Installing refrigerator: GFI or no?

[trflgrl]

Norcold NR751
DC wiring was intact so connected that, no problem.
AC wiring not ideal--someone had cut off female end of cord to splice directly into boat wiring. Would like to install outlet and use (new) cord as designed. Specs say 15amp so that's the easy part; will be installed under sink so first thought was to use GFI. Yea or nay, and why?

TIA!

 

[1990-270-da-lover]

I would not use a GFI for this reason. When the refrige starts the amp surge may trip the GFI because thats what they are designed to be sensitive to. Just install a standard marine grade 15amp device and let the breaker at the 120v side of the panel handle the load.

 

[Dieseljeff]

I think the fridge cord being wired directly is common. Mine goes to a plastic wall box.
+1 on not using a GFI, It would suck for it to trip and you not know it and the contents spoil.
Warm beer sucks!!

Jeff

 

[jason78]

Probably be best to follow ABYC Standards. I know in homes it is generally adviseable not to use a GFCI for the reasons stated above but I dont think a fridge of the size you are dealing with is going to pull the kind of AMPs a home fridge would.

ABYC regulation E–13.3.5 states:
If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI).

More info here- http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/ELCI -GFCI-Electrical-Shock-Protection

 

[carterchapman]

Trflgrl - On my 410, the GFCI in the forward head protects the cockpit refrigerator (it states that in the Owner's Manual), and I beleive the galley GFCI protects the circuit that the galley refigerator is on (It doesn't specifically say that in the manual), and I will check that for you at the end of the month and report back. You could trip your galley GFCI and see if that interrupts power to your refrigerator, and that would answer the question...

 

[trflgrl]

Thanks for the responses, all, and please keep 'em coming.

Probably be best to follow ABYC Standards. I know in homes it is generally adviseable not to use a GFCI for the reasons stated above but I dont think a fridge of the size you are dealing with is going to pull the kind of AMPs a home fridge would.

ABYC regulation E–13.3.5 states:
If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI).

More info here- http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/ELCI%20-GFCI-Electrical-Shock-Protection

My goal any time I do a repair or installation is to put things to "standard" or "preferred" as much as possible, so I appreciate this nugget!

Trflgrl - On my 410, the GFCI in the forward head protects the cockpit refrigerator (it states that in the Owner's Manual), and I beleive the galley GFCI protects the circuit that the galley refigerator is on (It doesn't specifically say that in the manual), and I will check that for you at the end of the month and report back. You could trip your galley GFCI and see if that interrupts power to your refrigerator, and that would answer the question...

I'll look into this....I could trip it and then test the exposed leads with a voltmeter, right?


What I know so far is that the breaker at the helm panel controls the refrigerator DC. Theoretically, the breaker in the cabin wall panel controls the AC--that's the missing factoid since the fridge isn't connected to AC right now so it's assumed but untested. Then there's a breaker for the outlets, which I assume covers the galley GFCI, the dining area/forward and aft berths, etc. I need to check the other outlets, because I think I remember seeing at least one other GFCI, either in the dining area or the one under the sink in the head.

Ideal setup would be only one GFCI per circuit, right?

 

[jason78]

Ideal setup would be only one GFCI per circuit, right?

Correct. You don't want to hang a GFCI outlet off another GFCI. One per circuit, ideally at the first outlet location in the circuit. That way everything downstream is protected assuming you connect the downstream side to correct side of the GFCI. Carter is probably right though. Unless it has been modified, there is a good chance the fridge wire is already on a GFCI upstream. With an '89 boat though things could have changed standards-wise since then so maybe not too.

Do you have any electrical diagrams? You may be able to download them from the Owners' section on the SR website. If not I am sure Sea Ray customer service could provide them.

 

[HUMPH]

Yes, you do not want multiple GFI's per circuit unless they are only protecting themselves. Don't install a GFI on the load of another GFI. It can cause nuisance tripping.

 

[peterkvs]

On my 400 DA all of the outlets that someone can plug something into are protected by GFI. There are two separate circuits and each circuit has one GFI outlet which protects all the outlets on that circuit.

There are however many other outlets on the boat that are not GFI protected. They are in the walls behind certain components, including the fridge, icemaker, microwave and coffee maker etc. There is no need to protect these with GFI because the user can't plug things into those outlets.

Pete

 

[trflgrl]

Yes, I believe I have wiring diagrams, because multiple times I've wanted to pull my hair out translating the references to their physical components/locations. But I haven't given up yet!

However, thinking more about photos I took and related info I posted in another thread, I'm thinking the current lead for fridge isn't on the GFCI circuit. There are four multi-strand wrapped leads coming from back of boat--one each to stove and microwave (which share a breaker in the cabin wall panel), one to the small box where the fridge cord should connect (separate breaker in cabin wall panel), and one to the galley outlet (under control of breaker in cabin wall panel). The galley outlet has an outbound lead that appears to route to the forward berth outlets.

Tonight's DIH night so I'll do some more exploring and test out what you all have suggested. I purchased a GFCI outlet already but won't install 'til I'm more confident what the environment is.

 

[BryanOnTheBay]

Norcold NR751
DC wiring was intact so connected that, no problem.
AC wiring not ideal--someone had cut off female end of cord to splice directly into boat wiring. Would like to install outlet and use (new) cord as designed. Specs say 15amp so that's the easy part; will be installed under sink so first thought was to use GFI. Yea or nay, and why?

