Carbon monoxide fume detectors

The Bill Collector said:
I pass the USCG inspection every year and have the sticker starboard side windshield.

Get a Vessel Safety Check. A VSC is a free bow-to-stern safety examination.
http://www.uscgboating.org/recreational-boaters/carbon-monoxide-protect.php
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I am not trying to change your mind, you are free to do as you choose but this needs to be said for the record in this thread for others that may not understand the risks.

Verification of marine grade Alarms are not a part of the free CGA inspection. I believe they just ask us if we have them. They also do not verify if they are still within the manufacturer recommended replacement date. That they are marine grade, within date, and in good working order is the responsibility of the Captain.

None of that matters as far as the risk of inconvenience of a citation. It will matter if the unthinkable ever happens. If an accident or fatality occurs the, depending on the circumstances, NSTB, CG, marine surveyors, and private detectives will be checking then. The Captain will then be held to account for the decisions made when a marine grade CO Alarm just did not seem that important.

A liability I am not willing to assume to save a few bucks on a marine grade CO Alarm.

MM
 
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MonacoMike said:
I am not trying to change your mind, you are free to do as you choose but this needs to be said for the record in this thread for others that may not understand the risks.

Verification of CG approval of CO Alarms are not a part of the free CGA inspection. I believe they just ask us if we have them. They also do not verify if they are still within the manufacturer recommended replacement date. That they are CG approved, within date, and in good working order is the responsibility of the Captain.

None of that matters as far as the risk of inconvenience of a citation. It will matter if the unthinkable ever happens. If an accident or fatality occurs the, depending on the circumstances, NSTB, CG, marine surveyors, and private detectives will be checking then. The Captain will then be held to account for the decisions made when a CG approved CO Alarm just did not seem that important.

A liability I am not willing to assume to save a few bucks on a CG approved CO Alarm.

MM
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2 Power sources is the hitch in the gitty-up...

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/MSC/PRG/PRG.E2-09.2014.06.11.Fire_Detection_Systems.pdf

Power Supply  A fire detection system must have two sources of power. The normal source must be the main power source with an automatic switching capability to the emergency power source. If the second source is a battery, the battery charger must be powered from the final emergency power source per 46 CFR 112.15.1(p), 112.15-5(a), 113.10-9.  The cable capacity of branch circuits used to power fire detection and/or alarm systems must not be less than 125% of the maximum branch circuit load (46 CFR 113.10-9(c)).
 
The Bill Collector said:
2 Power sources is the hitch in the gitty-up...

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/MSC/PRG/PRG.E2-09.2014.06.11.Fire_Detection_Systems.pdf

Power Supply  A fire detection system must have two sources of power. The normal source must be the main power source with an automatic switching capability to the emergency power source. If the second source is a battery, the battery charger must be powered from the final emergency power source per 46 CFR 112.15.1(p), 112.15-5(a), 113.10-9.  The cable capacity of branch circuits used to power fire detection and/or alarm systems must not be less than 125% of the maximum branch circuit load (46 CFR 113.10-9(c)).
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand what "fire detection systems" have to do with CO alarms? My point is if your vessel has one or more, as even a diesel 450 DA would likely have, it is the best practice to replace it or them with a marine grade or you will pick up liability in the event of a issue. Simple as that.

MM
 
I have 4 or 5 CO detectors and 1 of them is cellular based. At least one is USCG approved. Thank you for your concern.
 
Mike
MonacoMike said:
I am not trying to change your mind, you are free to do as you choose but this needs to be said for the record in this thread for others that may not understand the risks.

Verification of CG approval of CO Alarms are not a part of the free CGA inspection. I believe they just ask us if we have them. They also do not verify if they are still within the manufacturer recommended replacement date. That they are CG approved, within date, and in good working order is the responsibility of the Captain.

None of that matters as far as the risk of inconvenience of a citation. It will matter if the unthinkable ever happens. If an accident or fatality occurs the, depending on the circumstances, NSTB, CG, marine surveyors, and private detectives will be checking then. The Captain will then be held to account for the decisions made when a CG approved CO Alarm just did not seem that important.

A liability I am not willing to assume to save a few bucks on a CG approved CO Alarm.

MM
Click to expand...

