Choices: 460DA vs 480DB

I do not own and have never run a 480DB, so this is second hand.

Gary and Pirate are the experts, but I recall Gary mentioning that SR did a lot of de-bugging of the 480DB in the 1999 (?)- 2002 time frame; adding fiberglass around the thru hulls to prevent water intrusion being a principal issue; this is a cored-hull boat, so this becomes a big deal.

Over to my learned colleague from the James Rivah-

Skip
 
In talking with Customer Service at Sea Ray Florida, I have come up with a couple of answers, but this is only what I was told. Depends who you talk to there, at times. All very nice, helpful people to deal with however.

460DA Always had fibreglass foam core stringers. All have cored bottoms. Had cored sides until hull 617. Fibreglass was used around thru hulls after some problems in the initial year (1999)

480DB Introduced 1998? but fully in 1999. Encapsulated wood stringers until some time in 2000 when they went with foam cored fibreglass stringers.. I believe that all bottoms are cored and the balsa delete on the sides started with hull 587.

The 460's I am looking at, one has cored sides, the other not and it really doesn't matter to me as long as I have a good professional survey done. I use an Electrophysics GRP33 moisture meter to do a preliminary hull check. The 480 that I have interest in has fibreglass stringers and cored sides.

I think the information is accurate but was given to me by the folks in Florida in several conversations.

James
 
Four Suns said:
How does one determine the hull number from the HIN number?
Click to expand...
Gary- It doesn't look like it's that easy... my hull number is 554, and those numbers don't appear in the HIN. OK, there is a 4 and a 5 in the HIN, but they aren't even in the right order. The hull number is written all over everything though...
 
On the boats that I have viewed the hull number, it is the three digit number on the second line right below the H.I.N. It usually starts with something like 480DB- ***

Sea Ray customer service can also give you the information. I found that some of the reps did not immediately know the hull build up schedule. They do phone back in a few minutes however.

Hope that helps.

James
 
James,

Once you get comfortable with engine choices, where do you stand on some of the options and equipment?

ie: on the 460DA:

-Lift
-thruster
-cockpit air/heat
-Sat TV
-Bose sound
-HT and galley porthole (std in '01)
-Maple vs. cherry
-Nav Electronics
-camper canvas
-flat screen (std in '04 - did some '03's get it too?)

on a 480DB:

-Lift
-(have yet to see one w/o a thruster)
-Bridge air/heat (std in '01?)
-Sat TV
-Maple vs cherry
-wood galley floor
-Salon tv: early floor level, later eye-level
- camper canvas
- nav electronics
-chromed entry door
-inverter

what'd I miss?
 
The hull identification number on Sea Ray boats begins with the letters SER which indicates the manufacturer and occurs on all SeaRays; no matter where they are made the 4th letter is a factory indicator. SERP is a Palm Coast boat; SERF and SERM are Merritt Island boats and SERY is a Sykes Creek boat.

The second number, usually right below the HIN# is an internal production number for Sea Ray. At some point, your dealer or Sea Ray customer service may need the production number to help you solve a problem but that will only be to refer back to the production records to see exactly how something was done on your particular boat in case some minor production methodology was changed from boat to boat in the production run.
 
RollerCoastr said:
James,

Once you get comfortable with engine choices, where do you stand on some of the options and equipment?

ie: on the 460DA:

-Lift
-thruster
-cockpit air/heat
-Sat TV
-Bose sound
-HT and galley porthole (std in '01)
-Maple vs. cherry
-Nav Electronics
-camper canvas
-flat screen (std in '04 - did some '03's get it too?)

on a 480DB:

-Lift
-(have yet to see one w/o a thruster)
-Bridge air/heat (std in '01?)
-Sat TV
-Maple vs cherry
-wood galley floor
-Salon tv: early floor level, later eye-level
- camper canvas
- nav electronics
-chromed entry door
-inverter

what'd I miss?
Click to expand...
Maybe we can help each other's search.

