Dinghy Outboard Motor Winterizing Questions

[rondds]

Alex
The valve needs to stay open while running. Otherwise the motor can't draw fuel from the tank once the air in the tank runs out and the engine will stall. Just remember to close that valve when you stow the engine or the contents of the taank will spill out (if you don't store it upright)

 

[Alex F]

Ron,

What you said makes sense to me and looks like what manual kind of implies, but I'm puzzled about what took place at seatrial, when the motor wouldn't perform with the air valve open, but when I closed it and made another attempt it took off like it's soposed to. Very strange, but it was a fact. The guy's explanation was that the valve needs to be open only to start and worm up the motor. I didn't know any better and the test run kind of proved his theory. I guess, I'll have to wait for the next season to do more tests.

 

[osd9]

I can see where you might get a little more 'umpf' from the little motor with the valve closed, as it would probably cause you to run rich from lack of air. I'll have to try it next season and see if there is any change. But in any case, I agree with Ron, l always leave the vent open when the motor is running....shut the valve after every use.

 

[rondds]

Alex, think of it like this...
Whey you pour gasoline out of a red gas can, if you don't open the vent at the top of the can, the gas will sort of trickle out slowly and unevenly. As soon as you open the vent, the gas starts pouring like crazy. Same thing happens with the outboard, and the lack of air entering the tank makes you lose rpm as you starve the carb for gas. It doesn't have to do with the air/gas mixture, as if you were closing the choke. The amount of air to the engine is the same- it's the gasoline that's not getting there.

 

[Alex F]

Ron,

I totally agree and know what you mean. But, it was strange that on the day I was testing the motor the logic worked in revers. This could be just a coinsident, but I recall 100% that when the air vent was open the motor couldn't get to optimum RPMs to get my 6.5' dinghy on plain. I was shocked, b/c I had intention to use the motor with larger dinghy (8'-9'), so this was a show stopper for me. As soon as the PO told me to close the air valve, the motor took off like it just gained another 5HP. It had not problem getting my little dink on plain. After that I was satisfied with the performance.

So, only based on that test I can only draw a pleniminary conclusion that when the air vent is open the motor gets too reach on air and doesn't perform well. Also, considering that when I shut off the fuel supply (during my winterization process yesterday) it took long time for the motor to use all of the fuel from the bowl. So, I'm thinking that with air vent closed the fuel trickles out slowly, but fast enough to keep the bowl filled before engine uses what's left in there.

At this time I can only go by what I had observed on two occasions the motor was running, the rest I'll have to experiment next season.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Ron is right on with his explanation. Another way to think about it is like putting your finger over a straw. If you don't let air in, the fluid won't go out.

I've been thinking about why closing the valve worked for you. This is a just a theory, but, tell me what you think, guys:

Have you ever been using a portable tank and the engine seems to starve for fuel - like the fuel just isn't making it to the engine? From my experience, some type of pressure has usually seemed to build up inside the gas line - usually after the bulb and before the fitting that goes onto the engine. Well, whenever this has happened, I've taken the gas line off the engine, then pressed the "ball" in with a small screwdriver to relieve the pressure - usually air escapes. Put it back on and everything is fine.

So, in your case, maybe by closing the valve, it helped to relieve the pressure in the line (or in the case of a built-in tank, whatever is between the bottom of the tank and the carb). I would suspect (and expect), though, that if you continued to run with the valve close, the engine would eventually starve.

 

[Alex F]

Dennis,

So following your theory I have another question, why would the engine run too reach on air with the valve open? Is it possible that it had to be opened just a bit to allow just enough air in, while I had it open too much?

BTW, while running with the air valve closed I had the boat on plane for a little while, came of plane and got back on plane few times. SO, I'm sure I've burned whatever amount of fuel was getting in the bowl multiple times.

I know that it's strange, but I'm just telling you what I had observed.

 

[rondds]

Ohhhhhhh! Sorry Alex. I now see what you were saying. It ran to full RPM with valve closed. That makes absolutely no sense - I'm thinking it's some sort of weird coincidence. You may have to play with the hign and low speed jets or maybe if the thing sat a while it's gunked up with oil. OR maybe its just that damn ethanol at it again!

