Resealing the hull to deck joint

b_arrington....

Sorry for the delay but I would enjoy a conversation on deck mating and materials to use. You have been given great info here but if you want to talk with a factory guy I would be happy to....PM me a number and let's talk if you have not already completed the mission.

You are on the right track!

Capt. Rusty
 
Capt. Rusty Higgins said:
b_arrington....

Sorry for the delay but I would enjoy a conversation on deck mating and materials to use. You have been given great info here but if you want to talk with a factory guy I would be happy to....PM me a number and let's talk if you have not already completed the mission.

You are on the right track!

Capt. Rusty
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind offer! PM sent.
 
Anyone have tips for replacing screws where the head was worn off due to the boat rubbing a piling? Had some recent high winds and a stern line snapped which let my boat rub the pilling holding the dock. Fortunately, i don't have any fiberglass damage that i can see (boat is wrapped) but the wrap was worn off where it was rubbing the rub rail so i can see that screw heads are missing and the stainless is loose.
 
Donetalkin said:
Anyone have tips for replacing screws where the head was worn off due to the boat rubbing a piling? Had some recent high winds and a stern line snapped which let my boat rub the pilling holding the dock. Fortunately, i don't have any fiberglass damage that i can see (boat is wrapped) but the wrap was worn off where it was rubbing the rub rail so i can see that screw heads are missing and the stainless is loose.
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Are you sure the screw heads are actually missing, or are they just jammed up with wood? If the latter, pick it out. If the former, get an easy out or a screw extractor set (google those).
 
Lazy Daze said:
Are you sure the screw heads are actually missing, or are they just jammed up with wood? If the latter, pick it out. If the former, get an easy out or a screw extractor set (google those).
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I'm sure they are missing because the stainless is no longer fastened, it actually happened at a seam in the stainless.
 
Hello fellow Sea Ray captains. Thank God for this post and special thanks to member John Gordon who let me call and text him with questions and advice. I have a 1998 SR 250 Sundancer which is my pride and joy. Noticed that I was taking on some water in rougher seas. Not a lot but would see evidence of water in the bilge especially after rough conditions. My research led me to this post and the path to getting it fixed. I took a high pressure hose and sprayed around the rubrail in sections and would then look in the bilge for water. Everything was water tight until I reached the starboard rear corner. I could see that there was a bit of separation and sure enough this is where the water was coming from. I was prepared to reseal the whole boat's shoebox seal although it sounds like a lot of work but ultimately decided to only focus on the area of the leak which was about 4 or 5 inches. I elected to use 3m 4200 for this project with the idea that I may decide to do the entire boat in the future and would need to remove the repair. I would definitely use 3M 5200 if and when I do the entire boat for a permanent bond. The more I inspected this area of separation (which was about 1/4" at the widest part) the more I realized that the vessel must have taken a pretty good hit in this rear corner sometime in it's life. There was some spider web cracking in the area and a very small scrape where the gel coat was scratched off. Looking at it down the hull I could detect a slight variation in gelcoat color which also evidenced some repair. I've owned the boat for 6 years and never noticed this before except for the spider web cracking in the corner which I just thought was from age. However the port rear corner is fine. I carefully cleaned out the old caulk/sealant and used acetone to prepare for the 4200. I also used masking tape and newspapers to isolate the repair area for surgical precision. I know this stuff can be messy but with the tape and newspaper I had no mess to clean up. I carefully but liberally shot 4200 up into the void and used a gloved finger to press and smooth it out. Then removed the tape and paper and gave it one final smooth out run with my finger. It looks great and it is completely water tight now. I am concerned about this area from what b_arrington mentioned above about deck/hull separation. My concern is that if I completely remove all of the screws in the area of damage that I may have trouble getting the deck and hull shoebox to come together again. This ended up being a simple and quick repair but after reading these great posts I feel like I could tackle the whole boat if I wanted to and maybe some day I will. It concerns me a bit from what I've read here that Sea Ray didn't use a lot of sealant on the deck/hull seam and the Type-A in me wants to take it all apart and do right for my own peace of mind. But since I don't have leaking anywhere else I guess I'll just leave it alone for now. In the meantime I'm preparing for a great boating season in Puget Sound here in the Great Pacific Northwest.
 
