Liar, liar pants on fire

[Redhook98]

Funny thing, my gross pay is good. The only fact I know is my pay check keeps getting smaller due to the idiots in Washington and State government.

Yep, and those are really the only facts that matter to me......

 

[Pack66Dad]

Funny thing, my gross pay is good. The only fact I know is my pay check keeps getting smaller due to the idiots in Washington and State government.

So, I wonder why (since we pay so much for health care) none of you will even entertain the fact that a single payer system like the rest of the civilized world uses would save us all money?

I cannot see any logic in your position. People who claim they want to control costs, don't want single payer health care? The only explanation I see is that you have been brainwashed by the folks who profit from the bloated wasteful system.

Your arguments against high costs and inefficiency seem very hollow when you won't even consider the one thing we could do to substantially put money back in our pockets.

 

[jason78]

So, I wonder why (since we pay so much for health care) none of you will even entertain the fact that a single payer system like the rest of the civilized world uses would save us all money?

Because there must be some reason the rest of the civilized world so often relys on the US healthcare system for major operations, treatments or transplants.

 

[JediJD]

In one final (admittedly futile) effort to steer the discussion, and recognizing that this thread has touched a number of areas, I respectfully submit the following:

Pack, the charts are not in dispute...they measure what they measure. The methodology and conclusions are in dispute. The reason the methodology and conclusions are in dispute is that they represent a tautology, a circular reference, a divide by zero argument. If you provide a chart that ranks expenditures against life expectancies, you get the rank of expenditures against life expectancies...and that's fine, but that isn't a measure of the efficacy of the performance of a health care system until you model against available resources and test against alternate investment opportunities. Once you have a baseline, you can only then begin testing alternatives (such as "would more spending correlate to better service?). Intuitively, several other posters have raised that issue by noting that, despite being at the bottom of the pack in efficiency...the vast majority of the world's unhealthy population prefers our options (the vast majority of bureacracies hate free markets...but that's another story). We spend more because we have it, and exercise less because we don't have to. You can quote Ms. Huffington all day long, but Cato has some pretty fair information on this too*...and the difference is that I've read both sides (and it sounds like Ron has, and a bunch of others) and you may not have. I respectfully submit to you that the core of this argument boils down to this...how does adding admittedly inefficient layers of bureacracy to health care improve the delivery? Historically, the answer has been that government NEVER improves the delivery of goods and services, and in fact makes the process demonstrably worse in every instance over free markets (that doesn't say that free markets aren't subject to abuses...they are, but monitoring a system for abuse and managing the distribution and provision of goods and services are completely different concepts). No one debates that a "single payer health plan could save money", if I'm the single payer, I could save LOTS of money. The question is whether a government payor would improve the delivery of health care services and there is not an example in the world of it working better, for more people, than the system we currently have.

Com...you are a smart guy and have peeled more layers off this onion than Pack, but what scares you about Adam Smith's invisible hand as it appplies to Health Care? I honestly get the feeling you are a cynic rather than a true believer in a managed solution to crisis. Yes, there are some Tea Party idiots (and Republican idiots, and Obama and Biden's soundbytes don't make them sound like rocket scientists either), however, I know several of the top level people personally and while they may not be Mensa, they are college educated, well intentioned, and generally headed toward free market solutions. Maligning Tea Partyist for the Republican hypocrisy is no less fair than maligning Obama for Afghanistan...part of this is the hand they were dealt and moving out of it is simply difficult. Republicans are NOT free market historically (nor are any other party...) they are about power for Republicans. I submit that the real argument is bigger than healthcare or retirement plans. The real argument is whether you favor a managed economy or a free market. If you favor a managed economy, you have to concede that the only liferaft it has from collapse is some concession to free markets (see every socialist attempt since the beginning of time)...a pretty top heavy scenario at best. The alternative is to referree (not manage) free markets in the exercise of productive worth...intuitively much more efficient. If you use the managed economy/free market debate and test it against jobs (not just healthcare), you have some interesting outcomes as well. Perhaps manufacturing has left this country because of the rules, regulations and bureacracies that have been heaped on them over the past fifty years...not just evil corporate types trying to leech every drop of life from the body politic.

