Did you see the 460 DA on yachtsalvage?

Comnsark, Jaws did extensive research on the coring of 460DA's and determined when exactly SeaRay deleted the cored hullsides. Even after they went to solid hullsides, they continued to core the bottom, so his point was that this example has BOTH cored sides and bottom.

As far as 40' seas go - you might be better off than in 10' seas. Rolling side to side and traversing up and down waves doesn't put as much stress on a boat as pouding does. So it's about wave frequency, not height.

That's one of the misconceptions about "coastal cruisers" and "lake boats". The Great Lakes rarely produce 40 foot waves, but they produce frequent, pounding waves all the time and a 46 SeaRay MUST be built to withstand them.

Jaws, yeah, I too noticed a lot of growth on the bottom. I also noticed that the bootstripe and bottom paint had been repositioned about 6" higher than normal. (presumably to account for a heavy craft residing on the lift?)

I assumed the spots I saw on the bottom were drill areas when they tested the core?
 
I think I know the the partial story of this boat. Back in August, I was speaking to the surveyor when my AJ was being surveyed for the buyer. He was complaining that he had to fly to New York the next day since he was being sued by an insurance company for not finding a wet core on an 01 460 DA. He explained that the boat was bought in Florida and the owner was in a hurry to get it back to New York. On the way to NY, in the Atlantic, somewhere off the Carolinas, they were running in something like 12' seas, and the engines came off the stringers. The story matches the boat, the damage and the location.

Anyhow, he said the insurance company paid the the claim to the owner, then the insurance company was suing him. Sea Ray was also going to the negotiations table. I don't know the final outcome, but the surveyor was thinking about leaving the business over it.

Brian
 
Mystic Dreamer said:
........ and the engines came off the stringers........
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one word.....WOW!!!.....:wow:

IMHO......12' seas or not, engines shouldn't come off the stringers....

Plus.....why would insurance even cover this if it is was in fact a wet coring issue? What did the owner claim....he ran into a wave?????:huh:
 
I would guess that the owner argued that he was unaware the boat was not structurally sound when he bought it. Since he and the insurance company relied on the survey, the insurance company will pay the claim. Typically, the manufacturer is involved in the financial settlement if it is structural.

I'm making this up but I would expect a claim would state: "that cored hulls have a long history of water intrusion that may result in the structually instability of the hull and supporting structure". And that "Sea Ray has been well aware of this problem and the potential for serious failure". I'm sure you can find an engineer that will testify that the cored hull contributed to the stringer failure.

The surveyor should get out of the business. He made a mistake that we all probably can relate to in our lives.....not doing the job he was hired to do. Regardless of an owner wanting to "get it done", he knew better and shouldn't have taken the job. He is lucky they survived.

The owner or his Captain is also responsible for putting the boat into severe conditions. But in the funny world of maritime insurance, the fact that the boat had structual issues (however minor) which were missed during the survey is the issue.

-John
 
Yeah. . .wow.

So if I get the story straight. . .

.. ..some rich schlep buys a boat.

. ...rich schlep is in a hurry, but despite being in a hurry he doesn't skip steps; he gets the boat surveyed; he obtains appropriate insurance.

.. .. with all the stars aligned, he takes the boat from FL to NY. Is he rushing things? I dunno. If I lived in NY and bought a boat in Fl, I would probably start the journey North sooner rather than later. He wasn't in such a hurry that he trailered the boat North. And how long to you have to ply the ICW in Fl to figure out your stringers are shot? Not many 12' waves on the ICW.

So you start North, and then the boat falls apart underway. . . .boy. I would NOT want to have had been on that boat that day. Can you picture it? You buy a boat. You take it out, hit some weather, and the thing starts to fall apart! I mean YIKES!

Once engines come off the motor mounts. . what are you gonna do? In 2-4' waves. . .clearly you shut them down, break out a bottle of whiskey and moan your sorrows. In 12' waves? Do you have a choice to shut down the engines? Do you have a choice *not* to shut them down? I bet one mount failed first, then they tried to limp to shore on the second engine -> until that engine started moving around. <<Shudder>> Is your first call to SeaTow or to the Coast Guard? I guess that's the beauty of VFH radio. You can call for everybody at once. I wonder if you make the call after the first engine died, or after the second.