 

[Lazy Daze]

I know that it's strange, but I'm just telling you what I had observed.

Don't worry, no one is discounting your experience. Just trying to figure out why that happened as it contradicts physics.

I assume Ron cleared up the question you asked me.

How long did you run the engine with the valve closed? And, is this an external, portable tank or an integral tank?

 

[Alex F]

I was thinking along the same lines as Ron that there's always a chance for some strange coinsident (bad fuel, ethanol, etc.).

How long did you run the engine with the valve closed? And, is this an external, portable tank or an integral tank?

I'd say roughly 10-15 min. This motor has integral tank.

 

[fwebster]

The air valve on the tank is really the tank's vent. Air must replace the fuel you burn out of the tank of the engine will die from fuel starvation since its fuel pump is pulling against a vacuum. When the engine is running the valve must be open; close it when you store the tank.



Something I did not see mentioned in the above discussion on winterizing outboards was mention of the fuel. Fogging alone isn't good enough. Tests done by Mercruiser show that fuel begins to degrade after 15 days and ethanol blended fuels will go to varnish in a few weeks.

If at all possible, completely empty all residual fuel out of your motors then, if you can, get some non-ethanol fuel, treat it with 2X the normal amount of stabilizer and run that thru the engine until you are sure you are running on fresh stabilized fuel. Then turn off the fuel valve or disconnect the fuel line and run the engine until it begins to sputter. Play with the choke to keep it running as long as possible so you burn all the fuel out of the carburetor bowl. Even a little fuel left behind will gum up the carburetor.

 

[osd9]

From post #14...

.......The only thing I do differently for the winter, actually I do this around the September time frame, is that I add some stabilizer to the fuel.......

.......Something I did not see mentioned in the above discussion on winterizing outboards was mention of the fuel. .......

I learn good sensee!!!!:grin:

 

[Alex F]

Frank,

Thanks for your input. Your statement proves Ron's and Dennis's point and I'd have to consider that what I had experienced on the day the engine was tested a pure coinsident of bad fuel clearing at the same time I closed the air valve. I always thought that any tank (fuel, water, etc.) should have air pressure releave valve, but since this is my first outboard I thought they might have different setup. I guess, physics can't be changed. It is what it is.

I guess, I should mention that the motor was running a little rough and wouldn't idle without stolling, even after the WOT test. I simply figured that it might need a little tune up and idle adjustment. I just used this behavior against the seller to lower the price compensating for the tune up.

While I was preparing the engine for winter storage, first thing I did was just running it for a little while and see if I can tune something myself. It was runnig rough at idle. I took the plug out and it had brown burned layer, but nothing that I would consider an issue. I didn't have new plug, so I cleaned the old one with sand paper and regapped the plug. This helped just a little, but it would stole at idle. Next thing I did was spraying some carb cleaner several times, thinking that something might be not clean in the carb. Finally, I adjusted the idle screws a bit to allow a bit higher RPMs to keep it running and not stole.

All of the above could simply mean not clean or just very old fuel, or just something wrong with that fuel (I hope, not the motor). Since I had time limit I just shut off the fuel supply valve and ran the engine until it shutdown, then I drained all the old fuel from the tank and proceeded with the rest of the items required for storage (fugging, oil changes, etc.).

 

[rondds]

Frank
Do you still have to "fog" a 2 stroke?

 

[rcknecht]

Alex,

I have 2 HP honda... It is air cooled (4 stroke), but I still run it in a bucket of fresh water... I drain the fuel... I never fogged it... Do you fog you lawn mower??? BTW, It has only 2 hours on it I have not started it in 5 years... Since it is a Honda, I would bet it would start right up today.

I think running it in fresh water is very important... I had a outboard when I was a kid, one season I forgot to run it in fresh water, and it never ran again, and it was air cooled...

Thanks for the tips guys,

Ron,
Did your motor have flushing fitting or is this something new they resently starting to come with? The unit is closer to 60lb. I do have a stant and fabricated large garbage can for running it when at home. I was trying to understand how that flushing fitting works so I can flush it next season after using the dink during the weekends.

