clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. draining

[True North]

I followed the recommended winterizing procedures found on this site, but have since started thinking about my process and asking for advise.

'91 250DA 454 7.4L

For motor:
I drained all water by way of petcocks on the block, manifold.
Disconnected all hoses and drained
Took apart thermostat to take out and bypass thermostat to allow antifreeze to bypass
Hooked everything back up (hoses, thermostat housing without thermostat)
Ran 5 gallons of -100 antifreeze through the ear muffs through gravity pull from bucket on swim platform while motor running until came out lower unit

For Water system
ran pump until tank and all lines ran free of water.
drained hot water tank
filled water holding tank with pink 5 gallons. Ran pump for all faucets until pure pink came through.
poured more pink into all drains and toilet for good measure (waste tank was already drained and clean but "pumped" antifreeze into tank)
At the very end I disconnected the in/out line to the hot water heater


My questions:
1) Considering my cold climate (midMichigan), is it safer to drain and fill the motor with antifreeze and keep it in there, or drain, fill, drain thinking "antifreeze air" is even less likely to freeze?

2) is there a place to pour the antifreeze into the motor from the top (thermostat housing?) vs. runnig it through the system using ear muffs? Pros/Cons?

3) many threads talk about "bypassing" the H2O heater. How exactly is that accomplished. Do you just retrofit a part to connect the in/out hose going into/leaving the water tank and just drain the tank? If so, does anybody have a picture or explain what you use to connect the two? I'm assuming you can "make" something from parts form Home Depot, Lowes, etc.?

As always, thanks for helping out a newbie. I think I did everything right this fall, I just think what I did could potentially be done easier??? Thank you.

 

[Henry Boyd]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

By passing the water heater can be accomplished on the boats with the SeaTech fittings very easily by just removing the Sea Tech couplings from the cold and hot nipples on the heater and connecting them with a short piece of the pex tubing. If you have Sea Tech fittings, the tubing comes in 15mm and 1/2" sizes Sea Ray used both. Freshwatersystems.com carries both and has been a good source for me.

We resolved the ear muff issue when we installed a through hull water pickup that includes a connection for flushing. The flushing connection works great for introducing anti-freeze.

Personally, I'm a believer in keeping antifreeze in the engine because of the corrosion protection created, i.e. steel immersed in anti-freeze vs, bare steel in damp environment. I have no scientific support for, or against.

Henry

 

[JerryS]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Several points.

Water heater. You don't want to put any pink into your hot water heater. Steps: Disconnect cold water input to heater. Disconnect hot water output. Connect those two lines together. I am able to do that without any additonal fittings. Next, disconnect the input and output water lines from your engine and connect them together using a 6" piece of 1/2" copper pipe. Next, open the HWH drain and the pressure relief valve on your water heater, that will allow it to drain fully. That's it, you are done with the water heater.

Fresh water system: Do not pour pink into your tank! Pump as much water out of the tank as possible. Disconnect the input line to your water pump. Get about a 36" Water line from the big box store. Connect one end to your water pump. Stick the other end into a gallon bottle of pink. Turn the pump on and run your faucets until you see pink. Make sure you also open the wash down faucet if you have one.

Shower sump: If you have one, lift the center cushion in the mid berth. Lift the float switch to pump as much water out as possible. Then pour some pink in shower drain-enough to activate the pump. That's it, you are done with the water system.

 

[JimFromMD]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

3) many threads talk about "bypassing" the H2O heater. How exactly is that accomplished. Do you just retrofit a part to connect the in/out hose going into/leaving the water tank and just drain the tank? If so, does anybody have a picture or explain what you use to connect the two? I'm assuming you can "make" something from parts form Home Depot, Lowes, etc.?

Here's an example of a bypass that I use. You just disconnect the inbound/outboud connections from the HW tank and screw them onto both ends of this. This one is made from connectors/tubing, but they have kits at WM and other places like direct from CAMCO and also at RV stores.

 

[Henry Boyd]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Not trying to pick a fight, but here in New England not putting anti-freeze in the water tank that does not empty completely is a recipe for disaster.