Amen Pirate Lady! Those were my exact words and she still needs a good wash and wax so that's next and probably a better use of time and energy.
 
b_arrington said:
For anyone else that needs to fix their hull to deck joint, I did a lot of work on mine over the weekend. Here are some impressions and tips from what I've done so far.

The biggest take aways are these: 1) There's very little sealant in the hull to deck joint from the factory. 2) The job takes some time, but with the right tools really isn't so bad. If you have any decent fix it skills you can do it.

I had already removed the stainless and plastic rail. This weekend's task was to wash the joint, open it up, clean, caulk, and close it up. I got about 90% of that done.

  • First, the rub rail and the joint collect a LOT of dirt. I did a general wash first with boat soap.
  • Next I removed all the screws on each side starting from the aft corners. As I removed the screws I watched for movement to see if I needed to stop and leave some in for alignment purposes. It was not needed on the sides.
  • At the bow, I left in a few screws toward either side. I started to get a lot of upward movement and was concerned if they were all removed the entire deck would spring off and I would not be able to reconnect it. There seems to be a good amount of sealant so won't fully disassemble the bow.
  • The port side had a decent amount of caulk in the joint in some places, but not much overall. What was there had failed.
  • The starboard side had a shockingly small amount of caulk in the joint. At most, there was a small bead applied to the bottom of the joint after the screws were installed. I'm surprised I didn't have more leaks.
  • When removing the screws, in many places the deck sprung away from the hull about 3/4". In others only a slight separation occurred. The range was 1/8" to 3/4" with the average being 1/4 inch.
  • Removing the old caulk. Using a cordless oscillating tool with a scraper blade is the way to go. I ran it down the hull in one pass, then down the inside of the deck joint in a second pass.
  • Cleaning the joint. I used some M.E.K. substitute on a rag. I used MEK because it's compatible with the sealant I chose, and evaporates slower than acetone. I wrapped the rag around the blade of a 2" plastic scraper and ran that up and down the joint, changing often. There was a LOT of gunk in there comprised of old caulk and general grime.
  • Wedging. Some areas of the open joint were too small to easily get the caulk tip in. I used plastic wedges (from a laminate floor project) to open up the joint.
  • Caulking. I ran a thick bead of caulk from stern to bow under the seam. Ensured that I got a continuous bead. Also made sure to get some on the screw holes to seal up when the screws were installed. Pulled out the wedges as I got to them. Oh, and use rubber gloves. The caulk gets all over. I went through about 7 pair.
  • Installed the screws back to front again, closing up the seam. Added sealant to any screw hole where there wasn't any. An impact driver is an excellent tool for speed and to ensure you don't overdrive the screws.
  • As the joint closed some of the sealant squished out as I expected. Smoothed out the excess and ran a bead of sealant along the bottom edge of the joint to ensure it is completely watertight. Cleaned up any drips with MEK.

Next items:
  • Finish aft corners. The gap between the hull and deck here is HUGE. It was jammed full of sealant and needs to be recaulked. I ran a tube dry and didn't want to open another at the end of the day.
  • Seal the bow and stern. The joint right at the bow is pretty tight. Just going to run a bead of sealant under the joint. Same for the stern above the swim platform.
  • Clean and install the rub rail. Plan on adding some sealant to each screw hole as it penetrates the hull. Because there was so much dirt on the inside of the rail that cause black streaks I'm considering caulking the top and bottom of the rail. Not decided yet though.
  • May polish the SS inserts on my buffing wheel at home. On the fence about this one.
Click to expand...
You've done a professional job. After working on several boats and re-doing the shoe box joints I will say it's entirely wrong to believe this joint should be flexing. Production boats are built on economic standards, not to best practices. Riveted joints are fast, cheap and the worst. Screwing the clean joint together, using lots of high quality adhesive sealant (eg. 5200) will result in a decent job when done as b_arrington describes. A through-bolted, well sealed joint is best. A proper joint distributes stresses over an extended area without issue. A poor joint will yield to repeated stresses and will eventually result in extensive joint failure.
 
