Replacing dripless seals

Firefly

Firefly

New Member
Jan 5, 2007
79
Key West, Fl
Hello,

I'm told that my dripless shaft seals are no longer dripless. I'm also being told that they have to lift my engines up out of the boat in order to change the seals. My boat, Firefly, is a 1997 330 Sundancer with 7.4L MPI enginges.

My question is: is that really true? Do they really have to lift the engines out of the boat. That seems so drastic.
 
Welcome to CSR Firefly, I do not have any help for you but hopefully others will shortly. Again welcome to CSR!!!

Wesley
 
We don't know who "they" is or are, but if they are a Sea Ray dealer and have done seal replacement on a 330DA before, they probably have experience enough to know. A boat yard that has only seen one set of Tides seal may not know. On a 330DA, I don't know for sure, but I suspect it will be a tight squeeze to get access to the seals without removing at least one engine. To give you an idea of the task at hand, here's what must be done to replace the seals:

The prop must be removed, the transmission coupler must be removed from the tansmission end of the shaft, the shaft has to be slipped aft far enough to remove the seal body off the end of the shaft assuming there is enough room between the engine's oil pan and the shaft end. The shaft has to be slipped back intothe boat and polished where the lip seal rides on the shaft, then the shaft is slipped aft again and the new seal slipped over the shaft end. Enough of the shaft has to stay in the boat to hold the seal. Then the shaft is slipped forward, the extra seal and carrier is installed on the shaft, thewn the shaft is slipped forward and reassembled thru the transmission and intothe coupler.

I suspect the problem may be getting access to the seal location with both motors on place, but I'm guessing it can be done by removing only one motor.

Removing an engine from a DA isn't difficult and shouldn't be that expensive.

Whatever you do, replace both seal at the same time if you do one. Since they run in the same conditions and are subjected to the same wear factors, the other seal is probably going to fail within months if the first is leaking now.
 
Thanks Frank. By "they" I mean the local mechanic who everyone recommends. We call him the barefoot mechanic. I'm down here in the Fla Keys and we don't have any Sea Ray dealers or mechanics. You just have to go with who you trust or who everyone recommends. Everyone around sure seems to love the barefoot mechanic and he sure knew my boat inside and out without ever seeing it. However, he seemed to think that he could do the job with the boat in the water. From your description, it seems like the boat should be pulled.
 
Firefly,

I guess all things are possible, but I sure wouldn't do a seal installation or replacement in the water. If your guy attempts it, be sure you have communicated with a nearby boat yard and have made prior arrangements fro an emergency haul out if things go south.

You may want to get this information to Mr. Barefoot and maybe he'll change his opinion about the haulout.....

http://www.tidesmarine.com/shaft-seals.html

Also, be sure you order a complete new installation kit. Tides changed the hose and seal body recently and the new design is much better. Additionally, be sure to get the cross-over feed kit as well. This addition allows one engine to cool both seals in case of an engine failure.
 
Firefly,

I have the same boat and find it hard to believe that a good mechanic can't do this with the engines in place. I believe all-new seals from Tides Marine run between $400 and $500 each - at least that's what my mechanic tells me.

Before you jump into this I suggest you call Tides Marine - I think they can give you the details about replacing seals. There are even kits for some of the key parts. They have a description of the replacement procedure here.. This is definitely a haul-out job.
 
Been there, done that. I have a '95 330. Boat definately has to be hauled. You absolutley CAN change the seals with the engines in place. It is difficult and not fun. <you'll want to be sure there are no children around>. Just this weekend I had to replace a hose clamp on one. No fun. I badly wanted a SR engineer/designer there to go through the hell I had to to change one dam@ hose clamp. If you <or the mechanic> are skinny enough, you can do it with the engines in place <or have really long arms>. If you are a bigger person, you might need to remove the outboard elbow and exhaust manifold to have enough room.

But, it is most always the recommendation to pull the engines, as mechanics usually don't want to have to deal with the difficulties. You should be able to do both seals with only removing one engine. Find out how much more they are charging for the engine R&I. Remember that they will already have to remove the prop and shaft, that's half the labor. After that, a few hose clamps, disconnect come wiring, 4 mounting bolts and "whosh" it's outta there. <some yards hide a lot of profit on R&I and engine.>

I disagree on having to replace the hole seal body <as long has it is not damaged and shows no signs of wear>. The replaceable seal kit is only about $40 vs $450 for the whole sha-bang. If they do pull the engine<s>, I would replace all the clamps and the hose that goes to the stern tube to the seal housing.
 
The sea body and silicone rubber hose design was changed a year or so ago. The new seal body does not wear as badly and the new "humped" hose handles a little shaft runout better than the old straight hose did.

The important thing to realize is that if the $40 lip seal is leaking, it got worn for a reason and that reason is ivory soap % sure to have been caused by the seal body wearing and allowing the lip seal to wobble on the shaft. Just replacing the lip seal isn't going to fix the problem, it will only mean a re-do in a few months. It has always been worth it to me to spend the extra money for the new seal kit to be sure I got the problem fixed.
 