Henry

 

[JerryS]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Right, when water freezes in a pipe, it's volume decreases and more incoming water fills in the space until the reduced water molecules fill the pipe. The pipe bursts when the water thaws and increases in volume. In a pipe the increased volume ends up bursting the pipe. How is it that a small amount of water in the bottom of a water tank is going to expand and burst the otherwise empty tanK?

 

[JimFromMD]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Right, when water freezes in a pipe, it's volume decreases and more incoming water fills in the space until the reduced water molecules fill the pipe. The pipe bursts when the water thaws and increases in volume. In a pipe the increased volume ends up bursting the pipe. How is it that a small amount of water in the bottom of a water tank is going to expand and burst the otherwise empty tanK?

Im no expert, but that sounds backwards to me. I thought when water freezes, the volume (amount) stays the same, but the space it occupies expands. (So a pipe full of water splits as it freezes, and becomes a gusher when it thaws). So with a nearly empty water tank, the tank wouldnt split as long as there was sufficient room for it to expand (upwards) in the tank as it freezes. Same way with a back yard swimming pool etc?

 

[ZZ13]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Fluid mechanics major in college here, but its thirty year old knowledge. Both JerryS and Jim are right. Water follows the typical fluid shrinking behavior but only down to about 4 degrees C. Then it gets all freaky and acts different and starts to expand at its freezing point up to 9%. So the line burst usually occurs at the freeze point and the leak occurs during the thaw.

Gosh I hope I remembered that correctly...

 

[JerryS]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

We do occassionaly get weather that holds in the teens for several days at a time in the winter, so, we do have to winterize properly. I never put put pink in my water tank. IMHO, a lot of pink is being used unnecessarily

 

[cod]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Here is a permanent by-pass set-up I installed. Basically you have a ball valve at the cold water inlet and a ball valve at the hot water outlet. Then you put a by-pass line connecting the two (hot and cold water line) with a ball valve. Under normal operation, the 2 valves at the inlet and the outlet stay open and the cross over valve stays closed. When winterizing you shut the valves at the inlet and outlet and open the by- pass valve. This allow the antitfreeze to by pass the hot water heater and fill the hot water lines. Open the hot water heater drain and pressure relief valve. The beauty of this set up is ther is no removal of any hoses.. Makes life easy......


View attachment 29747View attachment 29748

 

[JerryS]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

The three valve method is the way that it is done on my motorhome.

 

[True North]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Thank you all for responding. Very good ideas for future use. Considering the fact that this year I did put pink in my HWH, I do recall being told to NEVER turn it on with the pink inside otherwise you will never get rid of the smell, I was just planning on draining it, then flushing the entire system really well with water and small amounts of bleach if need be. I don't drink the water from the tank (that's what bottled water and margaritas are for), only for flushing toilet, brushing teeth and occasional dish cleaning. Definitely like the 3 valve method of thinking. Thanks for sharing.

 

[True North]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

one last point to clarify. If I utilize a 3 valve bypass system for the HWH, do I still need to disconnect the input and output water lines from the engine and connect them together using a 6" piece of 1/2" copper pipe? I guess I'm not sure if I even have that or what you are talking about? Does the warm water from the engine running somehow go through a heat exchanger in the HWH? I thought it was just an electric heating element? If so, what is the need to bypass the water lines to the motor doing for me? Sorry, first boat with a HWH and only used it a handful of times, so I am just learning the ins/outs....

 

[Alex F]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Here's my version of the bypass: http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/47691-HWH-Switched-from-antifreeze-to-air?highlight=

 

[JerryS]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

one last point to clarify. If I utilize a 3 valve bypass system for the HWH, do I still need to disconnect the input and output water lines from the engine and connect them together using a 6" piece of 1/2" copper pipe? I guess I'm not sure if I even have that or what you are talking about? Does the warm water from the engine running somehow go through a heat exchanger in the HWH? I thought it was just an electric heating element? If so, what is the need to bypass the water lines to the motor doing for me? Sorry, first boat with a HWH and only used it a handful of times, so I am just learning the ins/outs....

