Are all political views welcome in this forum?

[mddickens]

True.



In January 2009, when Obama took office, the economy was already in a shambles. The Republicans are not blameless in this.



Agree. Don't forget that Bush *signed* the TARP bank bailout legislation

The Republicans have a real opportunity to make gains in this election; but I am really concerned that this party is campaigning on the same popcorn and cotton candy fiscal policies that were going nowhere in the early 2000's.

The *expiration* of the Bush tax cuts was needed for fiscal sanity because of the pending Medicare/Social Security bubble. So instead of addressing that root cause problems, the Republicans started a war and did Medicare Part D.

The answer, unfortunately, is not a simple 1/4 step process. With everyone promising popcorn and cotton candy, it is politically impossible for a real politician to recommend chemotherapy.

I'm definitely NOT a fan of politics as usual on the Republican or Democrat side. I believe that politics is best handled on the local level where local mores and culture govern and where taxing decisions are made closer to the tax payer. Central command and control government has never and will never work. Obama is just re-proving that truth now.

And when it comes to war, I think this is where Bush (and now Obama) have made the most egregious mistakes, wasted so much money and so many precious lives...waste, waste, waste.

 

[mddickens]

I got this link this morning and I personally think it precisely describes what has happened to the Democrat party:

http://rightbias.com/news/kuhner69.aspx

 

[Pack66Dad]

Well, I guess I got my answer.

One thing you all might consider is that democrat or republican we all can see that this nation is tearing itself in half. We are no longer Americans, we are Elitist Liberals or Neanderthal Conservatives and we hate each others guts. Our leaders won't sit down and negotiate anything unless its "our way" (note the record number of filibusters in the last two years) so nothing get done and we all suffer.

The polls (and most recent elections) show that our political preference is almost exactly a 50/50 split. Although we disagree on many issues it was never a blood sport, all or nothing disagreement in the past. So, my question to you is: How did this fundamental change happen and who is responsible for it? Americans have never agreed on a lot of these issues but we never called each other Nazis or Socialists and we always respected our president, no matter what his party affiliation was.

Think about where this hate and ugliness comes from, and who really stands to benefit from it (hint: citizens united decision). I personally don't want to hate or be hated by my fellow citizens just for my political views, do you?

It is my firm conviction that if we reject the "hate speech" in our personal lives and chastise our elected officials when they engage in it we can clean up this mess and go back to being Americans.

Paramount to returning control of our government to "we the people" is to ban all private money from elections and lobbying. From the town council to the oval office, NO PRIVATE MONEY. Not from unions or businesses or any private party. People of good faith should be able to contribute up to maybe $1,000.00 to a general fund that would distribute funds to candidates of both parties under very strict guidelines.

So, in conclusion: I do not agree with most of what you all have posted here but I do not hate you. Isn't it time we all started being able to disagree in an agreeable manner, like civilized, educated American citizens?

 

[comsnark]

So what would you do if you were in charge?

See below!

What's wrong with laying off firemen, police, and teachers? Our population here where I live has doubled in 10 years and the police force is up 5X. Ridiculous...

Agree. Sometimes. . actually most times. . .less is more.

Spending - you can cut all descretionary government spending and it still wouldn't matter. The entitlement programs are making us go broke.

How to fix - honest debate on taxes and spending. Not one politician on both sides of the aisle is actually providing any honest talk

I agree with these statements as well.

- - - - -


My three cents on "a path".

1) Recognize that there is no single magic bullet.

2) Let the Bush tax cuts expire. Never again pass "yo-yo" tax legislation with temporary tax cuts that last for more than one year.

3) Increase taxes on the poor such that 75%+ of households pay at least SOMETHING. Doesn't have to be alot. . but cannot be zero. EVERYONE should have a stake in funding the government.

4) Raise the retirement age. I think we have shown we can't have 30% of the population retired for 20+ years.

5) Cut medicare payments 10% across the board, and for goodness sake change the Medicare Part D so that the Government can negotiate on drug costs!