Mike - where do you find verbiage about "USCG Approved"? Even ones that are originally on boats aren't listed as 'USCG Approved"? The only piece that I've ever been able to find is that apparently home units are more sensitive than OEM units which may cause false alarms.
 
carterchapman said:
My hardwired Fireboy/Xintax CMD-4's timed out this year and I replaced them with CMD-5s (4's no longer available) - 8 year life...
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I replaced my three OEM Fireboy CO detectors last year. My boat is in heated storage for six months each year and I unplug each detector so they don’t drain my batteries. Wondering if that will double the life expectancy?
 
douglee25 said:
Mike - where do you find verbiage about "USCG Approved"? Even ones that are originally on boats aren't listed as 'USCG Approved"? The only piece that I've ever been able to find is that apparently home units are more sensitive than OEM units which may cause false alarms.
Click to expand...

I went off track in post #20, and after, I meant marine grade, not CG approved. I said marine grade originally then switched for some reason. Sorry for the confusion. I have updated the posts to marine grade instead of CG approved which is for other things like navigation lighting and fire extinguishers.

MM
 
So, what is a "marine grade" Co alarm???

It has the following, particularly the UL Rating:
  • NMMA Listed Component.
  • Meets ABYC A-24 Standard - CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTION SYSTEMS.
  • Listed to UL 2034 Carbon Monoxide Alarms – Marine Use.
  • Meets ISO: 12133 Small craft — Carbon Monoxide (CO) detection systems.
Other features of a "marine grade" unit would be:
  • Works in extreme temperatures. Only marine CO alarm listed to operational temperatures of -40˚ F to 158˚ F. Alarm has consistently held up in the excessive cold and heat due to high quality sensor.
  • No False Alarms due to new boat smell, outgassing or non-hazardous levels of hydrocarbon gases encountered while boating.
MM
 
Todd M Caldwell said:
Do you have to have a "Marine" Carbon monoxide fume detector? Thanks, Todd
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MonacoMike said:
Yes, one marine grade hardwired unit in each sleeping area. We also have a battery powered household grade with digital readout in each sleeping area and in the cockpit area.

MM
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Maybe things have changed since the last CO discussion but.....other than Minnesota laws, I'm under the impression there are no laws at all requiring CO detectors on recreational boats.

They are a good thing to have though, it's possible any boat could accumulate CO, even from other boats, so diesels are not immune either.
 
Woody said:
Maybe things have changed since the last CO discussion but.....other than Minnesota laws, I'm under the impression there are no laws at all requiring CO detectors on recreational boats.

They are a good thing to have though, it's possible any boat could accumulate CO, even from other boats, so diesels are not immune either.
Click to expand...

I too know of no law or regulation other than Minnesota. My points here are to promote safety and redundancy in vessels that that should have them. If a vessel came with marine grade CO alarms, it is the captains responsibility to maintain that level of safety or get the liability when it goes wrong. It blows my mind that one owns and is responsible for a 40+ foot vessel worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and only has a $30 household CO alarm instead of the $100 marine grade versions. If defending one in court the plaintiff will cite marine industry reccomendations, the same ones manufacturers use to shield themselves form liability.

From Southern Boating:

The American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) Standard A-24 recommends the installation of carbon monoxide (CO) detectors for all boats utilizing inboard gasoline-powered engines or generators and featuring an enclosed accommodation compartment—defined as a contiguous space containing sleeping accommodations, galley area with sink and a head compartment. ABYC exempts diesel engines from this requirement and while it’s true they produce less CO than gasoline engines, my personal recommendation is that detectors be installed aboard both gasoline and diesel-powered vessels.

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 302 calls for vessels 26 feet or more in length with accommodation spaces intended for sleeping to be equipped with a single-station smoke alarm listed to UL 217 (Standard for Single and Multiple Station Smoke Alarms) and suitable for use in recreational vehicles. ABYC requires that CO detectors be tested to UL 2034 standards.

MM
 
Mike, interesting about the smoke alarms. Am I to assume my boat has one? I do have CO alarms in each sleeping space, but have missed the smoke alarm. I've only had the boat for 2 months, so...could have missed it. And I 100% agree with your effort here to educate. Thank you. It's like a Honda on the swim platform, these same issues come back around after a while. Keep up the good work. Mike
 
spikedaddy99 said:
Mike, interesting about the smoke alarms. Am I to assume my boat has one? I do have CO alarms in each sleeping space, but have missed the smoke alarm. I've only had the boat for 2 months, so...could have missed it. And I 100% agree with your effort here to educate. Thank you. It's like a Honda on the swim platform, these same issues come back around after a while. Keep up the good work. Mike
Click to expand...