I'm planning to stor the motor in my garage. I don't think it gets to a freezing point, but I'll do a quick test to see where the water intake is and see if I can supply some pink, if it's not a big deal. I don't want to overkill a simple task either. Basement is an idea. I guess, if the fuel is out it shouldn't stink so much the surrounding area. May be covering it with large garbage bag will help as well.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Do you fog you lawn mower???

I do:smt001 I fog anything that has moving parts. Weed whacker, chain saw, 2-cycle outboard. Anything. I can't see how putting some light-grade oil on metal parts can do anything but help protect them.

 

[osd9]

I'm not getting fogging a two cycle motor. The fuel has oil in it.....when it runs out of fuel....it's basically fogged...no??? I understand that fogging oil is thicker and sticky-ier and all that , but I'm just not buying it. If you read some of the merc manuals for 4 strokes (I don't remember where) it says to put 2 cycle oil in a fuel supply to long term store.

 

[fwebster]

While the little Hondas are almost bullet proof, they are not immune from old or stale fuel problems. In fact, I have one and know for a fact that the carburetor orifices are very small. Unless you run the carburetor completely out of fuel, after 6 months, it isn't going to run the next time you try it because of varnish formed by stale fuel.

Ron-
I don't fog my 2 strokes because I run them on a 25 to 1 fuel mix, oil to non-ethanol fuel + 2X the required amount of stabilizer. I crank them and let them run long enough to get the winter mix in the engine. stop them, pour out all the fuel then crank rthem and let them run until I run all th e fuel mix completely out and the motor quits on its own.........The only real difference between this and fogging is that whatever is left in the fuel system is stabilized. But remember, I'm in the south and we weed-eat and use leaf blowers until about Thanksgiving in Tennessee and all winter in Florida.

 

[Lazy Daze]

I'm not getting fogging a two cycle motor. The fuel has oil in it.....when it runs out of fuel....it's basically fogged...no??? I understand that fogging oil is thicker and sticky-ier and all that , but I'm just not buying it. If you read some of the merc manuals for 4 strokes (I don't remember where) it says to put 2 cycle oil in a fuel supply to long term store.

Dom, I think the difference is the ratio of 2-cycle to gas. A 2-stroke typically uses about 2-2/3 oz per gallon (50:1). When I "fog" my V-8, I put about 2+ oz into the spin-on fuel canister (plus I add extra stabilizer there, even though I use stabilizer year round). That's certainly a much lower ratio than 50:1. I don't know how much the filter holds or how much more fuel enters the filter during the process, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 10:1.

I may be off on this comparison, but bear with me and let's assume that the 50:1 ratio gives a 2-stoke the same lubricating properties as does the engine oil in a 4-stroke (although I think the 2-stroke might actually have a little more lubrication). But, for sake of argument, let's call the two engines "even" in regards to lubrication. We still add fogging fluid (or 2-cycle oil) to a 4-stroke, so I think it makes sense to add it to the 2-stroke for long term lay-up.

Do you recall how much 2-cycle those 4-stroke outboard manuals say to put into the fuel? Meaning, what ratio of gas to oil?

The way I fog an outboard is as the engine is just starting to die out (from having no gas)... that's when I start shooting the fogging oil in. I try to let it die from no gas as I'm still fogging it. I'll usually then shoot a little extra in after it dies and then turn the engine over a few times (without starting it). Smokes like crazy in the Spring for the first minute, but I know the internals are protected.


This is a good thread - lot's of good discussion!

 

[rondds]

In preparation for the inevitable, I just started my snow blower for the first time since, like, February. It started right up. I did change the crankcase oil and that looked pretty skanky. All I used was startron. My pushmower (a Murray I bought in Kmart in 1995) has never been fogged or winterized or anything and runs like a top - even starts on the first pull in april. Weed wacker is going on 10 years of service, never winterized or drained either. Leaf blower, chipper/shredder, same thing. All are stored in my garage or in my shed and always have been. I did have to pull the carb out of the weed wacker and soak it in gumout, but that was the during the of the inception of E-10 round these parts (2006??).

Frank, you did tell me I am a lucky dude! I admit, I'm lax with the lawn equipement - NOT WITH THE BOAT!