Cummins 450C 6CTA – Cooling Change

[Alex F]

I’m getting ready to change cooling on my mains and Onan generator. I’ll be buying the Fleetguard ES Complete coolant from local Cummins supplier, but I was wandering if someone can give me tips on what are the proper steps to change the coolant on these new to me engines and genny. I'm sure it's not a difficult DIY task, but I would prefer to hear some tips from folks who's done it before.

Thanks,
Alex.

 

[autovette]

It's easy...take out the old stuff and replace it with the new stuff...Presto !~

 

[alnav]

For my QSB engines, Cummins recommends a cooling system flush every 2 years or 500 hours concurrent with changing out the coolant. The flush involves draining and filling with diluted Fleetguard RESTORE cleaning product, running the engine for an hour, drain (after engine cools to 120 degrees) and fill with fresh water, run for 5 minutes then drain and fill with new coolant. I think the recommendation and procedure was the same when I had 450's. If your coolant is pretty dirty or you otherwise believe you have scale in there you might want to do the full procedure instead of just draining and replacing the old coolant.

 

[Alex F]

For my QSB engines, Cummins recommends a cooling system flush every 2 years or 500 hours concurrent with changing out the coolant. The flush involves draining and filling with diluted Fleetguard RESTORE cleaning product, running the engine for an hour, drain (after engine cools to 120 degrees) and fill with fresh water, run for 5 minutes then drain and fill with new coolant. I think the recommendation and procedure was the same when I had 450's. If your coolant is pretty dirty or you otherwise believe you have scale in there you might want to do the full procedure instead of just draining and replacing the old coolant.

Thanks Al,

Looks like there's a twist to the "simple" drain/refill process. My coolant was tested by cummins and mechanic said that it's just reach the level when it needs to be changed, it's not dirty, I guess just old enough.

Do you think I should still do the flush with RESTORE product?

Also, I've read that it's recommended to change coolant filters from original WF2071 to WF2073 or WF2074. Is this right? What's the reason for this change?

 

[alnav]

Alex, I've always found Cummins techs to be very reliable and if the guy who tested your coolant wasn't calling for a flush you probably don't need it. On the other hand, unless you know the engines' history and that it's been done at some point you might want to plan on doing the flush sometime soon.
Looks like the only difference between the WF2071 and WF2073 is the amount of coolant additive release tablets in the filter, the WF2073 having twice as much. I would suppose that experience with the engines must have shown that the lower amount was not providing enough additive. BTW, the WF2074 looks like it's a completely different filter that doesn't look like it would fit. If you go to www.cumminsfiltration.com and enter your engine parameters you should get the current recommended filter and I would go with that.
Another place you might want to explore is www.quickserve.cummins.com. If you enter your engine serial numbers here you can get limited info such as the current owner's manual, maintenance schedules, parts catalog and engine bulletins. For a subscription fee ($100) you get access to everything Cummins has published about your engine and up to 4 others. I got this for a year and it was well worth it as I learned the engine. I printed out everything I thought I would need and have let the subscription lapse.

 

[bmac]

Now I'm a bit worried. I've never seen a coolant filter on my QSC's, I wonder if there is one. Alex, where is the filter on your engine located?

 

[Alex F]

Alex, I've always found Cummins techs to be very reliable and if the guy who tested your coolant wasn't calling for a flush you probably don't need it. On the other hand, unless you know the engines' history and that it's been done at some point you might want to plan on doing the flush sometime soon.
Looks like the only difference between the WF2071 and WF2073 is the amount of coolant additive release tablets in the filter, the WF2073 having twice as much. I would suppose that experience with the engines must have shown that the lower amount was not providing enough additive. BTW, the WF2074 looks like it's a completely different filter that doesn't look like it would fit. If you go to www.cumminsfiltration.com and enter your engine parameters you should get the current recommended filter and I would go with that.
Another place you might want to explore is www.quickserve.cummins.com. If you enter your engine serial numbers here you can get limited info such as the current owner's manual, maintenance schedules, parts catalog and engine bulletins. For a subscription fee ($100) you get access to everything Cummins has published about your engine and up to 4 others. I got this for a year and it was well worth it as I learned the engine. I printed out everything I thought I would need and have let the subscription lapse.

Al,

Thanks for the info. It sounds like it's a good idea to spend $100 to get all the details about my engine.

Now I'm a bit worried. I've never seen a coolant filter on my QSC's, I wonder if there is one. Alex, where is the filter on your engine located?

Brian,
It's the one on the right (WF2071)

Here's another pic, the filter is the 1st one form the bottom right.