I am open to solutions...any solutions. However, until someone explains to me how adding more drivers helps to efficiently steer the car, I am sceptical.



*Cato Studies

"Reforming Medical Malpractice Liability through Contract," by Michael F. Cannon, Working Paper no. 3, November 12, 2010
"Congress Should Account for the Excess Burden of Taxation," by Christopher J. Conover, Policy Analysis no. 669, October 13, 2010
"Bad Medicine: A Guide to the Real Costs and Consequences of the New Health Care Law," by Michael D. Tanner, White Paper no. 29, July 12, 2010
"Scientific Misconduct: The Manipulation of Evidence for Political Advocacy in Health Care and Climate Policy," by George Avery, Briefing Paper no. 117, February 8, 2010
"The Massachusetts Health Plan: Much Pain, Little Gain," by Aaron Yelowitz and Michael F. Cannon, Policy Analysis no. 657, January 19, 2010

 

[Woody]

Because there must be some reason the rest of the civilized world so often relys on the US healthcare system for major operations, treatments or transplants.

Here's the main reason, note the source.

 

[jason78]

Here's the main reason, note the source.

Good point Woody, I needed an MRI recently and could have had one the same week but chose to wait 2 weeks for scheduling. My cost out of pocket $0

I also had two CT scans this year. One was the same day.

Not too bad at all.

 

[AKBASSKING]

So, I wonder why (since we pay so much for health care) none of you will even entertain the fact that a single payer system like the rest of the civilized world uses would save us all money?

I cannot see any logic in your position. People who claim they want to control costs, don't want single payer health care? The only explanation I see is that you have been brainwashed by the folks who profit from the bloated wasteful system.

Your arguments against high costs and inefficiency seem very hollow when you won't even consider the one thing we could do to substantially put money back in our pockets.

Because a single payer system does not work. Why do we want to be like the rest of the world anyway?

Fix the problems like I have discribed above and get government out of our lives!

Less taxes, less government, better standard of living!!

 

[Pack66Dad]

Here's the main reason, note the source.

Counter Point: American Healthcare Is Not The Best In The World

August 31st, 2009 by DrToniBrayer in Uncategorized

Let’s get honest, OK? America does not have the best health care in the world. Europeans and Canadians are not flocking to our borders to get to our health care. It is time we realize that we can learn from our neighbors and we don’t have to claim we are the “best” at everything. It makes us look really stupid in the eyes of the world.
Here are some facts. We do spend the most money on health care in the world. We do spend the highest percentage of Gross National Product (GDP) on health care and we do spend more dollars per capita than any other country on Earth.
The claim that the United States has the best health care in the world has been proven false by every broad metric used. The World Health Organization and the nonpartisan Commonwealth Fund rankings rate the U.S. last of the Western industrialized countries. The WHO ranks us 37th of all measured countries.
The Commonwealth Fund says, “Among the six nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in the 2006 and 2004. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, efficiency, and equity. The 2007 edition includes data from the six countries and incorporates patients’ and physicians’ survey results on care experiences and ratings on various dimensions of care.”
The U.S. also lags in information technology. (We have been awaiting a robust electronic medical record for 10 years) and in coordination of care and in measured quality outcomes.
One of the ways we improve in health care is when we face the brutal truth. How can you make improvements if you don’t know where you are starting from? If you truly believe you are the best in the world…there would be no need for health care reform.
Perhaps that is why these myths and lies are being propagated.

 

[Woody]

I live in a small town in north WI, population 7,000. I have access to the latest and greatest, no waiting. There must be a big cost in being able to provide that kind of service. There are lots of reliable sources that rate the quality of our health care by component, our system is not rated the best in all areas, but it's good and available.