460DA:
-Cummins motors preferred (Frank's recommendation)
-lift: maybe (I'm looking at one of each) I have a different dinghy retrieval system from the last boat that I want to share on a new post some time. excellent at $5,000 if you have the standard small platform. As per the threads, you realize that TNT did the lifts through '00 then Florida Thrusters, etc. afterwards (you can tell from the side profile and the mechanics).
-this boat needs a thruster probably more than the 480
-cockpit air/heat: Yes, we would add a camperback because of our cooler climate and therefore benefit from the 16,000 BTU unit mounted under the companion seat.
-Sat tv: your choice, not a priority with us
-Bose: nice to have but can be added. The two 460's have it, 480 doesn't.
-we want the hard top esp. because of the climate and future resale value; notice that most of the new boats, Sea Rays and others, have it.
-cherry was the original goal but the maple "opens" it up more below. Vitricore veneers '01 and previous had problems with surface delamination. Company went out of business. They changed the cabinet finish, I was told, in '02. I like either.
-nav, electronics: that's important to a lot of people. But, I figure it's time to upgrade on a 6 or 7 year old boat. I ran computerized nav on the last boat with Nobeltec VNS. Liked it very much but it isn't quite as simple as Navionics or Garmin, but there's a lot more info. and NOAA charts are free to download. Not Canadian charts yet.
-camper: we would do it but purists say it takes away from the lines. I agree with that so consider white Stamoid (minimal) with large Stratglas areas. I like scrubbing my boat.
-flat screen: definitely I would move it to the wall as in '04? Maybe make or purchase the galley upper cabinet extension for an integrated look. That frees up the compartment above the refrigerator (for the nav CPU). Also cut a grill in the cabinet on the right of the fridge. Needs ventilation. They are 120/12V models that generate a lot of heat.

480:
-lift: The 480 can handle a lift better than the 'Dancer. Doesn't make it tail-heavy due possibly to motor location (straight shot inboards vs. V-drives) Again, I have a solution if it's a standard platform and you don't want to add a $25-30K hydraulic plarform.
-Bridge Air/heat: saw an '01 where it was added so it wasn't standard that year. In "01 they added the bridge door and shortened the bridge handrail to accomodate the door. Made sense for A/C-heat with the door. I've seen '01 480's with both one reverse air unit on the bridge or two. It's my opinion that you want this comfort. We use heat more than air.
-Sat tv: A lot of the 480's seem to have it; maybe as an add-on.
-Here I think Cherry warms up the large interior wheras in the 460, maple expands the smaller salon. But, that's my wife's view and women are better at these decorating/spatial issues than males???
-wood galley floor: definitely looks great in the 480
-tv location: IMHO both are goofy. In '99 the tv is really low. Then in '00 they changed the salon entry door to port when they added the two tub chairs. I assume the chairs forced the designers to put the tv up high. Is it too high? My opinion is that the shelf beside the cabinet is the correct viewing height for a flat screen.
-camper canvas: Do you think this is esthetically pleasing on the 480? That's personal. Maybe in white, OK but in a dark, in-your-face color? The camper gives you another sitting area but there's already so much space. Your call.
-nav. electronics: There was a previous thread about dual screens on the 480 bridge. I think that would be the ultimate.
-Chromed entry door was an option, I believe, through '01. It could be ordered alone or as part of a package. Expensive, but I think it looks great. It was probably standard after '01?
-Inverter: That's a great option to be added but you have to be careful. I put in a Xantrex system in previous boat (we anchor out) but you need to really beef up the battery banks (I went to all Trojan AGM's see Powerboat Reports). I understand that the SubZero units on the 480 are 110 volt AC and need the genny running. At anchor at night maybe that's where the inverter would be beneficial. "480 guys please help out."
-Motors: I'm still wrestling with the 3196 debate. They're strong and supposedly excellent when maintained (and checked out first by Cat). Can't find QSM's in my price range yet,.....

Hope that helps. That's just my opinion and there may be lots of dissention.

James
-
 
You are correct in that the sub-zero fridge is 110 (or 120 but who the hell cares) volts. Same for the sub-zero freezer and the fridge/freezer combo on the bridge. Unless you want the contents to go bad... you'll run the generator. You can hook an inverter up to the batteries and there are 2 D batteries in front of the engines for the bow thruster that are good candidates for that.
 
Guys, here's an observation or 2........

The 460DA is a great boat, but they tend to ride bow high. Additionally, the bow rise on acceleratioin leaves you completely blind for a few seconds and she breaks over on plane. With a hydraulic platform they are more stern heavy and the bow rise is worse. I run 2 460DA's regularly for friends and I find the bow rise to be very managable, but you really have to be careful in high trafic areas. I find the bow rise quite annoying compared to my boat which runs completely flat and never leaves you blind.

