Liar, liar pants on fire

At least there is one Federal judge who understands the Constitution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121302420.html

I believe Congress has a lot of work to do to fix this so that it can actually help Americans. Ordering Americans to buy Health Insurance and controlling the entire process of how drugs are produced to the delivery of care is a lot closer to socialized medicine than it is to a free market.

-John
 
Perspective, Pack...one person's "ambitious attempt to overhaul healthcare" is another's "government takeover". With all due respect, you haven't been able to intellectually support your previous "drive by's" and I don't see much hope in this one either. Let it suffice to say that government took over health care a long time ago. The solution to fixing it is to allow free markets to do their thing. Obama wanted to add MORE government controls.

However, this general concept was addressed before...you have a much better chance of gaining high ground on these if you stick to warm fuzzies. Talk about the one in four hungry kids in America (don't exist) or the hundreds of thousands who have died from second hand smoke (don't exist) or maybe the benefits to the community of the modern union? :thumbsup:

Merry Christmas and safe boating.
 
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings, the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill

With Obamacare we will be sharing the miseries (30 million uninsured) thanks to the government.:smt009
 
Let me take a swing from the left.

As always. . . I am not saying the Government is the answer for everything: But I am also saying that neither is the free market.

Questions:

1) How can a free market function for critical care? Can you do cost/benefit comparisons on your iPhone while in an ambulance?

2) How does the free market insurance based approach address the tendency of "insurance companies" to aggressively drop coverage for pre-existing and new conditions? Note that job changes, and whims of the market place frequently *force* individuals who maintain insurance to change policies. The market answer, as I see it, is to become *more aggressive* regarding eliminating insurance risk so as to maintain profit margins for the insurance intermediaries.

3) Wouldn't the market value for any proven life saving medication be approximately 100-120% of your net worth (i.e. everything you have, plus some from your caring kids and grandkids)?
 
comsnark said:
2) How does the free market insurance based approach address the tendency of "insurance companies" to aggressively drop coverage for pre-existing and new conditions? Note that job changes, and whims of the market place frequently *force* individuals who maintain insurance to change policies. The market answer, as I see it, is to become *more aggressive* regarding eliminating insurance risk so as to maintain profit margins for the insurance intermediaries.
Click to expand...

That's a very good swing from the left... Total horse sh!t...

I've got plenty of pre-existing conditions... and none have ever been turned down when I switch insurance companies because I was previously insured. The insurance companies generally don't cover "pre-existing" when you come to them with NO INSURANCE and then want "insurance" to cover something you had no coverage for... Why would anyone get insurance if you don't have to have it until you "get sick"? That's like buying insurance after you wreck the car.
 
Where's the Troll icon?
 
troll_2.jpg
 
There are aspect, although very few, which are good from Obamacare. But issues like listed below need to be delt with a little bit of common sense. The Dems don't want a fair system, they just want to control it.

Pre-exsisting conditions,

Portability

Maximum co-pay

Cap on reasonable charges (why am I paying $10 a sheet for tissue when I can buy a years supply at Wal-Mart)

Holding insurance companies accountable

Tort reform

No decision should be made by insurance companies on a medical procedure. That is between you and your doctor. The insurance need only to cut a check.
 
AKBASSKING said:
There are aspect, although very few, which are good from Obamacare. But issues like listed below need to be delt with a little bit of common sense. The Dems don't want a fair system, they just want to control it.

Pre-exsisting conditions,

Portability

Maximum co-pay

Cap on reasonable charges (why am I paying $10 a sheet for tissue when I can buy a years supply at Wal-Mart)

Holding insurance companies accountable

Tort reform

No decision should be made by insurance companies on a medical procedure. That is between you and your doctor. The insurance need only to cut a check.
Click to expand...

Huh. Lately, I have not been agreeing with you too much. . .until now. This post hits the nail on the head.

You do raise an interesting point: What role DOES the insurance company play? Is it ok when they say "You know. . .perhaps a broken arm should NOT cost $50,000 to set". Is it also ok when they say "We don't want to pay $500,000 for a drug that extends life 2 months."?

This is a hard ethical question. Is it better made by bureaucrats or people who have a profit incentive? Seriously. . .what do you think? I see problems -big problems- with both answers.
 
There are a thousand questions inside of this issue. I don't know all the answers. I'm betting nobody here on CSR does. One thing is for sure...

Government should not be concerned with problems that it can not effectivly provide a solution for.

If they followed this rule we could cut the overall size in half, which is what needs to be done. This of course is like reorganizing the photos on my computer. It may never happen, but thats what needs to be done.

"Government that governs least, governs best". Bottom line... they have no business in the business of health care.
 
comsnark said:
Huh. Lately, I have not been agreeing with you too much. . .until now. This post hits the nail on the head.

You do raise an interesting point: What role DOES the insurance company play? Is it ok when they say "You know. . .perhaps a broken arm should NOT cost $50,000 to set". Is it also ok when they say "We don't want to pay $500,000 for a drug that extends life 2 months."?