The HWH does have a heat exchanger for heating the water using the engine. You don't need to bypass those lines if you are going to put antifreeze in your engine.

 

[villain style]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

I'm not gonna kid you - this setup kinda brings a tear to my eye.. Very nice.

Here is a permanent by-pass set-up I installed. Basically you have a ball valve at the cold water inlet and a ball valve at the hot water outlet. Then you put a by-pass line connecting the two (hot and cold water line) with a ball valve. Under normal operation, the 2 valves at the inlet and the outlet stay open and the cross over valve stays closed. When winterizing you shut the valves at the inlet and outlet and open the by- pass valve. This allow the antitfreeze to by pass the hot water heater and fill the hot water lines. Open the hot water heater drain and pressure relief valve. The beauty of this set up is ther is no removal of any hoses.. Makes life easy......


View attachment 29747View attachment 29748

 

[Lazy Daze]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

You did a good job winterizing the engine and the way you did it (drain block, then remove the t-stat) is really the ONLY way to safely do it using the bucket method (muffs). But, to answer your question, yes there is another way to do it. Drain the block/manifolds, fuel cooler (if you have it) and raw water pump. Then you can add the AF through the hoses that are attached to your t-stat housing.

For the HWH bypass, it could be as simple as removing the lines and using an 8" - 10" piece of standard, 5/8" garden hose to connect the red and blue lines together. The plastic red/blue lines will fit snugly into the hose. The trick way to do it is as mentioned above with the valves. I have 15mm lines and it was going to take a bunch of connectors to make up a valve system. I wanted to keep it as clean as possible and considering I don't have a lot of room (smaller boat), I didn't want anything sticking out too far from the HWH. The ONLY "kit" I was able to find (maybe there's others - I wasn't able to find any) is made by Camco.

I also bought their water pump/fresh water holding tank bypass kit. I run my fresh water holding tank dry, and even though there is an inch or two left in the bottom, and it does freeze solid, there's not enough volume to cause a problem. With this kit, I just turn the valve, stick the clear vinyl hose into a gallon of AF (or a bucket that I dump a few gallons into) and this now becomes my new "fresh water holding tank" and I can turn on all the spigots/head/etc.

 

[JerryS]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

True North: Those two (2) black hoses that you see on the bottom of Dennis's HWH are the ones coming from the engine. I remove those and connect them together to bypass my HWH, but, you don't need to since you are putting AF in your engine.

BTW, those bypass jobs look good!

 

[rpasquarello]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Guys,

Which of these two kits would be the better way to go? They are relatively inexpensive and are ony about $10 apart in price.

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-35983-Quick-Permanent-By-Pass/dp/B0006JJ57Y/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-35953-Supreme-Permanent-By-Pass/dp/B000BQUJL8/ref=pd_rhf_cr_p_t_2_KG8H



Is this accessory worth it, too?

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-36543-Pump-Converter-Winterizing/dp/B0006JJ588/ref=pd_bxgy_auto_img_y

-Rocco-

 

[JimFromMD]

Re: clarification on "bypassing hot water heater" + leaving antifreeze in vs. drainin

Guys,

Which of these two kits would be the better way to go? They are relatively inexpensive and are ony about $10 apart in price.

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-35983-Quick-Permanent-By-Pass/dp/B0006JJ57Y/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-35953-Supreme-Permanent-By-Pass/dp/B000BQUJL8/ref=pd_rhf_cr_p_t_2_KG8H



Is this accessory worth it, too?

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-36543-Pump-Converter-Winterizing/dp/B0006JJ588/ref=pd_bxgy_auto_img_y

-Rocco-

Rocco. The last accessory was very worth it. In my setup, there was not room for either of the two first options for the bypass to work re way my tank was originally plumbed. It was easier to just disconnect the water heater intake and exit hoses and put the bypass in place screwing them together. Otherwise I would have had to redo how the original install was done which had extensions and right angle fittings. Ill try to take a picture tomorrow as I "un-bypass" the system for the summer.

James