bow line and a stern line. Since I step off at the stern, the line to the bow is therefore several feet longer than the boat. This way, while I futz with the stern, I still have positive control of the bow. Just a thought.

 

[impactg]

But, until then.
You said when backing into a slip the aft line is the first on.
This is not correct.
As soon as you step off the bow is heading toward your neighbor! (right?)

You need to run a line back from the BOW to the stern cleat and be able to step off the boat with the bow line in hand. You can also have a shorter stern line in hand as you step off.
You have the boat in control with lines.
Even if a dock hand is helping, you want him to have the bow or midship, so you can power the stern in with the drive.

Agreed! When I had my 27'er, single engine, I'd always have the Admiral tie a line to the mid-cleat as the first line to toss to a dock mate. Any tug at the stern would send my bow out immediately and it was a major struggle to bring it back in such a small area to negotiate, as a slip typically can be.

Using a line from the mid was the answer and never had an issue with the bow launching on me and getting the boat sideways.

 

[Kaoru]

If you think you will have to continue to operate the boat without assistance and have any thought of upgrading in the next few years it may be worth just looking at a Twin Engine boat with Axius such as a 2009 310DA or something similiar as a possible option. That sounds like what you really want and it may be a better solution than all the thrusters if you think you will upgrade anyway. Just a suggestion.

I still stand by my earlier statement- If you get someone to install a Bow Thurster make sure it will not void your hull warranty.

That's a good suggestion and I'm glad you mentioned it. I've already weighed the pros & cons of trading up. Unfortunately, I bought my boat just before the bottom fell out of the market for boats in the US. Add to that the strong Canadian dollar (we're now worth more than the US greenback), and boats here are selling brand new really cheap. This means I'll have to take a major hit to the tune of $30K to trade in my boat. Then I have to pay for the larger boat and it's ownership; that's definitely out of my range.

In the end, I took a really hard look at a 2010 Sea Ray 310 and 330. In terms of functionality, they only provided *marginal* improvement (in comfort) but added a *boatload* to the cost of ownership. My 270/280 is trailerable (I bought a steel 12,000 lb cap. trailer) and towable by my F-150 (with max-tow). This means no pull-out costs, blocking, etc. I can do my own maintenance, hull washing, etc. and can look for different (cheaper) winter storage options. This eases my cost of ownership with the 270.

But I'm not sacrificing comfort or my goal of having a stress free boating experience. I've made my 270 comfortable given that I've outfitted it with a radome, satdome, sat. radio, internet/phone, and cockpit tv. Of course, this is on top of the factory chartplotter, AC, genny, windlass, electric grill, and camper package. This spring I'll be installing a Zodiac 240 Cadet Airlite with Weaver davits. On my wishlist, a Raymarine X-5 Sport autopilot and *maybe* a Raymarine DSM30 with shoot-thru transducer.

For some people, the above may appear that if I have money to burn; aka I therefore have money to trade up. The reality is that I did all the installation *myself*; my costs were only parts. I shopped around, researched everything, planned, and then pulled the trigger on installation. I don't do anything half-ass; I took my time and learned what I needed to learn (like marine electrical standards). The end result is a professional installation with a DIY price tag. I figure that I've saved to the tune of $7-8K on everything.

I think I found a cure for footitis... Drink a large dose of a *mod-installatus* solution! :lol:

Cheers,
Kaoru

 

[Kaoru]

My answer would be a bigger boat or a new admiral or maybe both!!!!

Nope! I definitely wouldn't trade in my Admiral, she is one of a kind... She turns a blind eye to all my hobbies. My HT/man cave, my movie collection, my high power rockets, my computer/gadget stuff, my home automation, my truck, my 270, and me spending a insane amount for a cruise on the "Oasis of the Seas" for the entire family this spring. The only rule I have to follow is "don't do anything that stresses her out". You can have a lot of fun keeping within that rule! :grin:

Kaoru.

 

[Kaoru]

waste of money. You'll be fine after a few times, all you need to do is build some confidence.

Maybe you'll luck out and have great dockmates who can help you when you come in - either way, I think you'll be fine

I definitely don't lack confidence in anything that I do; my 270 is a testament to that. I was born and raised in northern Labrador, a place where confidence is a necessity and *planning* means life or death. Imagine going on a caribou hunt by skidoo for a week where temperatures go as low as -50 (with windchill); confidence, thinking things out/planning, and self-reliance is just how you live. BTW, if anyone thinks why anyone would put themselves through that... remember that more people die of suicide by staying indoors/couped up than the one who do something/keep busy. It's only the impulsive/stupid people who are found frozen to death; natural selection at it's finest! :smt043

BTW, I feel like going nuts here in Ottawa, as my boat sits waiting for spring...