This is a hard ethical question. Is it better made by bureaucrats or people who have a profit incentive? Seriously. . .what do you think? I see problems -big problems- with both answers.
Click to expand...

This is so frustrating to me because it IS simple. The most efficient delivery system of goods and services is direct. The more intermediaries you add, the less efficient the product. I accept the limited role of government in providing a level playing field among providers (although I think UL and Consumer Reports combined with a free press are more efficient) but government is the definition of inefficiency...adding more of it doesn't improve the big picture. Let the free market find solutions, and let government provide the education necessary for people to make honest comparisons. The six hundred pound gorilla in the room is that doctors and pharmacies are a protected guild (like lawyers) and allowing PA's and nurses to provide basic clinical services would go a long way to alleviating ER overload, just like loosening restrictions on many prescription medications, would lower the costs and inefficiencies. I represent a bunch of doctors, and I love 'em, but they want to be free of regulation but want barriers to entry to protect their turfs (and income)...and you can't have it both ways. Insurance doesn't have to be the answer to every question...a lot of doctors quietly provide good services on a cash basis...and use insurance for catastrophes.

We act like there is a perfect solution...there isn't. Russia has universal healthcare and people die of insufficient care. The US has private healthcare and people die of insufficient care. Ghana has no care at all and people die of insufficient care. Adam Smith's invisible hand is an absolutely amazing salve to societal ills...you just have to let the hand do its job.
 
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JediJD said:
We act like there is a perfect solution...there isn't. Russia has universal healthcare and people die of insufficient care. The US has private healthcare and people die of insufficient care. Ghana has no care at all and people die of insufficient care. Adam Smith's invisible hand is an absolutely amazing salve to societal ills...you just have to let the hand do its job.
Click to expand...

add Canada, England and many others that have tried to go this route to your list...government shouldn't be involved in healthcare, it doesn't work.
 
JediJD said:
The US has private healthcare and people die of insufficient care.
Click to expand...

That is NOT true. People in the US do not die because of "insufficient care", they die because they cannot afford care or their insurance companies "death panel" decides they are cutting into the profits a bit too much.

We do not lack for ability, competence or technology in our heath care system as the other countries you mention, we only lack the compassion to make it available to everyone.
 
Pack66Dad said:
That is NOT true. People in the US do not die because of "insufficient care", they die because they cannot afford care or their insurance companies "death panel" decides they are cutting into the profits a bit too much.

We do not lack for ability, competence or technology in our heath care system as the other countries you mention, we only lack the compassion to make it available to everyone.
Click to expand...

Obamacare is NOT the way to do it. Fix the problems not create a whole new entitlement.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world. Why we want to screw it up is beyond me...........

Do somethings need to be fixed? Yes. HMOs were the worst things this country went to......

For those that want universal healthcare, fine. Reduce my medicare tax by 50% and those that want it, go pay for it, but let me pick what is best for my family not the idiots in Washington....It's MY CHOICE, not Wasington!
 
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AKBASSKING said:
Obamacare is NOT the way to do it. Fix the problems not create a whole new entitlement.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world. Why we want to screw it up is beyond me...........

Do somethings need to be fixed? Yes. HMOs were the worst things this country went to......

For those that want universal healthcare, fine. Reduce my medicare tax by 50% and those that want it, go pay for it, but let me pick what is best for my family not the idiots in Washington....It's MY CHOICE, not Wasington!
Click to expand...

I don't understand the argument that if we let all Americans have access to health care that it will affect what we (the lucky few) already have. Somethings I can see the conservative point about cost and such but letting citizens of our own country die just because they can't afford health care is barbaric at best.
 
Pack66Dad said:
I don't understand the argument that if we let all Americans have access to health care that it will affect what we (the lucky few) already have. Somethings I can see the conservative point about cost and such but letting citizens of our own country die just because they can't afford health care is barbaric at best.
Click to expand...

I agree that everyone should get the same level of care as your hero Teddy Kennedy got at Duke, but I am sorry this is not utopia.

There will always be rich and poor and mostly middle class.

The poor in this country have no clue how rich they are. While they are fighting about the government GIVING them another cell phone or a 52inch flat screen, they need to look at Haiti or places in South America or other third world country to see what POOR is really like. Been there, seen it and they have no clue.

One way to save money is lock down the borders, kick the criminal illegals out and then our healthcare and schools can start recovering!! Stop spending money on other countries, get out of the UN and then maybe we can talk.

Like I said, if you and other Dems want to pay for it, then cut my taxes and you all set up a “poor fund” paid by you for them. They have healthcare! Been to the emergency room lately? Oh can’t get in because of all the illegals.

Pack, take 70% of your profits from your company (more if you like) and set up a Seattle based fund that folks can just come and get free healthcare. Nothing is stopping you.
 
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