I wonder what the real story is here. I think this is a good case for always having insurance.
 
I'm with Playdate to an extent. (I was watching TV, so my response took too long)

Both insurance company and owner relied on the Survey. OF COURSE they are going after the Surveyor. I can't say if the Surveyor missed something he shouldn't have. If the boat has cored stringers, and he didn't take samples: Shame on him. He messed up. If he did take samples, it is still possible they came up clean. Then it's just a question of bad luck.

I agree the owner/captain is responsible for putting the boat in severe conditions. I agree that there lives were *seriously* at risk. On one level. . .what the heck were they doing out there, and not drinking at the marina? On another level. . .I suppose this is why you have insurance. . .
 
J Levine said:
....Have convinced me that buying an older cored Sea Ray some day is just not for me. I can deal with power train and other mechanical and electrical problems on an old boat but this problem is nothing I want to even think about.
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I thought that the 95-99 Sea Ray Sundancers had cored hull.

"...The PowerBoat Guide had this to say:

..... The introduction in 1995 of the 370 Sundancer was yet another of the company's evolving series of Sundancer models, each a little nicer than the last, and each a little more expensive. Built on a fully-cored hull, the Sundancers interior seems unusually spacious, perhaps because the aft stateroom--......."

PS: Just a question , I have the same boat as yours.
 
In my calls to Sea Ray regarding the 460 during my research (460DA vs. 480DB), I was told that all 460DA models had fibreglass stringers and had no structurally encapsulated wood (like some of the earlier 480DB models that we looked at). I am not sure which is better but Sea Ray did make the change to non-encapsulated stringers in the 480 somewhere around late 1999. That being said when my 460 was surveyed last month the surveyor made an interesting comment on how these stringers are made and perhaps someone with more knowledge may want to add their thoughts. He said that wood may be used in the forming of the non-encapsulated stringer (note: it's not a solid product), but the wood is not a structural component. So, non-encapsulated is a bit of a misnomer.

Sea Ray told me how to differentiate encapsulated from "non-encapsulated" stringers in the 480 but that's not an issue in the 460 'Dancer. Looks like the conditions of the accident broke the back of the boat. The hull twisted and chines cracked allowing the stringers to fail at the point of most stress,...at the motor mounts while the engines were producing a lot of torque (or twisting power).

I would not buy a car if I knew that it had previously been in an accident that bent the frame. Following that, I'm not really sure that the wet coring has anything to do with this failure. Maybe it started a chain of events or maybe the wet coring was resultant after the fact from cracked gelcoat and the subsequent water intrusion. My point is that Sea Ray didn't necessarily have blame here. Yes, they build their boats a certain way but I've seen Carver hulls (non-cored but thinner) crack in lesser conditions. My research told me to buy a Sea Ray despite the objections from a few acquaintances who obviously had different opinions.

Just some thoughts: maybe I'm wrong but I read Pascoe's articles and PBR before making my previous decisions.
 
Remember that boat on Ebay for $100K, that needed "minor cosmetic work"; along with engines that were "properly pickled"?

I guess asking $250K for this boat is no different than SeaRay listing a boat for a full 30% over the likely sales price. You don't find out what the boat is really worth until you start money-on-the-table negotiations.

So how much is a boat like this really worth? Not every day you see boats advertised with crumpled stringers and a soggy hull. Is it worth any more than parts value? And what would the parts be worth, $50K-$75K?

What's really scary is what happens in 12 monthes. Someone buys the boat for $150K; does "repairs" and puts the boat back on the market. So. . after the boat is repaired. .. what would it be worth? I can hear the pitch now: Yes, the boat had a stringer problem. It was fixed. A wet core in these six areas was also identified and repaired. They have been fixed. Here is a survey that shows the boat in good condition as of 12/06. The boat has been fully refurbished. Look at this new cool chartplotter! Go get a survey, and here's a contact for a good insurance company. . . .