Kaoru

 

[Kaoru]

Any chance you can move to a slip on the end of your dock. May help your stress level without spending a ton o money.

I'm already in the best slip possible, given my requirements. Hurst Marina, eastern Ontario's largest Sea Ray dealer and located on the Rideau Canal, is very nice with great admendities and I'm slipped exactly where everything is a minute away. Here's a picture:

Hurst is able to accommodate up to 60' cruisers in length but the distance between the docks/fingers varies acording to beam; 2 boats between each dock/finger. I'm in the best slip for my 8' 10" beam and the spacing is more than reasonable. Unfortunately, given that my cockpit entrance is starboard and the marina norm is stern in (plus the Admiral doesn't like walking the finger/dock), I'm docking on leeward side of the dock since the wind normally is from the north-west and I'm docking east-west. With my camper up, any wind certainly reeks havoc; I have to put 3 dock lines and two spring lines just to keep the boat from being pushed about too much.

If I was docking on the windward side, it's a no brainer just let the wind blow the boat into the dock; just need some good fenders.

However, there is ANOTHER reason for getting thrusters... I'm on the Rideau Canal and going through the locks can be stressful. Why? Because some of the locks fill right to the top (you have to drop your fender to touch the water) and you have no protection from the wind. One gust while moving into the lock and you can find youself hitting opposite side. Many times I seen boats of all sizes being pushed around unexpectedly, captain to slow to respond, and white marks of gelcoat left behind.

Cheers,
Kaoru

 

[dpvandy01]

That's a good suggestion and I'm glad you mentioned it. I've already weighed the pros & cons of trading up. Unfortunately, I bought my boat just before the bottom fell out of the market for boats in the US. Add to that the strong Canadian dollar (we're now worth more than the US greenback), and boats here are selling brand new really cheap. This means I'll have to take a major hit to the tune of $30K to trade in my boat. Then I have to pay for the larger boat and it's ownership; that's definitely out of my range.

In the end, I took a really hard look at a 2010 Sea Ray 310 and 330. In terms of functionality, they only provided *marginal* improvement (in comfort) but added a *boatload* to the cost of ownership. My 270/280 is trailerable (I bought a steel 12,000 lb cap. trailer) and towable by my F-150 (with max-tow). This means no pull-out costs, blocking, etc. I can do my own maintenance, hull washing, etc. and can look for different (cheaper) winter storage options. This eases my cost of ownership with the 270.




But I'm not sacrificing comfort or my goal of having a stress free boating experience. I've made my 270 comfortable given that I've outfitted it with a radome, satdome, sat. radio, internet/phone, and cockpit tv. Of course, this is on top of the factory chartplotter, AC, genny, windlass, electric grill, and camper package. This spring I'll be installing a Zodiac 240 Cadet Airlite with Weaver davits. On my wishlist, a Raymarine X-5 Sport autopilot and *maybe* a Raymarine DSM30 with shoot-thru transducer.

For some people, the above may appear that if I have money to burn; aka I therefore have money to trade up. The reality is that I did all the installation *myself*; my costs were only parts. I shopped around, researched everything, planned, and then pulled the trigger on installation. I don't do anything half-ass; I took my time and learned what I needed to learn (like marine electrical standards). The end result is a professional installation with a DIY price tag. I figure that I've saved to the tune of $7-8K on everything.

I think I found a cure for footitis... Drink a large dose of a *mod-installatus* solution! :lol:

Cheers,
Kaoru

uuuuummmm no it's not! at least not safely unless by "Max-tow" you mean F350 Diesel!!

 

[Woody]

uuuuummmm no it's not! at least not safely unless by "Max-tow" you mean F350 Diesel!!

He's not given any specifics on his truck...how do you know? Some of those F-150 have a tow rating around 11,500# if I remember right.

 

[Gunn]

He's not given any specifics on his truck...how do you know? Some of those F-150 have a tow rating around 11,500# if I remember right.

Yes, some of the new F-150's can tow a considerable amount of weight...the 2010 F-150 can tow a max of 11,200lbs I think with the Max Tow package. Too bad I'm stuck on Chevy. :smt001

 

[jason78]

Yes, some of the new F-150's can tow a considerable amount of weight...the 2010 F-150 can tow a max of 11,200lbs I think with the Max Tow package. Too bad I'm stuck on Chevy. :smt001

Yes, that is what they advertise in the Big Letters but look at the subnotes.