 

[jason78]

Let’s get honest, OK? America does not have the best health care in the world. Europeans and Canadians are not flocking to our borders to get to our health care. It is time we realize that we can learn from our neighbors and we don’t have to claim we are the “best” at everything. It makes us look really stupid in the eyes of the world.

If you have to wait 6 months for a proper diagnosis or a year waiting on surgery, in many cases it does not matter how good the quality of the healthcare you end up getting is. The end result will probably not be good.

 

[AKBASSKING]

I had Prostate cancer 2 years ago. I got into Proton Therapy (a new type of radiation treatment with no side affects) in Jacksonville FL right away!

I just celebrated my 2 year anniversary of being cancer free and I got to "keep my junk!"

If I were in a Canadian/Britain style system I would not have been able to get the treatment I needed, unless I went under the knife and gave up all my "junk!"

No thanks! I am very happy with US healthcare. Just need to make some adjustments not total remake.

 

[wish2fish]

I had Prostate cancer 2 years ago. I got into Proton Therapy (a new type of radiation treatment with no side affects) in Jacksonville FL right away!

I just celebrated my 2 year anniversary of being cancer free and I got to "keep my junk!"

If I were in a Canadian/Britain style system I would not have been able to get the treatment I needed, unless I went under the knife and gave up all my "junk!"

No thanks! I am very happy with US healthcare. Just need to make some adjustments not total remake.

I was on your "Death Panel" and I voted not to treat you! :grin:

Thanks for not providing pictures on this one!


On a serious note I'm glad you are doing so well!

 

[JediJD]

Counter Point: American Healthcare Is Not The Best In The World

The claim that the United States has the best health care in the world has been proven false by every broad metric used. The World Health Organization and the nonpartisan Commonwealth Fund rankings rate the U.S. last of the Western industrialized countries. The WHO ranks us 37th of all measured countries.
Perhaps that is why these myths and lies are being propagated.

There you go, cutting and pasting again, Pack...a generally non productive exercise...As recently published by Investor Business Daily, a survey by the U.N. International Health Organization has reported:
Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis: U.S. 65 percent, Eng-land 46 percent, Canada 42 percent.
Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months: U.S. 93 percent, England 15 percent, Canada 43 percent.
Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months: U.S. 90 percent, England 15 percent, Canada 43 percent.
Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month: U.S. 77 percent, England 40 percent, Canada 43 percent.
Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people: U.S. 71, England 14, Canada 18.
Percentage of seniors (65 and older) with low income who say they are in “excellent health”: U.S. 12 percent, England 2 percent, Canada 6 percent.
The initial conclusion from this report is that the U.S. has the best health care in the world. But cost and availability remain problems.

Let's get back to the basics...how are extra drivers going to improve steering?

 

[AKBASSKING]

I was on your "Death Panel" and I voted not to treat you! :grin:

Thanks for not providing pictures on this one!


On a serious note I'm glad you are doing so well!

Thanks. They are catching prostate cancer earlier now. Obamacare would eliminate it for old men in their 60s. They are now screening it in mean at 42. I am now 51.

This procedure is the "cats meow" on treatment.

I think there are now 8 or so treatment centers nationwide. Jacksonville is the lead on Prostate. But you have to live there for 8 weeks because you get treatment everyday but weekends.

In case anyone is interested.

http://www.floridaproton.org/

 

[VTSeaRay]

Those of us that live along the Canadian border have for years been familiar with the large number of Canadians that have come to the US for better medical services(and better Dr's - funny, but the better Dr's follow where the money is, imagine that!) than what their country can provide in their healthcare system. Even our loser of a US Senator Bernie Sanders had to change his source for a government run healthcare system to reference(he now uses Norway or some other country(I forget which it is now) in Europe where we don't have as much information about it) after locals reminded him of how horrible the Canadian system is both for level of service, and the amount of time to have that service delivered (many of us have relatives that still live in Canada so we hear about it first hand).