There is no law or regulation concerning smoke detection or alarms, and few manufacturers install them. From my research it appears that when the regulations were crafted the technology for both CO and smoke alarms was not at a level that could function in the marine environment, as false alarms were so common as to create the "boy that cried wolf" scenario. It determined then it was safer not to require either and that is where we are today even though technology exists that does not have the issues that prompted the decision. There appears to be a few industry voices promoting the requirement for both.

MM
 
Many years ago I started a thread called 'How often do you go in the ER', at the time FourSuns was a regular at CSR and he of course thought I meant emergency room. If you were around then you'll get it.

All joking aside, the response to my question wasn't good. Far to many didn't go in the bilge at all. Responses along the lines of never, a couple times, or my marina takes care of things, were common.

Memorial day weekend I was coming back from Marquette, MI and I hear a boat call for help. They were taking on water and hand bailing. My friend and I closed the seacock and unhooked the air conditioning pump hose and used it to start water pumping. The story that followed was this....just got the boat used 2 weeks before, an alarm went off causing them to look in bilge, that's when they see all the water, some of it coming from a transom shower that emptied the water tank into the bilge, the rest we figure accumulated from heavy rain 2 nights before and inoperable bilge pumps.

Once we emptied the water out and verified they weren't taking on any we went to start up the engines. Immediately we get an alarm. We check drive oil and it's way low, fill it and still get an alarm. We check engine oil, one engine has none showing on the stick, instruments show low oil pressure, we fill the engine with oil and alarm stops.

Two days before these folks made the run through this area, it was very rough, forced them off plane, props were coming out of the water. I to wanted to go that day but the forecast looked to rough to me(I have about 15' more boat), I don't know if these people spent any time looking at it. If all this would have happened that evening the outcome could have been far worse. What's this have to do with CO safety?

IMHO, we all should have CO detectors but....not rely on them as our only protection. The majority of boat CO victims are done in by their own boats, by failures or defective equipment, in some cases they do have CO detectors.

Every time I make a trip I'm in the bilge inspecting after, sometimes during. You don't have to be a certified tech to do a visual inspection, to find a broken hose clamp, or to tighten one. Get in there and listen you might even hear an exhaust leak.

We all need to know/do at least the basics required with our boats systems. Why wait for an alarm to tell you that your oil is low or you have a exhaust leak in your bilge.

I wonder about the young girl in MN that died, Sophia. They say a critter chewed a hole in the exhaust, muskrat I think. I don't know if they had detectors or not but I wonder if a simple thing like routine inspection in the ER would have prevented it.

Even in the occasional boat explosion, what I've found in common the majority of times is, older boat, older tanks, older hoses, carburetors, modifications, more prone to being leak, fume, and ignition sources. I'd guess most those explosions could be prevented by bilge inspections.

Trying to make a point, we shall see how well I do......
 
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+1 Before leaving the dock too... Until my last coolant change I had red coolant in the port engine and green in the starboard just so I would know where it was coming from if I spotted some in the bilge.

"Every time I make a trip I'm in the bilge inspecting after, sometimes during. You don't have to be a certified tech to do a visual inspection, to find a broken hose clamp, or to tighten one. Get in there and listen you might even hear an exhaust leak. "
 
Woody said:
Many years ago I started a thread called 'How often do you go in the ER', at the time FourSuns was a regular at CSR and he of course thought I meant emergency room. If you were around then you'll get it.

All joking aside, the response to my question wasn't good. Far to many didn't go in the bilge at all. Responses along the lines of never, a couple times, or my marina takes care of things, were common.

Memorial day weekend I was coming back from Marquette, MI and I hear a boat call for help. They were taking on water and hand bailing. My friend and I closed the seacock and unhooked the air conditioning pump hose and used it to start water pumping. The story that followed was this....just got the boat used 2 weeks before, an alarm went off causing them to look in bilge, that's when they see all the water, some of it coming from a transom shower that emptied the water tank into the bilge, the rest we figure accumulated from heavy rain 2 nights before and inoperable bilge pumps.

Once we emptied the water out and verified they weren't taking on any we went to start up the engines. Immediately we get an alarm. We check drive oil and it's way low, fill it and still get an alarm. We check engine oil, one engine has none showing on the stick, instruments show low oil pressure, we fill the engine with oil and alarm stops.