TIA!

Per the ABYC:

Request for Interpretation:
ABYC E-11 AC & DC Electrical Systems on Boats


Question: E-11.15.3.5 states: If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI). (See E-11.13.)


Does this requirement apply to receptacles that are installed for a single-purpose appliance and located that the installation of the appliance (e.g. microwave in a cabinet) blocks access to the receptacle?


Answer: The Committee agreed that this receptacle is intended to be protected by a GFCI as per 11.15.3.5.

 

[Lazy Daze]

The wiring diagram for my boat shows that the fridge's AC is NOT downstream of a GFCI. From memory, I think I have also tripped my GFCI and the fridge continued to work (I would not have had the 12V on since I was in my driveway). Based on the response above and that you found your fridge hard wired, that would leave me to think (based on the info at hand) that when it's HARD WIRED, it does not need to be on a GFCI. It sounds like the way it was wired is proper, no? I mean, GFCI is to protect outlets, not hard wiring in boxes, correct? I am NOT an electrician, so it might be good to hear from one that is versed in boat wiring.

 

[dpmulvey]

Recipe for a new fridge.

Put fridge on a GFCI circuit. Add 1 pound of frozen/chilled shrimp. Add one power spike. Decide to have shrimp 2 days later. Try to remove spoiled shrimp smell from fridge for 2 days. Swear profusely. Remove and discard fridge. Write large check for new fridge. Install new fridge on straight circuit.

Optional steps..... Bang head on bulkhead.

 

[trflgrl]

Recipe for a new fridge.

Put fridge on a GFCI circuit. Add 1 pound of frozen/chilled shrimp. Add one power spike. Decide to have shrimp 2 days later. Try to remove spoiled shrimp smell from fridge for 2 days. Swear profusely. Remove and discard fridge. Write large check for new fridge. Install new fridge on straight circuit.

Optional steps..... Bang head on bulkhead.

TOO.FUNNY!!!



What are the pros/cons of installing a standard outlet vs. wiring directly? First Mate asked why when I said that was my plan....well, because I'd prefer it for ease of changeout should the need ever arise again to replace the fridge. And then he frowned. But he didn't have a reason why I SHOULD wire it directly. Stalemate between two people who aren't electricians yet are CDO in their own ways!!

 

[dpmulvey]

TOO.FUNNY!!!



What are the pros/cons of installing a standard outlet vs. wiring directly? First Mate asked why when I said that was my plan....well, because I'd prefer it for ease of changeout should the need ever arise again to replace the fridge. And then he frowned. But he didn't have a reason why I SHOULD wire it directly. Stalemate between two people who aren't electricians yet are CDO in their own ways!!

other...... err..... than the fact it wasn't on a boat......... Well....... DAMHIK!

a lot of "regulations" completely ignore common sense.
If you want to make a comparison... Donning Nomex.... The reason a GFCI is now required in a garage is In the event matter ever got to the electrical outlets in the garage that just happen to be 4+ feet over the floor.. If the water gets that high..... I have more problems than a blown fridge!!!

run it via a breaker only. If the breaker pops ( What's the odds on that?). So be it. The odds are few and far between. W/ a GFCI, the odds of said GFCI tripping are huge. BTDTGTS

 

[Lazy Daze]

Wiring it direct is a more secure (and safer) connection than plugging it into an outlet. Given the option, I would always prefer hard wired. In my opinion, it's not a huge difference, but boats do undergo a lot more vibration than houses and the smaller the boat, the more vibration. Besides, it would be more work to add an outlet than it is to simply cutoff the wires and re-crimp and in the end you would have a slightly inferior connection, anyways. If you're thinking "in the future" it would be easier... that "future" should be AT LEAST 10-20 years away. And let's face it, the difference between how "easy" it is to plug in rather than re-crimp is the difference of a few minutes, tops. Hardly noticeable.

I applaud your want to "make things better than they were" - I do the same thing. But in this case, keep it simple - the way it is currently is already the better way. Save that energy for another project... there will certainly be more projects!

 

[BryanOnTheBay]

other...... err..... than the fact it wasn't on a boat......... Well....... DAMHIK!

a lot of "regulations" completely ignore common sense.
If you want to make a comparison... Donning Nomex.... The reason a GFCI is now required in a garage is In the event matter ever got to the electrical outlets in the garage that just happen to be 4+ feet over the floor.. If the water gets that high..... I have more problems than a blown fridge!!!

run it via a breaker only. If the breaker pops ( What's the odds on that?). So be it. The odds are few and far between. W/ a GFCI, the odds of said GFCI tripping are huge. BTDTGTS

I believe the reason that it is required is to prevent electrical shock drowning a from a badly wired boat/marina. If the electricity starts to go to ground, the water in this case, the GFCI shuts it off.

BRyan

 

[dpmulvey]

That is part of it. As we make boats more and more like homes there are considerations that must be put in place because water is not land. Got it! However, this solution seems more of a bandaid than a solution.

 

[dpmulvey]

I wonder if a 12vdc only is the way to go?

 

[tdschafer]

Quick thought: what if you cut off the plug and hard wire the fridge. Then it craps out in a month (things do sometimes happen, especially to electrical). Would the warranty on the fridge be void because of the modified wiring?


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Todd