 

[Alex F]

Brian,

I just read on Tony's board that for QSCs the coolong filters weren't necessary. So, it's normal that you don't see them on your boat.

 

[bmac]

Brian,

I just read on Tony's board that for QSCs the coolong filters weren't necessary. So, it's normal that you don't see them on your boat.

Thanks, ALex. I did some research last night on my QSC's and found some Cummins literature from when they introduced the QSC in 2006. One of the advantages they noted was the elimination of the coolant filter, though I'm not sure it's such an advantage or what changed that they could just eliminate it. I was almost ready to head for the boat last night to look. For good reason I've never seen one on my engines and the filter doesn't show up in my owners manual, however, some suppliers list a part number for QSC's:huh:. Honestly, the QSC's being my only diesel experience I had never heard of coolant filters before your post. Ya learn something new every day on CSR!!!

 

[Four Suns]

You need to test the coolant with the Fleetguard Coolant test strips. You can get them here:

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/r...st-Kit-Strips-3-Way-Each/erm/productDetail.do

and here's some info on them:

http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT15068.pdf

Those test strips will give you an indication of what coolant filter model to put on the engine. The filters have different levels of SCA in them ranging from none to a lot (that's scientific language right there). For fresh coolant, you will use a filter with no SCA in it... but the test strips will tell you what you need to add.

As far as the flush, it's an all day affair. I did mine at 5 years... The instructions have you run the engine at operating temp for 30-60 minutes with the RESTORE product (a boat ride as an idle down the river don't get it to operating temp)... then you have to wait 2 hours for it to cool down... drain... fill with fresh water... another boat ride.... cool down... drain... fill with fresh water... another boat ride... cool down... drain... fill with coolant... another boat ride... cool down... top off coolant (there *will* be air in the top)...

So... that's my recollection of my manual and instructions with the Restore flush stuff...

 

[Alex F]

Gary,

Thanks for very helpful info. I'll by those test strips for future use. For this time around I'm going by what Cummins surveyor reported (he used the same test strips) that the coolant at the point where it needs to be changed.

The RESTORE process sounds like it's "cheaper" just to replace the coolant for $200 vs. spending all that fuel....LOL.....but I know there's a point where you just have to flush the system. I'm planning to change the coolant this time and monitor it's quality with the test strips. Will ones per season (I guess during winterizing process) be sufficient to do the test of the coolant?

I placed an order of lots of parts to my local Cummins marine dealer. I rbought up the question about different coolant filters and was advised that the original WF2071 is what needed if I replace the recommended Cummins Complete premixed antifreeze. Anything else might create filtration imbalance and may damage seals.

I'm having my local Cummins dealer do the aftercoolers, valves, engine allignment and few other things. I want to cover all necessary items and have clean start.

 

[Four Suns]

I guess my post about the RESTORE flush was confusing. It's not a replacement for the coolant. It's the defined protocol to change the coolant for my QSM-11. No where in the manual does it say to just swap the coolant and call it a day. There is a 5-year maintenance schedule and one of the items is changing out the coolant and the protocol to do that (outlined in the manual) is to flush the engine with RESTORE before putting the new coolant in the engine. The instructions for using the RESTORE product are such as I described above. Although I can't really pretend to know why they have this protocol, my guess is that there may be solids that precipitate out of the coolant over the years and it's a way to make sure all the scale from the water, any corrosion from the engine and coolant precipitates are removed.

As far as the WF2071 coolant filter... that filter adds 4 units of SCA (Supplemental Coolant Additive) to the system. I know my manual doesn't say to do that... maybe yours does.. but I would be surprised that there is a recommendation to add SCA to a new change of coolant. The test strips sure are not going to indicate that.

You really need to be careful on things like "The local Cummins guy told me blah blah blah." That is not a replacement for the manual. I got burned bad by the "this is what the local Cummins guy told me" which put me on the path just to maintain the engines myself. The "local Cummins guy" I had back when my boat was new was an idiot. He told me that the zincs in the fuel coolers didn't really need zincs which is why he didn't change them (he was a certified Cummins guy from the local authorized Cummins dealer). That cost me a new set of fuel coolers and the reason he didn't want to change the zincs is because they were hard to get to. I've also seen a few other posts on various forums that go against the published Cummins manuals... I'm just not in a position to override what the engineers at Cummins published versus what some mechanic thinks is better. For example, if your "local Cummins guy" tells you that you should add 4 units of SCA to a new coolant change, I would directly ask "Why do you recommend something that is not published in the Cummins manual? If new coolant needs 4 units of SCA, why didn't they just add that to the coolant when they made it?" Make him explain it... and "because" is not a good answer. If they also tell you to just swap the coolant and not flush the system at 5 years as the manual states, I would also ask "why?" Answers like "AHHH! That there manual is dumb" should raise a flag. Give a guy a Cummins mechanic uniform and a white truck with a Cummins logo on it and some people think he's God when in reality he might be a w!ngless. Not saying they are all bad and that there are not better ways to do things, but it's your responsibility to make sure they follow the approved protocols on engine maintanance and if they don't, they need to explain way.