6) Cut defense spending 10% across the board. Seriously. We currently spend about as much as the rest of the world *combined* on defense spending. We really don't need cold war level defense spending right now.

7) Eliminate ALL tax credits and deductions except the Mortgage/ state, and local tax deductions. (these are too far baked into general house hold economics to remove without creating havoc). No more home energy credits, farm credits, car credits, kid credits or other voter pandering. You can still have progressive tax rates on a one page income tax form. Do it.

8) Ensure that the house, senate, and executive branch are NEVER controlled by the same party. Look what happened under Clinton. Republicans tried all kinds of stupid crap and Clinton veto'd it. Here's hoping that happens next year!

 

[MaddyDean]

Paramount to returning control of our government to "we the people" is to ban all private money from elections and lobbying. From the town council to the oval office, NO PRIVATE MONEY. Not from unions or businesses or any private party. People of good faith should be able to contribute up to maybe $1,000.00 to a general fund that would distribute funds to candidates of both parties under very strict guidelines.

So, in conclusion: I do not agree with most of what you all have posted here but I do not hate you.

there are more than two parties and when we say under very strict guidelines, that means, again, government to the rescue and when they adjust those guidelines to benefit their incumbents, what do we do?

BTW, there's no hate

My recommendation is abolish all Income tax--figure out out to fix, correct or reform SS, the Obama-care has got to go (Allow more private company competition across states, and develop a national sales tax (Only those who buy things will pay taxes including Illegal aliens who most are currently not paying into the system.

 

[spikedaddy99]

Term limits for Congress. They should focus on working instead of re-election.

 

[mddickens]

Well, I guess I got my answer.

One thing you all might consider is that democrat or republican we all can see that this nation is tearing itself in half. We are no longer Americans, we are Elitist Liberals or Neanderthal Conservatives and we hate each others guts. Our leaders won't sit down and negotiate anything unless its "our way" (note the record number of filibusters in the last two years) so nothing get done and we all suffer.

The polls (and most recent elections) show that our political preference is almost exactly a 50/50 split. Although we disagree on many issues it was never a blood sport, all or nothing disagreement in the past. So, my question to you is: How did this fundamental change happen and who is responsible for it? Americans have never agreed on a lot of these issues but we never called each other Nazis or Socialists and we always respected our president, no matter what his party affiliation was.

Think about where this hate and ugliness comes from, and who really stands to benefit from it (hint: citizens united decision). I personally don't want to hate or be hated by my fellow citizens just for my political views, do you?

It is my firm conviction that if we reject the "hate speech" in our personal lives and chastise our elected officials when they engage in it we can clean up this mess and go back to being Americans.

Paramount to returning control of our government to "we the people" is to ban all private money from elections and lobbying. From the town council to the oval office, NO PRIVATE MONEY. Not from unions or businesses or any private party. People of good faith should be able to contribute up to maybe $1,000.00 to a general fund that would distribute funds to candidates of both parties under very strict guidelines.

So, in conclusion: I do not agree with most of what you all have posted here but I do not hate you. Isn't it time we all started being able to disagree in an agreeable manner, like civilized, educated American citizens?

As one of the "neanderthals" in this conversation (just where did I leave my club?), I want to say that I agree that polarization is increasing, and that it is a destructive force. For me personally, this was first personified during the Bork hearings and later with Clarence Thomas. There are groups of people that worship at the altar of Saul Alinsky and his techniques of destroying people. When it happens to one group, then that group naturally wants revenge, so the pendulum swings to wider extremes. It becomes a matter of the ends justifying the means and drives more people to the extreme ends of the political continuum.

When Obama was elected, I admit that for a moment I thought it might be not so bad. I actually thought that this multi-racial man might help get us down the road from the racial divide. Where I live near Memphis, we live with this day after day. It's very tiring and never ending. I harbored a momentary thought that if Obama reached out to us conservatives, that perhaps the pendulum's cycle might slow a bit, and that perhaps we might begin the journey back to a more collegial politics reflecting the broad views of the electorate. I thought that it would be a great idea to (as he promised) publish pending legislation on the Internet for some time before signing it as a way of shining sunlight into the putrid deal-making process and exposing waste. I thought it would be a great idea to broadcast congressional deliberations on CSPAN. I thought that a well-reasoned and considered reform of how health insurance is provided in this country would be a real "progressive" move.