Ok, So I have to have the boat pulled ... I may or may not have to have one of the engines pulled ... and I need to research whether to replace just the seal or the entire unit on both sides.

Here's another question. Since this isn't going to be cheap. How long do I have to budget for this. Right now there's a slow trickle. Is it going to suddenly start gushing? Or can I continue to use my boat while I save and budget for the work that needs to be done?

Thanks for all this great help. This forum is priceless.
 
I'm sticking with my orginal recomendations. If the shaft seal body is worn/wobbling, that's an alignment issue and the problem will re-occur even if you do replace the housing. As I stated, if the seal housing is not damged/worn, there is no reason to replace it, especially at such a high price <$450 vs $40>. The seal itself does wear out and that alone could be the cause.

Are you sure the seal was getting cooling water? That could be the cause and even if you do replace the shaft housing, the problem with re-occur.

I have the orginal seal bodies on my boat and it is 12 years old and has 1,400 hours. The port side has the orginal seal, the strb was changed 600 hours ago <due to a ruptured cooling line to the seal.>

You bring up a good point about how long can you use the boat before you have it repaired. Stuffing boxes have leaked water into boats for centuries, but your situation could get worse. I'd be careful
 
A worn seal does not necessarily mean an alignment issue. Certainly, run out in the shaft at the seal body will eventually wear the seal ( .018 runout at the seal takes about 3 years and 250 hours to wear out a seal on a 1 3/4" shaft --- don't ask, I know!). Run out can be caused by a number of things, alignment being only one of them. The vast majority of seal failures result from running the boat in shallow water or backing off a sand bar. Tides seals will not handle sand and grit in the water at all. We are in an area with some shallow water and sandy bottom as well and seal replacement is reasonable common on Sea Rays here. It is nearly always caused by anchoring in very shallow water.

The lip lip seal very seldom wears out all by itself....there is almost always a worn seal body that caused the lip seal failure.

The failure begins with a drip of a few drops a minute and progresses downhill from there. Once you get to a steady stream, you are on borrowed time and you really need to be sure your batteries are good and your converter working properly. How long it'll last depends upon your tolerance for risk and desire to deal with the increased maintenance caused by having a salty wet engine room.
 
Today my mechanic was on my '97 330 DA with twin 7.4L v-drives, and I asked him about what is involved in replacing the dripless seals. He said, "haul out and pull the shafts". When I asked about cramped quarters and pulling an engine he said clearly, "not necessary". He told me that he has replaced many with less room than mine and he can easily get to them lying down between the engines.

If your mechanic insists on pulling even one engine, get a new mechanic.
 
Did anybody catch the article in Jan, 2007 issue of Boating about installing a Tides dripless shaft seal? What timing!! Anyway, it wasn't that informative. At least no more than this forum or the Tides own website. The article did mention that it can be done in the water, but didn't recommend it.

Unfortunately, I'm sick and won't be going to the boat this weekend. I was hoping to get down in between the engines to have a good look at where the water is coming from.

I think, after I examine the boat, my next move will be to get a couple of estimates from the bigger boatyards here in Marathon and I'll mention that I don't want the engines pulled. I'll see what they say. The problem is that the few reputable places here have a monopoly and they know it. They pretty much tell YOU the way it will be or they're not interested in working on your boat. It isn't like you can mechanic shop down here ... unless you want the Sea Ray Expert who you met at the bar last night to work on your boat. Not.

I'll update this post to let everyone know what happens and of course I'll have the whole story on Firefly's blog.
 
Yes. I installed them on my 93 37 SR express. My 2004 Tiara has them from the factory. My experience consists of about 400 hours. I've not had any issues with either boat related to these dripless shafts.
 
Update

Hey everyone,

Well, I'm almost positive that my dripless seals are not leaking. I've checked now 5 times after every cruise and there is no water coming in at the shafts. They are bone dry when I wrap my hands around them.

Yet, I'm still getting water in the bilge and, for the life of me, I can't figure out where it's coming from??? I know some of it's rain water becuase (I hope this doesn't gross you out) I tasted it and it was brakish water. So I know at least some of the water is fresh water. I've checked all the through hulls and they are all dry.
I'm at a loss.
 
The rudder shaft stuffing boxes are often a source of water ingress and with re-tightening can be dried up most of the time.

Are there any possible sources forward of the engines??
 
Actually, it's interesting that you pointed that out. I know that the rudder shaft is leaking, but I didn't think it was enough to be the source. When I touch the rudder shaft seal, it's always wet, but there is no obvious drip or running water.

As to your other question, sure it could be coming from further up the hull, but man I don't know how i'd ever get up there to tell. There are no through hulls past the engine room bulkhead and I just had the boat surveyed and he found nothing during the haul out.
 
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