We removed the rub rail then cleaned the joint out mechanically and then with acetone also. Then filled large long nose syringes with 5200 and fully injected the joint; it was a lot of work for sure but the boat is bone dry. The joint varied between no gap and up to just less than 1/2" gap. When we removed the rub rail the original silicone caulking just about fell out...
A couple of pics from two years ago when I did that job.... One thing I learned is to reinstall the rub rail every afternoon when work was done for the day or it will take a different shape then really require an army to bend back to the boat.
IMG_4059.jpg
IMG_4058.jpg Compressed.jpg
IMG_4057.jpg Compressed.jpg
 
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Thanks for the great pics ttmott. It really is a large endeavor. Good to know about replacing the rub rail right away too. I was wondering about how easy it would be to replace. Mine doesn't look too pliable and I questioned if it would be hard to put it back on or if it would just fit like a glove. This project is not for the faint of heart and most likely I'd be the guy that nothing fits back right and I'm worse off than when I started.
 
VictorJohn said:
Thanks for the great pics ttmott. It really is a large endeavor. Good to know about replacing the rub rail right away too. I was wondering about how easy it would be to replace. Mine doesn't look too pliable and I questioned if it would be hard to put it back on or if it would just fit like a glove. This project is not for the faint of heart and most likely I'd be the guy that nothing fits back right and I'm worse off than when I started.
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I found a multi tool with a caulking removal blade made the effort much easier.
 
I resealed my rub rail this spring after a 2 year battle with leaks. I had the boatyard reseal it last year and it didn’t stop the leaks so I took it off this spring and did it myself. My procedure was similar to Tom’s except I elected to use West Marine six-10 up in the hull to deck joint first. This was on a recommendation from my Surveyer and a local boat builder who I had look at the boat last fall to try to figure out the leak. I didn’t think it was the rubrail because I had already had the rub rail “resealed” by the boatyard last spring. Once the Six-10 dried I used 4200 to caulk the space under the joint on top of the Six-10. Then used 4000UV to mount the rub rail back to the boat with.
 
ttmott said:
We removed the rub rail then cleaned the joint out mechanically and then with acetone also. Then filled large long nose syringes with 5200 and fully injected the joint; it was a lot of work for sure but the boat is bone dry. The joint varied between no gap and up to just less than 1/2" gap. When we removed the rub rail the original silicone caulking just about fell out...
A couple of pics from two years ago when I did that job.... One thing I learned is to reinstall the rub rail every afternoon when work was done for the day or it will take a different shape then really require an army to bend back to the boat.
View attachment 104819 View attachment 104820 View attachment 104821
Click to expand...
Interesting that you had problems with the rub rail changing shape. I didn't have this experience. If I recall correctly, I took off the whole rub rail and laid it under the boat. I didn't have much of a problem with the rail having deformed when I reattached it. Maybe mine was a different material than yours.

As mentioned above, I also had a variable gap in the joint with some being very closed. I can imagine that using syringes would have been a real PITA. For the more closed areas those areas I wedged open the joint and just used the caulking gun to get the 5200 in the joint. Worked out quite nicely and the boat was dry and solid until I sold it.
 
Jeremygavin said:
I resealed my rub rail this spring after a 2 year battle with leaks. I had the boatyard reseal it last year and it didn’t stop the leaks so I took it off this spring and did it myself. My procedure was similar to Tom’s except I elected to use West Marine six-10 up in the hull to deck joint first. This was on a recommendation from my Surveyer and a local boat builder who I had look at the boat last fall to try to figure out the leak. I didn’t think it was the rubrail because I had already had the rub rail “resealed” by the boatyard last spring. Once the Six-10 dried I used 4200 to caulk the space under the joint on top of the Six-10. Then used 4000UV to mount the rub rail back to the boat with.
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I think "resealing the rub rail" may be a bit of a different scope than "resealing the hull to deck joint". Seems like the yard did the former and you did the latter.

There's more than one way to skin this cat. Based on the product description I felt like six-10 was too rigid a product for a deck joint application. 5200 lists hull to deck joints as a primary application so I went with that. It also meant that I could use a one step process where the 5200 would be both an adhesive and a sealer so a secondary sealing product wasn't needed. The 4200UV would certainly be a good option for anything exposed to sunlight.
 