Well, we know what we got...no important legislation posted for review on the Internet...a health bill which was never read and shoved down our throats despite howls of protest from 60% of Americans, backroom deals to make Daley proud, only pro-forma efforts at bipartisanship, no televised congressional deliberations, etc.

Before anyone points fingers at the Republicans for obstructionism, the Democrats have to "man up" and acknowledge that they had the votes to do anything they wanted to do...and they couldn't get it done. Why? Because their own members weren't in agreement. When you have a majority in both houses of Congress and a like-minded president, and you still can't get it done, who's at fault for that? Did he really expect conservatives to support him?

Obama has tried (and partially succeeded) to pull a good old "bait and switch". Yes, government will be more open, yes we'll govern in a bi-partisan fashion, etc, etc. Then once the election is in the books, what we get is old-fashioned, far left, Chicago-style power politics conducted in secret. When you promise one thing and do another, you shouldn't be surprised when people get a little pissed and polarized. It's happened on both sides and it IS a very bad way to govern.

Pack66Dad, I don't hate anyone because they are liberal, but I do hate liberalism as an ideology because it just doesn't work, and hurts so many when it's dragged (like Keynesian theories) out of its tattered, dusty box by yet another generation of starry-eyed idealists.

 

[Four Suns]

I think this says it all...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrA9zj94NuU&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Can you believe she has that book in front of her? Amazing...

 

[jason78]

It is just interesting to me how Obama and some other Democrats are running around touting the Republicans as the "Party of NO" instead of talking about all the great things they have accomplished..... Obama, Pelosi and Reid have gotten everything they wanted but they still go around talking as if things somehow would have been different had they been able to get Republican votes for all this spending. Other Democrats seem to be running from Health Care, Stimulus, etc.

The other thing they want you to forget is that their hands were on the wheel too when the economy tanked. It is suprising to me how many people don't realize the Dems had control of Congress 2 years before Obama even came in.

 

[Old Vet]

It's very early in the morning....couldn't sleep....and started browsing some of the forums here I've never looked at before.

Interesting debate. Can an "outsider" play? :smt001

"Then once the election is in the books, what we get is old-fashioned, far left, Chicago-style power politics conducted in secret. When you promise one thing and do another, you shouldn't be surprised when people get a little pissed and polarized. It's happened on both sides and it IS a very bad way to govern."

Does this not happen....election after election....no matter who wins? Doesn't seem to matter much what country we're talking about either.:smt013

Seems as every election nears.....everyone is screaming.... "throw the bast---s out". And what happens? In comes the next set of "bast---s".....that everyone is once again screaming to throw out as the next election cycle approaches. Never ends does it.

Sure wish your "Founding Fathers" could be reincarnated. What incredible men they were.

OK...sorry for dipping my toe into an American political debate. But American politics does affect pretty much everyone else in the world in one way or another.

I'll go back to spectating now. :grin:

 

[BlewByYou88]

2 cents....

Should we nominate the club Sea Ray forum members as the next governing administration?

yes.....yes we should. :grin:


In the end...we have no one to blame for all of this but ourselves. "We the People" let this happen and "We the people" continue to let it happen. We can't depend on a government or political party to fix our problems. I just wonder when we are going to have had enough....:huh:

 

[mddickens]

I'm hoping that we're seeing this begin to happen now. I don't think we're going to have any choice in the matter anyway. When the UK and France begin to start the process of rolling back the Nanny State, you know something is happening.

While controlling the House (and hopefully the Senate) will allow us to shut down new spending programs, we're going to have a hard time shutting down the programs that have passed already. That's going to take a new president with the balls to cut programs. Someone like Chris Christie...