And that assumes an above boards broker deal! Someone who fixes the boat can list it with a third party broker. . .who personally doesn't know much beyond "oh, here's a guy selling a boat. Yeah, I can sell that!"


What are the disclosure rules for a boat like this? The guy buying this shipwreck today is buying a shipwreck. What more information will he get beyond "Shipwreck: we don't know if it runs or floats. Sold as-is." What additional information will the buyer be provided with? Will he interview the previous owner? Will the previous owner tell the straight story, considering that there may be a few very embarrassing -but crucial- details that may be different than what went on the insurance form?

So. . .the boat is fixed, and all the known defects are fixed. What information passes on to the next buyer? I mean, it's one thing if there are *known defects*. But there are NO *known defects*. Do defects that have been fixed have to be disclosed? Will buyer #2 interview the guy who owned it when it nearly sank? What of defects the guy who refurbished the boat *never found*?

Like buying a car: Most people would not buy a car that had frame damage. But how do you find out it had frame damage? You can find out if the car had been *totalled*. But you don't find out if the $30,000 car got $15,000 in repairs.
 
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When I was boat "shopping" a broker who was showing me a boat pointed to a Sea Ray (don't know model/year) across the basin and told me that it's hullsides had to be peeled and the core replaced due to the core not being sealed around the engine vents.
My question is- what kind of quality control exists at Sea Ray? This is a no brainer- even an idiot knows you can't just cut a hole into a cored hull and not seal/pot the exposed core. I just don't understand how it can happen on such a broad scale- not an isolated incident- rather a systemic problem?
 
I stand by the statement that these are coastal cruisers not intended for high speed blue water boating.

And to answer someone's question "What do you do in a 460Da when you hit 12 ft waves.......?" It is simple....you slow the stupid boat down, you don't speed up to get there sooner.

I own a predecessor boat to the 460DA and I run 2 different 460DA's regularly for friends and I've seen 10-12' seas in all of them. When we finally got where we were going, I was sick of all of them, tired of being wet with spray and ready to stand on the ground, but I never broke anything and certainly didn't "crush the stringers"........I just slowed down.
 
I thought it was rather ironic that the link on John's message brought up the boat in question in South Carolina listed as a "Dundancer". Gallows homour?

Frank's right; someone simply broke this boat and the coring and stringer issues may not have had any role here.
 
Jaws said:
Frank's right; someone simply broke this boat and the coring and stringer issues may not have had any role here.
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This is all speculation. No one on this board appears to know the facts. It would be interesting to know how many of these boats were built and what is the nature of the problems they have, if any. For the kind of money we pay, there should be more data to look at like with airplanes for example.
 
The powerboat guide is often wrong on this subject. Our 370's were built at Merrit Island and have solid bottoms as do all 370's DAs as I think anything else that came out of Merrit Island does. Just to be 100% sure I verifed this with Sea Ray customer service before I bought the boat (used).

Jon
 
fwebster said:
I stand by the statement that these are coastal cruisers not intended for high speed blue water boating.

And to answer someone's question "What do you do in a 460Da when you hit 12 ft waves.......?" It is simple....you slow the stupid boat down, you don't speed up to get there sooner.

I own a predecessor boat to the 460DA and I run 2 different 460DA's regularly for friends and I've seen 10-12' seas in all of them. When we finally got where we were going, I was sick of all of them, tired of being wet with spray and ready to stand on the ground, but I never broke anything and certainly didn't "crush the stringers"........I just slowed down.
Click to expand...

What Frank said. I've been out on 10+ footers on craft ranging from my PWC to my 26 footer to my current boat. You simply slow down. Safety of the crew and vessel is the responsibility of the captain. Not the manufacturer. Not the surveyor. Not the insurance company.

RollerCoastr said:
Not intended for high speed blue water boating? I agree.

Is it excusable for stringers to be crushed? NO.
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That seems contradictory. A sports car, say a BMW Z3 isn't intended for high-speed running off-road. So when the owner is faced with a closed highway and decides to run off road, the suspension shouldn't get bent and broken just because he was doing 60 over the trails?

On the other hand, no one here knows what happened off-shore, so it's all just more cyber-hot air.

Best regards,
Frank C
 
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