Ethical or legal issue?

M

majoma

Member
Oct 10, 2008
284
San Francisco
Boat Info
2000 340, V drive
Engines
Twin 7.4


Justbefore selling my 2000 Sea Ray 3 ½ years ago I had to replace both thedefective tachometers therefore indicating only a few hours on the engines. Theboat was advertised with the real hours on it (about 400). Now I see the sameboat for sale again and advertised with engines hours below 400 while the real hoursare close to 800 (big difference).
Isthe seller supposed to reveal the right number of hours or is it up to thebuyer to find that out?
 
IANAL - but I'm pretty sure that's fraud. Not sure if the statutes cover boats, but most states have laws covering odometer fraud
 
If someone thinks lower hours means you get healthier engines, let them. Why involve yourself, nothing good will come of it.
 
I certainly agree that I wouldn't involve myself (unless i happened to personally know someone thinking about purchasing said boat).
 
Typically the accurate hours can be pulled off of the engines direct. The gauges on the dash are for convenience. One of my boats required the port engine key to be in the accessory position for the radio to work which logged as hours on the dash gauge. Port engine showed many hours more use then they starboard but the info off of the motors told the true story. Not sure if all engines are like that but that's how the 3 boats I have owned worked. I would think a good surveyor would detect this.


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majoma said:


Justbefore selling my 2000 Sea Ray 3 ½ years ago I had to replace both thedefective tachometers therefore indicating only a few hours on the engines. Theboat was advertised with the real hours on it (about 400). Now I see the sameboat for sale again and advertised with engines hours below 400 while the real hoursare close to 800 (big difference).
Isthe seller supposed to reveal the right number of hours or is it up to thebuyer to find that out?
Click to expand...
What boat is it? I wouldn't want anyone I know looking at something that is not actually the correct hours.
 
Legally, I don't know....

Ethically, if you know of fraud then you have an obligation...I'm not sure this rises to fraud because whoever posted the boat online might not be aware. But, it's clearly misrepresentation and should be exposed.

I don't understand the "don't get involved" mentality...Clearly you take a risk by speaking up...As you would if you saw a woman being hit or something else unethical.

Your question was ethics not if you should or shouldn't say something. Yes, the owner should represent the correct amount of hours and I believe, ethically, you should make the broker aware.
 
When we bought our 400 a few weeks years ago, the tachs had been changed out and the owners advertised the hours as a couple of hundred more than the tachs showed. During the survey I had the marina check the hours off of the engines as mentioned above. They were a couple of hundred higher than advertised. In my case, I didn't feel the owners were trying to deceive me. They actually apologized and then we renegotiated. It's a pretty easy check and well worth it for a buyer. If a seller knows the hours are higher and still claims the lower number, well that's really not the key mr of person I would deal with.
 
If the current seller is aware there are well over 400 hours on the engines and doesn't offer that info in any way, to me it's an ethical issue.
And depending on local law, it could be a legal issue.

If you choose to take action with the current seller/broker, I suggest using a "Do you know" approach rather than a "You're misrepresenting" approach: "I owned this boat previously. I'm not sure if you're aware, but I had to replace the tachometers just before selling, and had recorded 400 hours at time of repair, so advertised as xxx hours upon selling." Regardless of whether that person updates the ad, anything you know is fair game if a personal acquaintance looks into buying it.
 
majoma said:


Justbefore selling my 2000 Sea Ray 3 ½ years ago I had to replace both thedefective tachometers therefore indicating only a few hours on the engines. Theboat was advertised with the real hours on it (about 400). Now I see the sameboat for sale again and advertised with engines hours below 400 while the real hoursare close to 800 (big difference).
Isthe seller supposed to reveal the right number of hours or is it up to thebuyer to find that out?
Click to expand...
They advertise it as repowered. If it was done after your ownership that could explain it.

If it wasn't, maybe the broker didn't understand what he was told and generated a less than accurate add....or maybe they're just scammin', either way I'd do as trlflgrl suggests
 
Why not call the seller and let him know of your observation and perhaps he will do the right thing.
 
You sold the boat 3 1/2 years ago. That was a long time ago and you have no idea what has gone on in the interim. Maybe it was re powered. Unless you know for sure what has been done with it, or changed on it, I would stay out of the whole thing.
 
What mechanical tests (compression, oil analysis, etc) are available to distinguish between a boat with 800 hours vs. 400 hours?

I think a deliberate attempt to misrepresent is wrong, but on the other hand there seem to be a lot of potential wear differences between any two boats with identical engine hours (ie, run WOT or at moderate RPM), along with the usual caveats about boats with low engine hours having their own potential problems from under-use. At the end of the day there seem to be a lot of places where boat condition can be judged and engine hours alone is a weak marker.
 
I didn't read your initial post as a question as to whether you should get involved unless you edited it. Rather, I thought you were asking if the current seller has a legal or ethical duty to disclose.
Each state is different but generally speaking private sales are buyer beware. So, the presumption is the buyer takes it "as is" and has the duty to discovery its condition. However, that can be trumped if the seller actively conceals or knowingly misrepresents a condition that a reasonable person may not otherwise discover. For example, if you mount a permanent wall hanging over a structural defect that you know about and the buyer cannot reasonably discover it without demo'ing the wall, then that's fraudulent concealment if you fail to disclose. If the seller here is representing that the hours are X and knows they are not I am not sure a reasonable buyer is going to be expected to check an ECU unless there is some other reason to suspect a discrepancy. I would argue the seller had the right to rely on the current tachs without more info. If the seller has been told the boat has been repowered but the engines clearly don't look like it, then that may cause the buyer to be obligated to investigate further. Each situation would be very fact specific and arguments could be made on both sides.
 
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If the seller says hour meter reading is 375 and it is he is correct. If he say engines have 375 hours and he knows it has 800 that is false advertising. Based on reading many boat adds from brokers there is a statements "Items represented to the best of out knowledge". If you are really concerned call the listing agent tell him you owned the boat and if he needs any information on it he can contact you.
 
I see reported engine hours as more than an indicator of how much use the engines have gotten. It's an indicator of how much use the whole boat has gotten. A seller would be right in bragging up low engine hours due to a repower but I think he also should report total hours on the boat, the whole drive line has been spinnin' all that time, other systems have many more hours of useage.

I know we should never assume anything but let's face it, the comment 'it's a low hour boat' or a 'it's a high hour boat' give a buyer impressions of more than just the engines.

Whatever the case a sale is pending. It's a CSR member that's selling...I wonder who's buying it.
 
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