 

[Four Suns]

I don't think most people in the US know what politicians mean when they say they "cut spending." The way the government passes bills now, the forward years' pro-forma budget is also in the bill. So lets say we have a new entitlement called "Children Vaccinations" where there is $20M in the bill for year 1 and $40M in year 2 and $80M in year 3. Since congress only passes budgets on a yearly basis, most only know about year 1 and $20M... Year 2 rolls around and someone stands up and says let's only fund this program with $30M (a 50% increase) and some politicians will stand up and SCREAM: "YOU ARE CUTTING SPENDING BY 50% ON HELPING CHILDREN!!" .... and people believe them. I worked for the government for 14 years and the last years I was there I saw this all the time... new programs would be started and then people would scream about how they are getting "cut" because the increase is is less than what they planned on.

Truth is... if you cap spending at today's rate and increase it only at the rate of inflation and keep the Bush tax cuts, the US budget has a surplus this decade... but most people only hear about the "cuts" from the liberal left that want spending increases of 20-50% per year in entitlement programs and take away from people that are "more fortunate".

Here's a quick video I found just by doing a search on this from a few minutes ago... his salary example is exactly what many unions do... If the unions had a 10% wage increase for the following year in their contract and the company says we can only do 5% because of a slow down in business, they scream they took a 5% pay cut and everyone is getting rich on their backs:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xezWd7VU2Ug&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

 

[MaddyDean]

I don't think most people in the US know what politicians mean when they say they "cut spending." The way the government passes bills now, the forward years' pro-forma budget is also in the bill. So lets say we have a new entitlement called "Children Vaccinations" where there is $20M in the bill for year 1 and $40M in year 2 and $80M in year 3. Since congress only passes budgets on a yearly basis, most only know about year 1 and $20M... Year 2 rolls around and someone stands up and says let's only fund this program with $30M (a 50% increase) and some politicians will stand up and SCREAM: "YOU ARE CUTTING SPENDING BY 50% ON HELPING CHILDREN!!" .... and people believe them. I worked for the government for 14 years and the last years I was there I saw this all the time... new programs would be started and then people would scream about how they are getting "cut" because the increase is not what they planned on.

Truth is... if you cap spending at today's rate and increase it only at the rate of inflation and keep the Bush tax cuts, the US budget has a surplus this decade... but most people only hear about the "cuts" from the liberal left that want spending increases of 20-50% per year in entitlement programs and take away from people that are "more fortunate".

Here's a quick video I found just by doing a search on this from a few minutes ago... his salary example is exactly what many unions do... If the unions had a 10% wage increase for the following year in their contract and the company says we can only do 5%, they scream they took a 5% pay cut:

[youtube]xezWd7VU2Ug[/youtube]

Here, Here...you are 100% correct. That has always driven me crazy.

 

[Four Suns]

I think a lot of this "we need to punish the rich" has nothing to do with wealth redistribution. Does anyone really think by even doubling the taxes on the top earners will mean they will get some sort of check in the mail? Let me be the first to tell you... you won't. The government takes it and pisses it away... no one in the middle class is on the receiving end of that confiscatory action against successful people. I think it's more about people seeing someone succeed and going "Hey! he got more than me and it's not fair! Take it away!" without really caring were the money goes... bastard should go to jail for doing better than me. I know that guy with the $4M Viking behind me at the marina should be punished... bastard has a bigger boat than me. Not fair. Can't wait for him to fail (sarcasm... I want to be like him actually).

I have a small job at my house that I need to get done... I want to brick about a 6' diameter area for a fire pit. I have the foundation in... all the bricks sitting there... and this weekend I called 4 brick masons. I got one to come by Monday and Tuesday he calls and says it's a "two day job" for him and he could start that day as he doesn't have anything to do... He wanted $2600... for just him... for 2 days of work (I think it's one day but whatever). He has to supply nothing other than the skill to lay bricks straight... I told him that was extreme... $1300/day? Holy crap! I told him I would pay him $1200 ($600/day) and he laughed and says he doesn't get out of bed for less than $1300/day. He's got no work.... f@ck him... go vote for Obama. Obama doesn't make $1300/day (FYI)... and I know brick masons typically make $20-30/hour around here. He can go sit home and b!tch about how life is not fair and collect his food stamps... and I'll buy a pre-fab metal fire pit from China and spend the difference on some Michelob Ultra beer (which is now owned by a foreign company).