I have seen a Chevy 1500 4WD pull my 280 up the ramp and down the road to the dealer shop with no problem and have no doubt my 1500 4WD would "pull" the load just the same. What can be towed and what can be towed safely are two different things.

I have learned alot about towing here at CSR too.

 

[Hellman Huddle]

I would not pull a boat that big with an F150. Pulling up & down the ramp is one thing. Down the interstate doing 60mph and you have to slam on the brakes. Well, your in for a ride my friend. I wouldn't pull my 260, with less than an F250.

 

[jason78]

I would not pull a boat that big with an F150. Pulling up & down the ramp is one thing. Down the interstate doing 60mph and you have to slam on the brakes. Well, your in for a ride my friend. I wouldn't pull my 260, with less than an F250.

Don't worry, I will not ever be towing my boat with anything less than a 2500. :smt009

My point was merely that Marketing Hype and Drivetrain Capabilities often exceed the SAFE, SMART, REAL WORLD towing capacity of the truck/chassis.

I know someone with a Toyota Tundra that would probably try to tow a Bulldozer if given the chance because he has seen too many Toyota commercials.

 

[jason78]

Agreed! When I had my 27'er, single engine, I'd always have the Admiral tie a line to the mid-cleat as the first line to toss to a dock mate. Any tug at the stern would send my bow out immediately and it was a major struggle to bring it back in such a small area to negotiate, as a slip typically can be.

Using a line from the mid was the answer and never had an issue with the bow launching on me and getting the boat sideways.

Good Suggestion, While reading on the topic, I often see this method recommended. If you tie off the Mid-Cleat first after you jump off, that will keep the bow or stern from getting away from you. Then you can take your time adjusting and tying down the Bow and Stern Lines. It has worked well for me.



The whole Thruster decision is a tough call. Whatever anyone wants to say about not needing a thruster on a boat of that size, I don't think there is anyone here that does not have one, who has not been in a position where they would have done anything to have that switch on the helm at that moment in time. I know I have.

I do know that by not having one, I have learned far more about how to handle my boat but always have more to learn.

After my buddy added one to his 340DA, I have seen how little he really needs to use it and don't think I would spend that kind of money to add one. That however is all a matter of opinion. If most non-Boaters knew how much it costs me to have my boat they would probably say I was crazy. So, as a fellow dockmate used to say, "Do what you do". If you think it will help, go for it!

 

[Kaoru]

uuuuummmm no it's not! at least not safely unless by "Max-tow" you mean F350 Diesel!!

Yep! My 2010 F-150 has a GCVR of 17,100 lbs; minus of the weight of the truck, one person, and full tank of gas and Ford arrives at their advertised towing capacity of 11,100 lbs. Obviously just a guideline; here's my numbers:

Truck (curb weight): 5624 lbs
Gas (31 gal.): 217 lbs
Passengers: 680 lbs (my family)
Cargo: 0 lbs (it's all in the boat)

TOTAL TRUCK: 6521 lbs

Boat (dry weight): 8300 lbs
Gas (84 gal.): 588 lbs
Water (28 gal.): 224 lbs (if it were ever full)
Holding (28 gal): 224 lbs (if it were ever full)
Trailer (est.): 1500 lbs
Cargo (est.): 200 lbs (static; provisioning done on water)

TOTAL BOAT: 11036 lbs

So the high water mark for boat, trailer, and truck plus passengers and static cargo is 17557 lbs. :wow: Granted that's 457 lbs over the rating but I was calculating worse case scenario. The reality is that I would never have full water or a full holding tank (I'd drain it/pump out before towing; which saves me 448 lbs.). Also, usually it would only be me in the truck; my wife would be too nervous while towing and she would insist that I do it myself. This is not a problem since I'm not towing the boat around on a whim; a lot of planning would take place for a safe tow. SO... realistically I'll be towing with a gross combined weight of 16,800 lbs; which my F-150 CAN do safely. (And yes the factory hitch, axles, and springs are rated for this amount; the max tow includes a brake controller for the trailer.)