Delamination problem can occur on any boat with the Vitricore type cabinet faces, no matter who made it. The problem is the amount of airborne toxins emitted by the spray guns in the factory. EPA or Fla DEP tightly controls how much of what can be sprayed, so many boats leave the factory with barely enough glue behind the cabinet facing. If you ever see the Vitricore coming loose it will likely be in the convex or concave areas and it should be repaired as soon as possible so it doesn't crack or get damaged and you have to replace an entire piece rather then just have it re-glued.

Avoid maple interiors in anything if you are concerned about resale........very cold seller since it is cold feeling and not "yachty" looking, so much so that a maple boat will be the last one to sell and will usually go for less money. But, that works the other way too...if you just love a maple interior and find the right boat, use the maple interior to leverage the price down.

On the 480DA, avoid the first year of production unless someone has corrected the A/C ducting and outlets. The first boats were known to have hot spots in the salon when air flow from A/C outlets couldn't reach. The fix was to cut up the cabinets to reroute and add some ducting and outlets plus improve return air flow to eliminate some areas of bottled up air.

Do your homework on engines, get either Cummins or Cats surveyed.......Cummins isn't known for serious problems like the 3196's, but both the QSM and 6CTA are known for having cooling systems that are just barely adequate. That means the us suspecting buyer can end up spending some pretty decent maintenance money on cleaning heat exchangers, oil coolers, aftercoolers, replacing water pumps etc. Its just a lot better to spend $800 on a Cummins survey that $5000 on maintenance to make the boat fully sea worthy.

Finally, it doesn't matter what brand of engine you have, you absolutely must figure out what the correct recommended cruise rpms and loading is for that engine. No diesel will survive long term if you run it over loaded.
 
Frank,

I've noticed the stern-heavy attitude of the 460. I agree, it's manageable, but something to be aware of.

I used to run a friends 1998 500DA with birds-eye maple vitricor. The light color helped reduce the cave effect of the Dancer, and the gloss and pattern DID look "yacht-like". That makes the 2002 Windsor Maple (or whatever they call it) satin finished, straight-grained laminate look like an early 90's Carver. Still, that lighter color DOES help.

I think you meant to type 480DB, not DA? (the DA is way, way out of the running) I think the 1998 480DB is too old for both of us, but I appreciate the warning.
 
You are correct.....I meant to describe a/c probelms with the 480 Sedan Bridge...and the worst dead area is in the dining table area......climb up there to eat and you roast.
 
That must have been corrected in later versions. Mine certainly doesn't feel like a wind tunnel in the dinette area, but it is far from dead air. We keep the inside very cool.

I could show pics, but Gary has already commented.
 
I've said it before but if my wife couldn't get the inside to 70 degrees on a 100 degree day, she would make me buy a different boat.

I have heard, however, the older versions had a smaller salon AC system and had heat problems...
 
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You know I don't recall a real problem with bow rise on the 460 we sea trialed. My point of refence was our 400DA with 380hp Horizons. Maybe I was to excited to notice, and the fact that we in the wide open Gulf may have been factors. But I do recall that it got up out of the water quickly to somethinng above 30mph fast. Don't recall which Cummins
engines it had. We would have bought it, but could not agree on price. It's pending at MM naples.
 
OK, I did not comment early on this thread, because I thought there were so many more qualified folks to answer than me. But it keeps going and I can't resist hearing myself type. I own (for only 6 months) a 1998 480DB with the dreaded 3196's. The first year model with most of the problems. I went from the DA's to the DB for one primary reason: I like to travel on the boat and I have to work when I travel. The DA has the cave, which drives me crazy sitting on a computer and not being able to at least look to see if something is worth taking a break. Also, I had to set up and break down the dinette to work and eat. It was also hard to run up and down the entry stairs when I was BBQing and cooking in the microwave, or stove at the same time (timing is everything in great meals).

There are some other pros that have been overlooked when buying an odler model. The lines did not change until around 04/05 so the look of the 98 looks pretty modern. The fact that the engines are a little more used also helps to ensure that material flaws have been addressed and if you have any decent amount of hours, it also indicates that it is pretty well maintained.