Two days before these folks made the run through this area, it was very rough, forced them off plane, props were coming out of the water. I to wanted to go that day but the forecast looked to rough to me(I have about 15' more boat), I don't know if these people spent any time looking at it. If all this would have happened that evening the outcome could have been far worse. What's this have to do with CO safety?

IMHO, we all should have CO detectors but....not rely on them as our only protection. The majority of boat CO victims are done in by their own boats, by failures or defective equipment, in some cases they do have CO detectors.

Every time I make a trip I'm in the bilge inspecting after, sometimes during. You don't have to be a certified tech to do a visual inspection, to find a broken hose clamp, or to tighten one. Get in there and listen you might even hear an exhaust leak.

We all need to know/do at least the basics required with out boats systems. Why wait for an alarm to tell you that your oil is low or you have a exhaust leak in your bilge.

I wonder about the young girl in MN that died, Sophia. They say a critter chewed a hole in the exhaust, muskrat I think. I don't know if they had detectors or not but I wonder if a simple thing like routine inspection in the ER would have prevented it.

Even in the occasional boat explosion, what I've found in common the majority of times is, older boat, older tanks, older hoses, carburetors, modifications, more prone to being leak, fume, and ignition sources. I'd guess most those explosions could be prevented by bilge inspections.

Trying to make a point, we shall see how well I do......
Click to expand...

Excellent post Woody.
 
Woody said:
Many years ago I started a thread called 'How often do you go in the ER', at the time FourSuns was a regular at CSR and he of course thought I meant emergency room. If you were around then you'll get it.

All joking aside, the response to my question wasn't good. Far to many didn't go in the bilge at all. Responses along the lines of never, a couple times, or my marina takes care of things, were common.

Memorial day weekend I was coming back from Marquette, MI and I hear a boat call for help. They were taking on water and hand bailing. My friend and I closed the seacock and unhooked the air conditioning pump hose and used it to start water pumping. The story that followed was this....just got the boat used 2 weeks before, an alarm went off causing them to look in bilge, that's when they see all the water, some of it coming from a transom shower that emptied the water tank into the bilge, the rest we figure accumulated from heavy rain 2 nights before and inoperable bilge pumps.

Once we emptied the water out and verified they weren't taking on any we went to start up the engines. Immediately we get an alarm. We check drive oil and it's way low, fill it and still get an alarm. We check engine oil, one engine has none showing on the stick, instruments show low oil pressure, we fill the engine with oil and alarm stops.

Two days before these folks made the run through this area, it was very rough, forced them off plane, props were coming out of the water. I to wanted to go that day but the forecast looked to rough to me(I have about 15' more boat), I don't know if these people spent any time looking at it. If all this would have happened that evening the outcome could have been far worse. What's this have to do with CO safety?

IMHO, we all should have CO detectors but....not rely on them as our only protection. The majority of boat CO victims are done in by their own boats, by failures or defective equipment, in some cases they do have CO detectors.

Every time I make a trip I'm in the bilge inspecting after, sometimes during. You don't have to be a certified tech to do a visual inspection, to find a broken hose clamp, or to tighten one. Get in there and listen you might even hear an exhaust leak.

We all need to know/do at least the basics required with out boats systems. Why wait for an alarm to tell you that your oil is low or you have a exhaust leak in your bilge.

I wonder about the young girl in MN that died, Sophia. They say a critter chewed a hole in the exhaust, muskrat I think. I don't know if they had detectors or not but I wonder if a simple thing like routine inspection in the ER would have prevented it.

Even in the occasional boat explosion, what I've found in common the majority of times is, older boat, older tanks, older hoses, carburetors, modifications, more prone to being leak, fume, and ignition sources. I'd guess most those explosions could be prevented by bilge inspections.

Trying to make a point, we shall see how well I do......
Click to expand...

One of the tings I am excited about on the new boat is the ease of ER access. My 270 required the table be removed, the rear seat, and the carpet pulled up just to reach the ER deck plates. As you may assume, I did not get down there as often as I wished I would. It was a frustrating 5 minutes to disassemble the rear cockpit as there was no place secure to put the table, seat, and deck plates.

I love that boat and it lives way bigger than it sounds, we had everything our friends with 340-360 DA's had and sometimes more. We did not have that much extra storage in the new boat once the 270 was emptied, although the difference is the new boat has drawers and closets rather than duffels on the V-berth. LOL

MM
 
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