Both engine will not start Cummins 480ce

1000islander

1000islander

Member
Jul 9, 2007
115
1000 Islands
Boat Info
420 Sundancer
Engines
Cummins
My dealer called me today after launching my boat and said the boat will not start. Neither engine? It cranks but will not start. The boat was stored inside heated for the winter. I believe they disconnect the batteries over the winter. Does anyone have an idea what may be the issue. I am sure it is something simple seeing both motors fail to run.
 
I suspect this is a fuel related issue, but with ce engines, that could very well mean an electronic problem preventing fuel flow to the cylinders. That electronic issue could even be the neutral safety switches which shut off fuel flow. I am afraid that this is one where you are going to have to eliminate possible causes one at a time by checking/verifying connections and function to rule out things.

One word of advice........open ended question like this usually generates a lot of gloom and doom comments about all the bad stuff this could possibly be. Stat with the easy stuff first, like did the yard guy who was going to move your boat, lean against the shifters when he uncovered the instrument panel...leaving the shifter in gear will open the neutral safety switches and prevent starting. Look for tripped breakers in not so obvious places, etc. One clue you already mentioned is that there is very little that can happen to both engines at the same time. But weird stuff can happen...look around for the not so obvious like rat or muskrat droppings in the bilge then look for chewed wiring.

Good luck with it..........
 
My bet? Weak batteries. Those motors need the starters to kick out some torque to start. Have the batters been replaced recently? Are they fully charged? Voltage readings? I know the dealer told you they cranked... but was it a CRANK CRANK CRANK... or craNk...craNk...c r a n n k k...?

Otherwise like Frank I would look at a fuel issue. Replace the fuel filters.
 
gerryb said:
My bet? Weak batteries. Those motors need the starters to kick out some torque to start. Have the batters been replaced recently? Are they fully charged? Voltage readings? I know the dealer told you they cranked... but was it a CRANK CRANK CRANK... or craNk...craNk...c r a n n k k...?

Otherwise like Frank I would look at a fuel issue. Replace the fuel filters.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. The batteries are AGM with 1150 CCA only 2.5 years old. I am going to make sure they charged them all fully. I am hoping someone forgot to connect something or a breaker is tripped somewhere. Again, ran to the hoist in the fall, went to warm storage, the batteries were disconnected and then batteries reconnected in the spring and splashed today...won't run. Something simple I am hoping. Going to the boat tomorrow and will check the obvious...just seem very strange both motors are impacted.
 
I'll bet it's something simple but I doubt it's the shifter issue Frank described. Both my current boat and my past boats would not even crank if the shifters weren't seated in neutral. You indicate yours is cranking but not firing up.
 
I am also certain sounds like something simple but thought I would give you a run down on what I would check. I have 6BTA's so no electronics to run the engine.

As mentioned, batteries
Fuel valve open
Fuel in sight glass on racer
Fuel primer pump should be stiff when pressed indicating fuel at injectors
Fuel solenoid opening when trying to start, should be able to see the valve arm move and hear the click of the valve open.

After those basic checks it will run down to the electronics, sensors, Smartcrap trying to run the engine. Diesels are great as they only need fuel and air to make them run, but then all this electronic sensor and feedback loops got in the way and made things difficult. Does the Smartcrap power on and give any indication of errors?
 
Update

Spoke to service manager..the wait to start lights do not come on either engine. Motors crank very strong.
 
1000islander said:
Update

Spoke to service manager..the wait to start lights do not come on either engine. Motors crank very strong.
Click to expand...

I don't have "wait to start lights" on my mechanical 450C, so I just watch the volt meters. It's been few years since I was aboard of 480CE equipped vessel, but I assume that the light related to grid heaters, which theoretically have nothing to do with the engines not firing up.

What does the Sea Ray Monitor say when you hit the switch to ON position (not start, just ON)? Do you hear the "beeeeeeeeep"?
 
I'm also going with something simple, either a simple switch somewhere or 99% sure it's a fuel issue. To rule out the batteries do you have a parallel switch to have all the batteries crank the engine? if batteries are close to one another you can make a jumper wire. Could also be air locked which is really a fuel issue. It's gotta be something simple when both engines are doing the same thing.
 
Try bypassing the automatic fire protection switch (it should be located on your dash with a toggle switch). In very cold weather, at times, it will close the fuel shut off valves. Bypassing the switch allows the valves to open if they receive the proper signal otherwise. remember to re-arm the system. Hope that helps.
 
Seeing that the Start Engine Lights aren't working more suspicious of electrical problem rather than fuel quality, especially if you can get gen set to run. I'm thinking along the same lines as Brian, check ER fire extinguisher protection bottle. Is needle in the green? I believe low pressure in the fire extinguisher will also shut-off fuel flow to engines.

Good luck.
 
Update...
Spent 4 hours looking for the obvious, battery connection, Voltage, fuses and other things. all checkout fine Here is what is happening:

When you press the rocker switch for the engines an alarm (solid beep) goes off, the engine lights do not come on. When you press the bilge blower switch, the same alarm comes on.
The generator does the same thing. Remote start or on the genset....it will not crank or start, just the alarm.

So I am thinking it has to do with the fire suppression system or the Modal located in the dc box in the bilge. It connects or disconnects the genset, blowers and engines in the event of the halon going off....I will be heading back on Friday. I will post my results.

Thanks for all of your help on this.
 
That is exactly it. I just had my suppression system updated...halon no longer used btw. Once the pressure limit is no longer satisfied, nothing associated with the engine or auxiliaries will engage or activate and the alarm will sound exactly as you describe.

One can bypass this situation but highly not recommended for obvious reasons.


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So, #3 in the diagram below?



ScreenHunter_07 Apr. 30 19.28.jpg
 
I will also add that extreme cold affects all vaporized liquid extinguishers....during these extremely cold months...such as the winter we just had and still climbing out....the pressure gauge will read lower because the pressure is in fact lower.....when warmer days come around and depending on how low your system is, the pressure will rise and the limit switch may actually become satisfied once again....allowing you to start and run normally.

Something to think about...(get a little heat in the ER and see if it works)....otherwise replacement costs are on the high side.


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The gauge on the tank reads in the green. Temp here is in the 40's, I am going to try to bypass the switch on Friday. So there is a toggle switch under the dash? How else would I bypass it?
 
Last edited:
It may very well still indicate a 'charged' state by virtue of it being in the green but the pressure could still be insufficient to satisfy the limit and I don't know what that limit is. Halon is particularly sensitive to cold....and while 40 isn't extreme...it is cold and certainly has been 'cold soaking' for months now.


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Sea ray does provide for overriding and yes, the toggle under the dash. It's meant to override the safety interlock after the system has discharged...and any fire is out and it's safe to restart.




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I'm not directly familiar with the dash of an '05 420DA, but I would expect the Fire Extinguisher status light and bypass switch to be on the far right side of your dash panel, not under the dash. It should have a round plate with an indicator light and toggle switch. Do NOT touch the manual pull station under the dash. I do not think the Automatic Fire Extinguisher status panel and bypass switch is tied to the generator start switch but i've never checked that. If your generator is having a start issue it's either a seperate issue or the bypass switch is not going to solve your engine starting problem.
 
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