NOTICE SEA RAY RE-FIT PROJECT-need input

[Alex F]

That's where pricing it right will play a huge roll. But, how is it different today? I remember when I was shopping for 320DA and looking at 5 pages in YW the prices for similar boats (years and hours wise) where all over the place. So, how does one justifies to the bank that boat A is worth $120K while similar boat B is for sale for $85?

 

[fwebster]

Having seen how these boats are built, I don't think there is a fair way to price a "package A"; "package B", etc. with any reasonable accuracy, like ±10%.......the boats models are just too dissimilar. To get an accurate and best price to the customer, whoever prices the work is going to need to know not only model specifics but the owners refit needs/desires.

One of the real selling features here would be a Sea Ray warranty on the refit. I think that might be an important feature, particularly if the owner was going to finance the re-fit.

Financing is another reason that this is probably going to need to be an individual deal between Sea Ray and the customer and not one where you could buy package A, B, C, etc. There will be a cap on financing enforced by lenders equal to the boat's fair market value after refit, less about 20%, less the owners current debt on the boat.

 

[Sea Gull]

I guess that I am firmly in the target market for this service, so here’s my take on it (with all costs expressed in boat dollars).

Moving my boat from CT to FL would cost about $5 in fuel, $2 in dockage and $4 more if I hired a delivery captain (unless Rusty will do it for free). So about $11 all in for a trawler speed trip to mother Sea Ray. BTW, fuel jumps to $13 if we increase to cruise speed, but we save $1 on dockage and $2 on the captain for a total of $16.

I had relatively minor work done over this winter including the following: replace part of track for bridge enclosure, install new shore power cord, remove/replace boot stripe, touch up paint engines, remove and replace caulking at bridge/house joint. For all of the above I spent about $3 in materials and $5 in labor. I also spent $7 on storage for the winter.

The labor and storage fees are what get us here in New England. I am paying +/- $.1 per hour for labor which is 2-3 times the rate down south. The storage I paid is deeply discounted because of the amount of work done on the boat, but I am still paying NE prices for renting a small piece of land for the winter.

Calculating the FL labor rate at $.05 and adding back in the self manned trip to FL at trawler speed the cost differential is less than $1 more to have the work done in FL. This is only for minor work. If there were more labor intensive work to be done, Sea Ray HQ would be a very attractive alternative.

One of the big benefits of doing the work in Florida, it vastly increases my cruising season. Heck, just the act of moving the boat to and from FL almost doubles my number of days aboard the boat. And, as Rusty points out, it might be fun to do a spring trip to the Bahamas and to spend weekends throughout the winter on the boat (when it’s not being worked on). Of course this adds cost for insurance too ass well as wear and tear, engine hours and crew time which all must be factored in. But so does enjoying time on a well found, well equipped and well maintained boat. Rusty, I’ll be there in fall of 2014 for sure!

 

[moparlvr4406]

What would be the target years for this retrofit ??
80s ? 90s? early 2ks ?
I have several thoughts and suggestions from a slightly different
perspective than the normal "yacht" owner....
just need time to organize them properly.
I see many possibilities here but a few potential "speed bumps"

 

[Alex F]

Moving my boat from CT to FL would cost about $5 in fuel, ....So about $11 all in for a trawler speed trip to mother Sea Ray.....

Jeff, I would never think that going to FL from northeast would be feasible at trawler speed. This is where Gary's statement long back rings the bell, where depreciation is one of the biggest expenses. Imagine going 1200-1300NM at trawler speed? Let me see if my math in on the right track:

1200NM @ 9MPH = 133.3hrs which translates in to 5.5 days of non-stop cruising. Realistically, if we're moving the boat to FL in late fall we use about 1/3 of the day. This would mean that you need about 3 weeks one way. All in all you would put 270HRS on the mains, at least the same on the genny and it would take about 1.5 months both ways. WOW....that some depreciation.