VictorJohn said:
Thanks for the great pics ttmott. It really is a large endeavor. Good to know about replacing the rub rail right away too. I was wondering about how easy it would be to replace. Mine doesn't look too pliable and I questioned if it would be hard to put it back on or if it would just fit like a glove. This project is not for the faint of heart and most likely I'd be the guy that nothing fits back right and I'm worse off than when I started.
Click to expand...

Your boat is more similar in size to mine. I had no issues with the plastic rub rail fitting back in place. I used the same screw holds and it pulled back into place nicely. Oddly I hade more issues with the stainless insert. I had to finesse the joint for that a bit.

After having done this project I can say that the anticipation is worse than the actual work. It was pretty straight forward with no real surprises. Just look at the notes I wrote up above and it's quite doable. My only caution - and I mentioned this in my of my earlier posts - is to leave some screws at the bow. That area wanted to spring open. I left some screws in there, completed the rest of the hull, then remaining small section at the bow. I really think if I had removed all the bow screws I would have been in a world if trouble from the upper deck flexing away from the hull.
 
b_arrington said:
I think "resealing the rub rail" may be a bit of a different scope than "resealing the hull to deck joint". Seems like the yard did the former and you did the latter.

There's more than one way to skin this cat. Based on the product description I felt like six-10 was too rigid a product for a deck joint application. 5200 lists hull to deck joints as a primary application so I went with that. It also meant that I could use a one step process where the 5200 would be both an adhesive and a sealer so a secondary sealing product wasn't needed. The 4200UV would certainly be a good option for anything exposed to sunlight.
Click to expand...
I agree that the resealing of the rub rail and resealing of the deck joint are different animals all together. The boatyard did reseal the deck joint as I asked them to do from the evidence of fresh caulking in the joint when I took off the run rail this spring. The issue I think came with them not making sure it was cleaned out properly before resealing and also not getting the sealant up into the joint enough because when I pulled out the sealant they installed there was seawater behind it that came out. They were having issues getting work done last spring due to Covid so who knows who worked on my boat as I was pushing to get it into the water ASAP so I could get it back to MA because in April and may of last year I wasn’t supposed to be in RI being a resident from MA without 2 week quarantine so it was making it very difficult to get the boat ready for the season.
I had seen this thread this winter before I started on my boat this spring and made me question whether the Six-10 that the Surveyer recommended was the correct material. I spoke with a guy I know that has worked at boat building yards his whole life and he endorsed the six-10 as well so that’s what I went with. I was going to use 5200 and both said under normal circumstances that would probably be the right material to use but because I was getting water forced up into the joint under pressure while underway they both liked the idea of getting epoxy up inside the joint to fill the large voids and then seal it up with 4200.
 
b_arrington said:
Interesting that you had problems with the rub rail changing shape. I didn't have this experience. If I recall correctly, I took off the whole rub rail and laid it under the boat. I didn't have much of a problem with the rail having deformed when I reattached it. Maybe mine was a different material than yours.

As mentioned above, I also had a variable gap in the joint with some being very closed. I can imagine that using syringes would have been a real PITA. For the more closed areas those areas I wedged open the joint and just used the caulking gun to get the 5200 in the joint. Worked out quite nicely and the boat was dry and solid until I sold it.
Click to expand...
The rub rail is very large on the 52DB and it has a compound curve on the sides; it was that compound curve that was changing shape if I didn't reinstall if every evening; reinstall like every third screw.
Regarding sealing the rub rail - don't caulk the underside; that needs to remain open so water can drain out.
 
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Capt. Rusty Higgins said:
b_arrington....

Sorry for the delay but I would enjoy a conversation on deck mating and materials to use. You have been given great info here but if you want to talk with a factory guy I would be happy to....PM me a number and let's talk if you have not already completed the mission.

You are on the right track!

Capt. Rusty
Click to expand...
Hi Captain
I’m doing the hull deck joint on my Sundancer 260 right now. My main question is if 5200 is the go to sealant?
After reading the thread I’m still not sure, and sea ray won’t give tech support on boats over 10 years old..mines a 2006.
Thank you sir!
 
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