Cheesehead and Hoosier Legislators...Get out of Illinois!

NCCamper said:
Wavedancer: We disagree on the big picture. The big picture, in my opinion, is keeping our freedoms, and keeping government - state and federal - out of our lives and pockets, and creating opportunity for those who have the drive to take advantage. Union membership, by the most recent records, is 12% private/37% public. Are you suggesting that it is more important (big picture) to "stay this course", for the benefit of union members, but at the cost to the population as a whole?
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My outlook on this whole right to work bill passes it will mean less money for the state, which meens alot of state workers will lose there jobs because of a lack of revenue. If the bills fails the the state will be getting the same if not more money from the union workers (via paychecks ie taxes).

I dont hate anyone for disagreeing with me its what makes us who we are. If we were all the same life would be boring.

And yes I too cant wait to get out on the water. Just waiting for the ice and snow to melt
 
wavedancer37 said:
The right to work bill elimnating the employee from joining the union isint where the money is going to be lossed guys (union dues are miniscule). Its in the bargaining rights. "our pay" Thats the big picture. I know non union members arent up to speed on this whole debate right now so I can understand where the confusion is.
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I have my own union boss to represent me, it is ME. I bargain for my salary, benefits, etc. when I begin to work somewhere. If I don't like it, I go somewere else. Why do you feel that you must have some Union boss to bargain for you?

Why should the workers that are not getting the job done be able to "collectively bargain" for salary with the good workers? Just does not make sense. I think the only ones who should be worried with all this is the Union bosses and the employees that are not getting the job done. If a state employee is doing a good and is not grossly overpaid when compared to the private market, they should be just fine.
 
jason78 said:
I have my own union boss to represent me, it is ME. I bargain for my salary, benefits, etc. when I begin to work somewhere. If I don't like it, I go somewere else. Why do you feel that you must have some Union boss to bargain for you?

Why should the workers that are not getting the job done be able to "collectively bargain" for salary with the good workers? Just does not make sense. I think the only ones who should be worried with all this is the Union bosses and the employees that are not getting the job done. If a state employee is doing a good and is not grossly overpaid when compared to the private market, they should be just fine.
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I have been on both sides of the fence, union and non union. When I was non union and asked my employer for a raise either for performance or cost of living it was very little or nothing. With the union side. we (the union) work to negotiate a pay raise. there is allways power in #'s.

With the way the economy is and jobs going over seas I dont want anyone to lose their jobs and passing the bill would Def cause a lose of numerous jobs (state, and locally) I have been in negotiations with the republicans and they are aware of it and they are ready take the losses. we (the union are not)
 
wavedancer37 said:
My outlook on this whole right to work bill passes it will mean less money for the state, which meens alot of state workers will lose there jobs because of a lack of revenue. If the bills fails the the state will be getting the same if not more money from the union workers (via paychecks ie taxes) melt
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Government workers do not create wealth. The taxes they pay are going back into the same pot that they are getting paid from. If you are comparing yourself to a entrepreneur you are delusional.

A net loss of government employees will equal a net savings of tax dollars.

Remember your salary as a government employee is a result of others creating wealth in order to pay taxes which go into the same pot that you are paid from.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
wavedancer37 said:
I have been on both sides of the fence, union and non union. When I was non union and asked my employer for a raise either for performance or cost of living it was very little or nothing. With the union side. we (the union) work to negotiate a pay raise. there is allways power in #'s.

With the way the economy is and jobs going over seas I dont want anyone to lose their jobs and passing the bill would Def cause a lose of numerous jobs (state, and locally) I have been in negotiations with the republicans and they are aware of it and they are ready take the losses. we (the union are not)
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These job losses you are talking about, are these jobs that are *really* "needed" or are they the jobs of the 3 guys standing around watching the 2 guys dig a ditch on a highway project because they have their time in? (just an example) No one wants to see job losses anywhere but just like many private companies are doing, sometimes change is needed. Is that not better than everyone getting laid off?

You said you have been in negoations with the republicans? Do you mind if I ask if you are a Union Boss yourself?

BTW- Thanks for being polite with your responses here. It definitely allows for better discussion. :thumbsup:
 
Big Island Lifer said:
Government workers do not create wealth. The taxes they pay are going back into the same pot that they are getting paid from. If you are comparing yourself to a entrepreneur you are delusional.

A net loss of government employees will equal a net savings of tax dollars.

Remember your salary as a government employee is a result of others creating wealth in order to pay taxes which go into the same pot that you are paid from.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Im really confused as to your post goes in regards to the entrepreneur part.

Your second sentence says less government employess results a savings

I may be reading into your post to much but what i think you are saying is you can live with governement workers losing their jobs?

Correct me if im wrong, just confused at what you are trying to say
 
jason78 said:
These job losses you are talking about, are these jobs that are *really* "needed" or are they the jobs of the 3 guys standing around watching the 2 guys dig a ditch on a highway project because they have their time in? (just an example) No one wants to see job losses anywhere but just like many private companies are doing, sometimes change is needed. Is that not better than everyone getting laid off?

You said you have been in negoations with the republicans? Do you mind if I ask if you are a Union Boss yourself?