Cheers,
Kaoru

 

[floriduramax1]

Yep! My 2010 F-150 has a GCVR of 17,100 lbs; minus of the weight of the truck, one person, and full tank of gas and Ford arrives at their advertised towing capacity of 11,100 lbs. Obviously just a guideline; here's my numbers:

Truck (curb weight): 5624 lbs
Gas (31 gal.): 217 lbs
Passengers: 680 lbs (my family)
Cargo: 0 lbs (it's all in the boat)

TOTAL TRUCK: 6521 lbs

Boat (dry weight): 8300 lbs
Gas (84 gal.): 588 lbs
Water (28 gal.): 224 lbs (if it were ever full)
Holding (28 gal): 224 lbs (if it were ever full)
Trailer (est.): 1500 lbs
Cargo (est.): 200 lbs (static; provisioning done on water)

TOTAL BOAT: 11036 lbs

So the high water mark for boat, trailer, and truck plus passengers and static cargo is 17557 lbs. :wow: Granted that's 457 lbs over the rating but I was calculating worse case scenario. The reality is that I would never have full water or a full holding tank (I'd drain it/pump out before towing; which saves me 448 lbs.). Also, usually it would only be me in the truck; my wife would be too nervous while towing and she would insist that I do it myself. This is not a problem since I'm not towing the boat around on a whim; a lot of planning would take place for a safe tow. SO... realistically I'll be towing with a gross combined weight of 16,800 lbs; which my F-150 CAN do safely. (And yes the factory hitch, axles, and springs are rated for this amount; the max tow includes a brake controller for the trailer.)

Cheers,
Kaoru

As Jason says, pulling it around and pulling it safely are two different things. Toyota has some of the best advertising I have ever seen when it comes to this. My 280 on my 2500 is on the border line and my truck weighs 7500 empty. I know they advertise it, but just think of the weight ratio of the towed vehicle to the towing vehicle. You have to have enough weight up front to control the weight in the rear. What tongue weight are you setting at when you are fully loaded?

 

[Kaoru]

I would not pull a boat that big with an F150. Pulling up & down the ramp is one thing. Down the interstate doing 60mph and you have to slam on the brakes. Well, your in for a ride my friend. I wouldn't pull my 260, with less than an F250.

Just like my take on thrusters, you have to assess the situation according to what makes you comfortable. For me, I put a lot of research into what I need to tow my boat safely and what is practical in terms of usage/cost for an around-town all-weather type vehicle (remember I'm in Canada where it snows half a year). A F250/350 was $$ and not practical given the former.

The F150 fit the bill but there are some *caveats* when towing such a load:

1. ALWAYS inspect the trailer, bearings (*especially for boat trailers*), axles, tires, and hitch.
2. Never tow without a tie-down (to a cleat) EVERY 10' (Ontario law). Never use the trailer winch strap as a tie down.
3. Got to meet all the towing regulations, obviously. Here in Ontario limits are it's 8 1/2' wide, 13 1/2' high, 75' long, and within the RGW (registered gross weight) of the plates (truck and trailer separately).
4. The hitch tongue weight is within the capacity of the hitch/truck, and is about 9%-15% of the tow weight.
5. The brake controller should be calibrated to the load and driving conditions. Remember that if you dial up the brakes, you can rip off your hitch. Have it dialed down too much and you may have the trailer pushing the truck like it's nothing.
6. KNOW you route. Steep grades, bridges, underpasses, tunnels, low hanging wires all have to be taken into account.

In my case, towing will only be for storage, maintenance, and the odd vacation plan where I don't feel like going thru a bunch of locks. BTW, the weight difference between a F-150 and F-250/350 doesn't mean squat if the above is not followed, and not so much to a 11,000 lbs load. I know what weight can do... I grew up seeing haulage trucks (i.e. Komatsu 830E) pulling 255 tons of ore and what happens when something goes really wrong; it's freaking unbelievable.

That's all I can think of right now...
Kaoru

 

[douglee25]

Not being a smart ass but why not just use spring lines? You can back down on it and the boat will be pulled right towards the dock. That is the first line on the dock, not the stern line. The stern line is the last line on the dock. Maybe it isn't practice that you need, just a little change in technique.

Doug

 

[Kaoru]

My technique has be honed down to the bare minimum. In addition to the stern line, I do have a bow line ready at the rail base closest to the helm in easy reach from the dock. I'm at the helm when my stern begins to go past the corner of the dock; which is my target in reversing. I have control until I leave the helm to immediately step off the boat from the swim platform. I have to have the mid cleat reach the dock corner before I leave the helm. Once I leave helm, boat hook in hand, this begins the vulnerable time where the wind could push the bow, stern, or both. It takes me only a couple of seconds to grab the mid cleat/bow line and walk her into the slip and tie up. Fairly easy with no wind but add a wind gust just at that time and I helpless to stop the inevitable. I'm completely at the mercy of the wind from the time I leave the helm until I step onto the dock and grab the boat. In those 7-10 seconds of docking ballet, I find it unnecessarily intense.

It has never been a question whether I can dock. It's been a question of how to dock without having to take a real breather afterwards.

Kaoru