-VtSeaRay

 

[JediJD]

Pack, something that might help is actually understanding the WHO report that you and your sources keep quoting. The WHO measured five criteria...DALE (disability adjusted life expectancy) and unfortunately didn't model for racial or ethnic metrics; fairness, which is commendable but subjective; distribution of health in the population (grading on improving inequalities...so equally bad systems were promoted over systems where the peaks and valleys were pronounced); responsiveness (we actually won the objective part of this one but the subjective "respect for persons component" hurt us); and distribution of financing-where points went to managed care.

So, much like your chart, the WHO measure definitely measures what it measures...but it isn't the delivery of medical goods and services at the point of need. Frankly, I'm not suggesting that its useless...it is, in fact, information that has been collected and is worthy of analysis, but it isn't an objective scorecard.

 

[Pack66Dad]

Those of us that live along the Canadian border have for years been familiar with the large number of Canadians that have come to the US for better medical services(and better Dr's - funny, but the better Dr's follow where the money is, imagine that!) than what their country can provide in their healthcare system. Even our loser of a US Senator Bernie Sanders had to change his source for a government run healthcare system to reference(he now uses Norway or some other country(I forget which it is now) in Europe where we don't have as much information about it) after locals reminded him of how horrible the Canadian system is both for level of service, and the amount of time to have that service delivered (many of us have relatives that still live in Canada so we hear about it first hand).

-VtSeaRay

Don't know if you noticed but I'm located pretty close to the Canadian border too. I make it a point to ask all the canuks I meet and my Canadian clients these very questions. Not one has told me they thought their system was inferior to ours, in fact its always been just the opposite. Several have told me about coming to the US for surgeries, every example was for a boob job.
I also have many clients in the UK and I ask them the same questions.... their answer is always "rubbish" the US system is crap.

I'm not talking about 2-3 people, I'm talking about over a hundred folks I have talked to, from every walk of life. All feel the US system is a joke and we are fools to continue with it.

 

[wish2fish]

to JediJD's point. If you let someone die because of lack of prompt treatment or any treatment at all it will be cheaper!

 

[JediJD]

Don't know if you noticed but I'm located pretty close to the Canadian border too. I make it a point to ask all the canuks I meet and my Canadian clients these very questions. Not one has told me they thought their system was inferior to ours, in fact its always been just the opposite. Several have told me about coming to the US for surgeries, every example was for a boob job.
I also have many clients in the UK and I ask them the same questions.... their answer is always "rubbish" the US system is crap.

I'm not talking about 2-3 people, I'm talking about over a hundred folks I have talked to, from every walk of life. All feel the US system is a joke and we are fools to continue with it.

With sincere respect...why the f*** would Canucks and Brits get a vote? If they don't like it, don't use it. We aren't trying to change their system...if it works so well, the free market will decide that for everyone. By the way, as long as the US is funding their health care system by reducing the capital outlay otherwise necessary for the effective national defense of Canada, they really don't get to complain. As an amplification, I have a friend from Kenya who believes that private property ownership is the problem in America...that if only we shared our cows and houses with everyone we could avoid all this terrible territoriality and stress. I don't respect his opinion of universal healthcare either.

 

[Woody]

Don't know if you noticed but I'm located pretty close to the Canadian border too. I make it a point to ask all the canuks I meet and my Canadian clients these very questions.Not one has told me they thought their system was inferior to ours, in fact its always been just the opposite. Several have told me about coming to the US for surgeries, every example was for a boob job.
I also have many clients in the UK and I ask them the same questions.... their answer is always "rubbish" the US system is crap.

I'm not talking about 2-3 people, I'm talking about over a hundred folks I have talked to, from every walk of life. All feel the US system is a joke and we are fools to continue with it.

There you go, how can you argue with that?