BTW- Thanks for being polite with your responses here. It definitely allows for better discussion. :thumbsup:
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Thanks Jason, I am not (a union boss) lol. just a hard working member. Our union as a group attend many meetings at the state house levels to represent our union. Weather the union be steelworkers, teachers, pipefitter etc.. we are here to support.

im not about bashing peoples opinions and enjoy the discussion we have here. Personal attacks arent welcome and hope we continue it this way.

thanks to all that are voicing their opinions
 
wavedancer37 said:
Care to explain. Im not trying to say they are right or wrong. Just voicing my opinion which is why there is a thread.
Here is the way I do the math. If the right to work bill passes I potentially could make 50k less a year. Do the math on how much the state is going to make off of me making that much less.
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Here's some real world math for you.

You can afford a 37 footer and you think you’re the little guy? You state that you stand to lose 50K a year. Dude that's more than many make supporting a family and own a sport boat on this site.

Your wage is as high as the CEO's you condemn. A little hypocritical don't you think?
 
WD37, as I understand it one of the two key bills causing the IN Dems to run and hide from their elected responsibilities would no longer require workers to join a union as a condition of employment. The other would limit teachers' rights to negotiate contracts. You haven't said what you do for a living (or I missed it) but I'm curious as to how either of those measures would cost you 50K.
 
OldSkool said:
Here's some real world math for you.

You can afford a 37 footer and you think you’re the little guy? You state that you stand to lose 50K a year. Dude that's more than many make supporting a family and own a sport boat on this site.

Your wage is as high as the CEO's you condemn. A little hypocritical don't you think?
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I wish I had 1/64th of the wealth our ceo has. He's the fifth richest guy in the world
 
wavedancer37 said:
I may be reading into your post to much but what i think you are saying is you can live with governement workers losing their jobs?
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Yep... :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Fire at least 1/3 of them. HOWEVER... The police, fire, and rescue services need to be funded to their proper levels, so we figure out how many of those folks we need to provide the services, fund them fully, and then get out the hacksaw for everything else.

If you need help picking them out, I'll volunteer to do it...
 
Yes I work for the mittal family. Evidently he slipped in his wealth rankings lately.
Guys.i have to work now so I will get back to the topic of the original poster after work this eve.lets keep this on topic

Till then.happy boating
 
Wave,

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad for every dollar you make but it is a bit disingenuous to compare every working stiff's salary to the highest paid individual in the world. Every employee needs to stand on his/her merits. Not on a union that protects the deadbeats and lumps them in with quality employees every contract renewal.

If he is worth what he makes then good for him. I understand Bill Gates makes a few bucks but I think his contribution to the world of computing warrants it. If you want to dock his pay then don't buy his product.

If you are not happy with your current employment you can strike it out on your own and reap the rewards of business ownership. Been there, done that, have the IRS bills to prove it.:smt009:smt009
 
There seem to be two different defensive threads going on here...1) an argument about the value (or lack thereof) of unions in the private sector where management has the right and the responsibility to deal or not and 2) a debate about workers in the public sector where management (the taxpayer) has nearly zero say in the equation...since most of the people doing the negotiating are government employees and not elected officials (although I get the idea that elected officials ultimately sign off on it). The point is that under the first option, the shareholder has a direct response in value, but in the second, there is no direct response and the result is the underfunded and overpaid mess we have now across the country. The concept of unionizing government employees is loosely analogous to letting unions bargain both sides of the employee and employer question without ultimate accountability.

I would appreciate it going forward if the fed up taxpayers and over burdened citizenry got the credit for this revolt instead of evil CEO's being the allegedly the "boogie-men".
 
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My original post was polking at my neighboring State's legislatures. Now I will address the issue they are fleeing from. Wisconsin is about teachers and government worker unions. I question why either needs one. If you have a Masters Degree and a guaranteed job (i.e. tenure) why do you need a union? Government workers have Civil Service to protect their jobs so their union serves little purpose other than to increase the cost of government which, we as taxpayers, have to pay for. Second, these unions protect the underperformers sometime at the expense of the really exceptional teachers or government workers. If they policed their own and eliminated the underperfomers and rewarded the exceptional, then I would have no problem with their existence. Instead, unions reward senority over performance, so if a school district lays off teachers, exceptional teachers with low seniority will be the first to go. Experience is a virtue up to a point but should not be the sole criterion.

As a side note, I happened to be at an Applebees in Allentown, PA discussing the WI situation with a collegue while we were eating at the bar. It happened that the head of local teachers union sitting close by heard our conversation and jumped in. After telling us that unions are what made this country great I posed the same issue about policing there own and it caught him off guard. After reflecting upon my point he actually somewhat agreed with me. Anecdotal I admit, but certainly supports my case.

Finally, I did at some time in my life have union credentials. The first was as a Co-op Engineer in school working as a pilot plant operator for a summer. In that job, the union got me higher pay than what I was worth. The second was the musicians local when I was playing in a wedding band. There we earned more than union minimums and the union never got us any work. In fact, on one occasion we had to bring along the trumpet player's girlfriend with her string base to meet the minimum union number of musicians for that particular hotel ballroom. I now rest my case.:smt009
 
Everyone do themselves a favor: Stop comparing private sector unions and public unions. They are not close to the same. If you don't know the difference, then educate yourself.
 
Boatingnut said:
Everyone do themselves a favor: Stop comparing private sector unions and public unions. They are not close to the same. If you don't know the difference, then educate yourself.
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True. We need to keep them straight.

One sucks the life out of the public sector. The other sucks the life out of private industry.

The employees will have great pay, until the company moves to China. :thumbsup:
 
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