I guess, on trips like this we would have to accept the fact and eat the cost of fuel to go faster in exchange for minimizing engines and genny hours.

 

[jrirvine1]

The legs look very shaky from where I sit. Basically what you are proposing is providing a custom remodeling service for production boats and in effect transforming them into custom yachts – depending of course on the scope of the work for each job. The work is custom because it is not performed on an assembly line, each project will be very different and not mass produced. As much as we love or Searays, they are a production boat, although we would insist at the higher end of the quality spectrum. Custom yachts I do not have any experience with, but with regard to custom remodeling work – this business model is directly in my wheel house.

The issue is of course cost as compared value added. For purposes of this discussion, I would define value as the total increase in the real market price that one would realistically expect at resale. Value can of course mean many different things to each of us, but if we are discussing business plans, then we should stick to the hard dollars. There are not many absolutes in life, but with custom remodeling work, it is impossible to achieve dollar for dollar cost equals value added. Unfortunately, if we then consider the work is invested into a depreciating asset, then the cost / value metric takes an even bigger negative hit. This simply means that it would be impossible to recover the cost of the refit at resale regardless of when you were to sell the boat.

So then we are left with perhaps doing refits on Searays that the owners plan to keep for many years and are not concerned with the cost / value issue. My guess is that in the real world these clients would be very few as most of us would not want to make this type of commitment - particularly in this economy. It is nice to know our boats hold value better than most other production boats and should sale become necessary, we can do just that. I have upgraded my boat, doing all of the work myself as many others have, with items such as wood floors, electronics and new TV’s with the awareness that this many help in attracting a buyer, but I will most likely not recover the cost of the upgrades.

Others mentioned this refit system is already working with high end yachts such as Hatteras and Hinkley, but I would think these boats are mostly custom to start with and refitting may make better sense on the resale market – but that is just a WAG.

 

[Sea Gull]

Jeff, I would never think that going to FL from northeast would be feasible at trawler speed. This is where Gary's statement long back rings the bell, where depreciation is one of the biggest expenses. Imagine going 1200-1300NM at trawler speed? Let me see if my math in on the right track:

1200NM @ 9MPH = 133.3hrs which translates in to 5.5 days of non-stop cruising. Realistically, if we're moving the boat to FL in late fall we use about 1/3 of the day. This would mean that you need about 3 weeks one way. All in all you would put 270HRS on the mains, at least the same on the genny and it would take about 1.5 months both ways. WOW....that some depreciation.

I guess, on trips like this we would have to accept the fact and eat the cost of fuel to go faster in exchange for minimizing engines and genny hours.

You're kidding. Right? I think mine is one of the few 58s I know that doesn't make the annual trip South. I know of some that do the trip at high cruise speed, but the economics STRONGLY favor slow cruising. Using your math, I could do this trip for 20 years and only have 5400 hours on the engines. This is a fraction of the life of well maintained diesels. After 20 years this boat will owe me nothing.

 

[Tonysca6]

Rusty,
Hi, I thought I would put my two cents in being a 420 AC owner. I think this is a great idea & details still neeed to be worked as it with any new undertaking. We purchased our 1998 almost three years ago and she is our first boat, we love it. We spent over a year looking at all types of boat and kept coming back to the 420. It has, IMO, timeless styling and uncomprimised room for a yacht it size. We are seriously thinking of upgrading the her original equipment with new electronics, radar, audio/video, inverter and some kind of sound proofing for the Cats & genny. Would also like to add bow/stern thrusters and maybe a cablemaster. To me if Sea Ray is willing to provide me this opportunity for 1/3 the the price of a new boat I'm in. The thought of having all that work done by factory as a certified refit even better. I new to boating and the amount researching vendors and then managing the process is not really appealing to me. The process would also probably take us years to complete.
I agree with a lot of the previous posts regarding a financing option it would be great also. The remark about resale value, the used boat market is not going away,i would think it would only enhance your selling price when the time comes. As far as the location, we purchased our boat in S Carolina and had a glorious float up the ICW to the Chesapeake. With that being said would not be opposed to leaving the Lady at Palm Coast for the winter, would also have a reason to visit my son living in Winterhaven. He wouldn't mind spending some time on her either.
this is an excellent idea and will be following this closely. Thanks for the idea Rusty.