 

[jason78]

2 cents....

Should we nominate the club Sea Ray forum members as the next governing administration?

yes.....yes we should. :grin:

Does this mean Gary for President 2012?

 

[rcknecht]

I was behind a car that a bumber sticker that said: "I'm too poor to be a Republican" I was thought it was one sided. A better bumper sticker would be:
"I'm too poor to be a Republican and too smart to be a Democrat" I think career politicians and criminals have a lot in common. The fewer we have of both the better off we are... BTW there is room for liberals on this site... I would like to know what a liberal is, seems to me that we have range of ideas. All I know is less is better when it comes to laws and regulations, and more is better when it comes to ice cream...

 

[comsnark]

I agree in principle with what you are saying. . but . .

So lets say we have a new entitlement called "Children Vaccinations" where there is $20M in the bill for year 1 and $40M in year 2 and $80M in year 3. Since congress only passes budgets on a yearly basis, most only know about year 1 and $20M... Year 2 rolls around and someone stands up and says let's only fund this program with $30M (a 50% increase) and some politicians will stand up and SCREAM: "YOU ARE CUTTING SPENDING BY 50% ON HELPING CHILDREN!!"

TRUE. Note that this also applies for defense spending.

Of course, some things DO require multi-year spending. Vaccines and Fighter jets probably fall into this category. For instance. . .you can't have a kid and budget to feed the kid this year, but then decide to NOT feed the child next year.

Truth is... if you cap spending at today's rate and increase it only at the rate of inflation and keep the Bush tax cuts, the US budget has a surplus this decade... but most people only hear about the "cuts" from the liberal left that want spending increases of 20-50% per year in entitlement programs and take away from people that are "more fortunate".

Very misleading. Tut.Tut.

This is only true if the spending you are capping includes Social Security, Medicare, and Defense. With the increasing number of "older" folk. . plus inflation. . .capping spending actually is a benefits decrease.

This is why the REPUBLICAN Bush tax cuts was designed by REPUBLICAN law makers to expire. We can drop taxes now. . but 10 years from now we do need the revenue. . . .sooo .. . .

If the unions had a 10% wage increase for the following year in their contract and the company says we can only do 5% because of a slow down in business, they scream they took a 5% pay cut and everyone is getting rich on their backs:

Misleading. . very bad example. This example is not a budget, it is a CONTRACT. Very, very different from legislation.

How is this different than paying $1000/month on your mortgage this year, but then deciding unilaterally to only pay $900 next year? Your mortgage is a CONTRACT.

If the company can't afford to pay 10% in year two, then why did the company SIGN the contract? If you can't predict what buisness will be like in two years. . .then why are you signing a multi-year labor CONTRACT?

Not that I am defending unions generally, but this is a case of bad business planning is being WRONGLY blamed on unions. Probably why the company isn't profitable. . .the managment is incompetent.

- - -- - - -

Like I said elsewhere, spending is very much a problem. Cuts in entitlements must be part of the solution. There is no magic bullet.

 

[comsnark]

i was behind a car that a bumber sticker that said: "i'm too poor to be a republican" i was thought it was one sided. A better bumper sticker would be:
"i'm too poor to be a republican and too smart to be a democrat" i think career politicians and criminals have a lot in common. The fewer we have of both the better off we are... Btw there is room for liberals on this site... I would like to know what a liberal is, seems to me that we have range of ideas. All i know is less is better when it comes to laws and regulations, and more is better when it comes to ice cream...

+1 very true.

 

[Four Suns]

sorry dude... that analysis includes the increase in population going on Social Security as well as inflation...

A "bill" is a "contract" also... point is, it's not a "cut"... It's a great example.