I could only afford to enter the 48 range by buying older and more used (1400 hours/ 600 on the rebuild, not to mention the 3700 hours on the genny), but so far, I have been pretty impressed. I have had to replace the impellers and a couple of lines and seals on the CATs. I had to change out the sylinoid and the hoses on the genny. I have only been roasting at the dinette with the black windshield cover on. As soon as I found the white netted one, it has been better. I am installing a flat screen TV on the counter beside the corner cabinet, and with all that extra room, I can't decide whether to install a freezer, refridgerator, or a wine celler. As soon as I decide, I will post the pics.

None of this is probably useful, but I thought I would just throw out a few more reasons, why "I" chose the DB over the DA, but really it is how you are going to use it.

briman
 
Briman,

You're right. It's how you use the boat because as we all know, every boat is a compromise.

I think you're correct about the "cave" feel to the DA and that is why we began looking at the DB's and EB's. (I think it's also why the new models have the large side slanted ports.) Our previous Four Winns was much brighter with the plexiglass "atrium" from the cockpit. One thing that we will consider if we go to the 460DA (when we ever decide) is to make a nice looking camperback. That's an esthetic issue but it does give you another protected salon/dinette. Or just zip out the clear panels on a nice day. I've only seen one camperback with a retractable stamoid roof panel. The rest are fixed and some are good and some are really ugly. But if you have the DB, it doesn't matter because you have abundant bright space. The lighter maple in the DA does help but as Frank points out it could devalue the boat. In fact several brokers said the same thing,...that cherry was preferred about 10:1.

Congratulations on your good choice.

James
 
It’s been my experience that it’s what’s ON those lifts makes a difference. With a large PWC hanging off the back of a Cummins 460DA, we lost fwd sightline for a while. With an empty lift, we were up and going without too much fuss, but not with the effortlessness that I’m used to.
I’m ambivalent about lifts on the used market. I’m pretty attached to a roll-up dinghy w/ a small 4 stroke. It won’t make very good use of the lift, and with the flat bottom of the dinghy, they won’t even play nicely.
I’m a Cummins fan, but I’m still curious about where the Volvo stigma will go in the future.
I’d like to see a thruster too, but more for resale and certain docking situations than for everyday use.
The 460 is already a little shy on cockpit storage, so I’m not wild about losing all of that space under the seat to the CruiseAir.
Sat TV is a must, eventually.
I guess the veneer color doesn’t make much difference. I like the lighter look of the maple in a ‘Dancer. Cherry seems “safer” from a resale standpoint, but I haven’t personally met any of these people who shy away from maple.
I’ve seen some decent looking campers on 460’s, and a few really bad ones. It seems to hinge on two factors: too “square”, straight out and straight down just doesn’t seem to agree w/ the lines of the boat, and the more eisen it has, the less obtrusive it seems to be. Just my opinion.
I’d like to see a flat-panel retro-fit in that spot between the galley and head door. SeaRay has put TV’s in worse places than they did on the 460 & 480, but they didn’t nail it on these boats either.
I was going to make a comment about Norcolds and ventilation, but that might be tempting fate…
480:
You’re right James. The SeaRay literature states that bridge air/heat became std in 2002. My neighbor has an aft cabin without air/heat. It’s miserable up there on a anything above a 68 degree day unless you spend 10 minutes rolling up window panels.
I like the look of the wood floor, but it doesn’t seem to hold up well. After a few years, the finish starts peeling below the fridge and freezer. There was a 2000 at MacRay that had custom teak & holly floors throughout. It looked awesome, but I don’t want to know what it cost.
I don’t see the point of a camper on a 480DB. I don’t think it’s pleasing. I’ve seen some that I could live with, and others that would go straight into the dumpster.
I’ve only seen two boats with the optional chrome package. They were side by side at South Bay Cove. They looked great. The salon windows trimmed out in chrome looks even better than the slider.
More often than not, I run the genny just for the sake of running it. I’d like the option to drop anchor to swim and enjoy the surroundings without the noise and smell of the generator without worrying about losing food. I don’t know – maybe all those windows preclude turning the air off anyway. I'd actually like an inverter on the 400 to keep the ice-maker going while underway. Maybe the 460 is the better candidate for an inverter.
 
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