Tony & Deb
Crazy Lady

 

[StevenDavid]

Rusty
I like the idea. I believe there are others like me who don't necessarily care about improved value. Rather, I want my boat perfect, whatever the cost (within reason). Knowing it's the people that built her, would give me a higher level of confidence in the work. A side benefit for SR would be a better knowledge of what it takes to keep our boats in good shape from the outside in as opposed to the manufacturing experience of inside out. An example would be sanitation hose replacements, electrical runs, etc. After my lightning hit in Sept of 2011, I spent $138,000 between MAN and Marine Max on electronics, computers (MAN) etc. Having the factory do all of that would have given me more comfort. Having it then become Factory
Certified would be an additional benefit.

 

[Capt. Rusty Higgins]

Alrighty I am posting again because I see such great activity on this subject. Guys I really do know the obstacles to such an endeavor and that is why I came to the Sport Yacht, Yacht crowd as I know you guys already have sharp pencils in your pocket. I am going to continue moving forward and provide my superiors with the take-aways from this thread and the possibility of undertaking such an idea. Bottom line is if you understood my motivation behind this project , then you will simply understand why I have to drive this to a conclusion…..I kind of am hoping it does happen as I think it would be way cool for you guys to do some customizations on your unique boats.

Example of small project…..my old time buddy here on CSR, Jims380 had his 380 Sundancer touched by folks trained at this factory. His boat went from a Maple interior with fat TV’s and carpeted floors, to……Cherry interior, flat screen TV’s (all holes that had flat TV’s in them, were changed to door cabinets and the TV’s went to the bulkheads and all wood floors. I called Jim yesterday and asked if he could share his photos with you guys. That job took less than a week and did not cost an amount that required financing…..good benchmark for us to inquire on quality of work performed, timing of work and professionalism of Sea Ray people doing the job. I am betting his input will add some juice to your thoughts and discussions.

I believe as we keep moving forward and as I read your inputs it appears the concerns (all real) are such an order…
• Cost of getting vessel to Florida- we can create options as I mentioned before with our trucks and eliminating your winter storage and winterization cost….sharp pencils please.
• Cost of modification- I am not discourage here at all because I do believe you are going to be surprised at the rate we can attach to labor ( bet it is very competitive.) Remember what I said in that we (Sea Ray Boats) are not in the business of taking all your money and sending you down the road on one transaction. We yearn for your loyalty and will want to do business with you for many, many years.
• Warranty and follow-up concerns. We have been in this business for fifty years and even through hard economic times, we have not let our customers fall from the position of being the most important asset we have….don’t think it will happen now either. Good concern and good question….tell me what you want us to say or do to give you the assurance….express limited warranty???? I’m asking.

CSR members, I truly appreciate your assisting me with this idea and project that I have taken ownership of, for good reason. I do not know if this will become reality but it is such a cool idea that for multiple reasons, I am inquiring. You all have hit on the right concerns and questions and please keep doing so. At some point (probably after one week on the site) I will extract all this data and present it to senior management for their review. After one week, we can still try and eliminate the hurdles but if possible can you give me the thumbs up or down if you would consider such a program. I want to be able to provide management with REAL data that will determine how we proceed.

Thank you !

Rusty

 

[AKBASSKING]

Jeff, I would never think that going to FL from northeast would be feasible at trawler speed. This is where Gary's statement long back rings the bell, where depreciation is one of the biggest expenses. Imagine going 1200-1300NM at trawler speed? Let me see if my math in on the right track:

1200NM @ 9MPH = 133.3hrs which translates in to 5.5 days of non-stop cruising. Realistically, if we're moving the boat to FL in late fall we use about 1/3 of the day. This would mean that you need about 3 weeks one way. All in all you would put 270HRS on the mains, at least the same on the genny and it would take about 1.5 months both ways. WOW....that some depreciation.