Another one that is pretty popular with regards to selective reading/listening are the impeller changes. The manual clearly states that if a boat is to sit for an extended period of time, the impellers should be removed and stored in a cool dry place. But people ignore that piece... and just assume they can change them every 3 years because the guy in Florida who runs his boat every month gets away with every 3 years and surely that applies to a person who is in Michigan who stores his boat for 9 months. And the guy with the whimp a$$ little gas Tiara with impellers that fit in a Cracker Jack box gets away with 3 years in Michigan so surely that applies to 1800 series large impellers... you know... those Cummins engineers don't know what they are talking about...

But it's your boat... RTFM

Also... if you want to save some money, get an account with these guys:

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/ryder/

They carry all the Fleetguard stuff.

 

[autovette]

Gary, what color toilet paper should I buy and how should I install it?

 

[floriduramax1]

I have to agree with Gary on the Filter change. New coolant should not need additive. If you still are in doubt, do the flush, add the new coolant and use the strips. Follow the chart on the bottle and it will tell you what to add.

 

[Four Suns]

Gary, what color toilet paper should I buy and how should I install it?

I prefer this color:

and you have to call the Toilet Paper Czar to install it.

 

[floriduramax1]

I prefer this color:

and you have to call the Toilet Paper Czar to install it.

I don't know, I'd be afraid it would rub off :wow:

 

[techmitch]

Gary, although i am still (for now) a small gasser guy i can't thank you enough for taking the time once again to post very helpful and educational information, glad you are still around.

Thanks again, Mitch

P.S. still looking forward to The Book?

 

[Alex F]

Gary, what color toilet paper should I buy and how should I install it?

Had a rough night?

Very "useful" contribution to the thread. :smt021

 

[Alex F]

I guess my post about the RESTORE flush was confusing. It's not a replacement for the coolant. It's the defined protocol to change the coolant for my QSM-11. No where in the manual does it say to just swap the coolant and call it a day. There is a 5-year maintenance schedule and one of the items is changing out the coolant and the protocol to do that (outlined in the manual) is to flush the engine with RESTORE before putting the new coolant in the engine. The instructions for using the RESTORE product are such as I described above. Although I can't really pretend to know why they have this protocol, my guess is that there may be solids that precipitate out of the coolant over the years and it's a way to make sure all the scale from the water, any corrosion from the engine and coolant precipitates are removed. ....

Thanks for calrification, Gary. I'm trying to get the service manual from this site www.quickserve.cummins.com, but what a PITA. The site just throws bunch of errors during registration process.

At least now I understand that it's the required maintenance item and I should do the flush prior changing the coolant.

...As far as the WF2071 coolant filter... that filter adds 4 units of SCA (Supplemental Coolant Additive) to the system. I know my manual doesn't say to do that... maybe yours does.. but I would be surprised that there is a recommendation to add SCA to a new change of coolant. The test strips sure are not going to indicate that...

I don't think I understand your comments on the filter. My engines have WF2071 filters currently installed, the cummins tech said that as long as I use the same cummins complete coolant I should use the same filter. Are you saying that this is not valid suggestion or does your comments mean that yes, I shold use the same original filter?

....You really need to be careful on things like "The local Cummins guy told me blah blah blah." That is not a replacement for the manual....

I totally agree. Finding really good mechanic is extremelly hard. The guys I'll be using are the same guys our local MM uses all the time. I met the shop owner at the AC boat show and he left a good impression. I felt comfortable giving him the work. However, the more items I can validate the better off I'll be. So, your suggestions are very helpful.

 

[Greg]

Alex,

Not sure if you have this or not, but it talks a bit about the coolant filters. Go with what Gary says. You want the proper amount of SCA in the coolant, the test strips along with the system sizing charts will tell you how many units of SCA you need. The ES Compleat has the proper amount of SCA in it, when I changed mine I didn't start out with the 2071, maybe a 2070?

http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT32599_07.pdf

Also, Cummins make two different versions of Restore that I know of, Restore and Restore Plus. Restore is for Oil and Grease deposits, Restore Plus is for rust, corrosion, scale, and solder bloom.