I guess, on trips like this we would have to accept the fact and eat the cost of fuel to go faster in exchange for minimizing engines and genny hours.

Really not feasible? Happens all the time on the west coast up the inside passage, then back down to Southern Cal or Mexico for the winter. I am finding big advantages of going at trawler speed, less fuel and you see more things are just a few I can think of. But it is nice to getty-up when needed...

 

[rondds]

I'd say it's only impossible for someone on a schedule. If you've got the time, take your time!

 

[Converse48]

I'd say it's only impossible for someone on a schedule. If you've got the time, take your time!

Agreed 100%. My parents have been up and down the ditch 8 times at essentially walking speed. But of course, they are retired. I have "trawled" my previous boat (44DB) at times and I intend to trawl the sneaker at times too. It is a very peaceful existence you just need to make some adjustments to the way you manage life aboard and to your expectations. I am lucky enough that I can work from anywhere. As long as I can hit the web and have good cell service, I'm at work. That said, it is nice to know that I can spool 'em up and roll out at 25 knots if I need to cover some ground or outrun a storm, etc. I would also imagine running outside at speed over certain legs of the trip where the ICW is thin/tricky/riddled with bridges. Anyway.... trawling to Florida from the North East is totally doable. It's a time issue.

 

[Alex F]

Really not feasible? Happens all the time on the west coast up the inside passage, then back down to Southern Cal or Mexico for the winter. I am finding big advantages of going at trawler speed, less fuel and you see more things are just a few I can think of. But it is nice to getty-up when needed...

I guess you misunderstood what I meant by "not feasible". Obviously, there are advantages from economical stand point, but I'm looking at this from point of view of a working family and boat's depreciation.

I guess it's safe to say that the AVG family where one or both people are employed by a company full time have anywhere from 2-4 weeks of annual vacation time. So, looking at the retro-fit trip where one has to spend almost entire vacation allowance just to go one way would be a huge show stopper, IMO. If I was retired or had a business that allowed me to spend great deal of time on water, then of course I would love to save money and go at trawler speed all day long. But, I'm trying to look at this from the majority of people stand point.

Let's talk boat's depreciation. I have diesels and we all know that they're designed to run "forever". But, we're not looking at trawlers here, these are coastal cruisers. I did a quick scan of yachts 50'-60' from '93-'00 for sale and the most hours I found was 1500. So, this means that there's simply not enough data for SR to have proper expectation on what your 5,000-7,000hrs yacht will be worth when it's time to sell. My preliminary conclusion is that theoretically 5-7K for well maintained diesel engine is nothing, but practically I don't have a comfort level here until I see solid numbers where I can compare apples to apples (similar boats for the same age range where one has AVG hrs and the other has much higher hrs) to see if the price difference makes sense.

In my case, if I'm looking at around 300hrs round trip to FL and additional 150hrs for my seasonal usage this means that it'll take me with a brand new boat to be in the highest engine hours bracket on the market in just short 3-5 years.

When was the last time you hear someone here say, "hey guys, I just bought a boat with 5,000hrs"? Instead we see questions like "I'm looking at 1400hrs on the genny, how much longer will it survive?". I bet you that if we run the stats on all CSR (close to 30,000) members we'll see very low % of boats with hours exceeding say 2,000-3,000 hrs on the mains and even on gennies.

There's a huge difference between theoretically and practically. I actually have a good joke on that subject, if you like.....:grin:

P.S. let's just take a quick step back and not mix apples and oranges. It's sounds like we're getting off the topic and carried away with these hours. Getting back to Rusty's project this supposedly is just one time round trip for retro-fit project. I guess when looking at the big picture and even if we put extra 300hrs one year is not the end of the world, especially if in the end you have SR certified looking like a brand new boat. Most likely the time taken off is much bigger issue than engine hours, so this is why I brought this point up.

 

[Carver370]

With a diesel boat, the amount of hours is less of a concern than the amount of fuel run through the motors. There is an argument that the amount of hours at cruising speed to get the boat down south is harder on the motors and depreciation than a higher number of hours. If I am correct on the smart craft boats there is a way to look up the total amount of fuel used on the engines.

 

[Alex F]

With a diesel boat, the amount of hours is less of a concern than the amount of fuel run through the motors. There is an argument that the amount of hours at cruising speed to get the boat down south is harder on the motors and depreciation than a higher number of hours.

Hmm....that's good to know, Ray. I never heard that statement before.

...If I am correct on the smart craft boats there is a way to look up the total amount of fuel used on the engines.

Yes, you're correct. I always used it on my 320DA (I'm sure it works very similar with diesels), the total gallons and incremental usage.

 

[fwebster]

Alex, I can't follow your numbers, but any argument against a factory refit based on added depreciation due to increasing engine hours by running your boat to Central Fla. just makes no sense. You can spreadsheet the crap out if it, but a guy who is going to invest in $15K-$60K for whatever he choses to have the factory do in refitting an older Sea Ray, does it because he loves the boat, it suits his purpose. and he isn't going to sell or trade it.

Further, that owner more than likely owns a 10+ year old boat, so it is, for the most, part fully depreciated anyway. It is already at the bottom of the depreciation curve. The refit will certainly add more value back to the boat than the 100 engine hours incurred running the boat to Fla and back will take away from it.

 

[Alex F]

Agreed 100%. My parents have been up and down the ditch 8 times at essentially walking speed. But of course, they are retired. I have "trawled" my previous boat (44DB) at times and I intend to trawl the sneaker at times too. It is a very peaceful existence you just need to make some adjustments to the way you manage life aboard and to your expectations. I am lucky enough that I can work from anywhere. As long as I can hit the web and have good cell service, I'm at work. That said, it is nice to know that I can spool 'em up and roll out at 25 knots if I need to cover some ground or outrun a storm, etc. I would also imagine running outside at speed over certain legs of the trip where the ICW is thin/tricky/riddled with bridges. Anyway.... trawling to Florida from the North East is totally doable. It's a time issue.

I guess we were posting almost at the same time, but it took me longer to post mine.

Don't get me wrong, my crew loves trawler speed. Ever since I got my 420 any local trips I do at trawler speed since we're only talking about 1.5-2hrs trips. Long while back I've learned to enjoy the journey and more so on this boat. So, the longer I cruise the more I love it. I'm simply looking at the long trip from practical stand point.

Schedule is issue #1, the fuel cost is issue #2. In order to make this work I have to find the balance between the two. I'm sure that a lot of people are in similar situation.

 

[Fruition]

I think it would come down to what could be Afforded for each individual and sentimental value. Was fast association traansport, I would truck it. No engine hours. I'm lucky in that when we bought out boast, we were at an advantage and bought at a fraction of value. It's a 93' 330 DA . Very well kept with minor cosmetic and mechanical issues. We bought it for less than 8k and only had about 530 hours. We trucked it here to new York from Maryland ourselves with a Toyota pickup and a triaxle for gas money, 2 nights hotel, and food. All told aabout $600. Point I'm Making is this possible venture would make it worth while for someone like us. I could see 10k in upgrades and minimal cost to get it there. (With a sea ray warranty).

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[mistercomputerman]

If everyone is so concerned about engine hours, let SR replace them while they have the boat.

Sheesh...what the hell did you buy a boat for? To try to conserve fuel and not put any hours on it? If that be the case, you should have bought a condo. A condo doesn't move so the number of hours is not a factor and it doesn't burn any fuel. I am trying to use my boat as much as possible. So much so, that I am willing to drive it to NJ to meet with some of my Yankee friends who won't bring their boats to Virginia.