460 DA Owners Thread

[TheWolfTC]

Duck bill question:
I removed the vacuum pump and chamber last night as I need to replace the pump motor and it was easier than working in the bilge to clean it out and replace duck bills etc. Outside of the YUCK job that it is, and TOTALLY necessary, I found a couple items that left me scratching my head. The first one was why in the world did the previous owner allow non marine toilet paper be used in this system!!! (and a feminine hygiene product jammed inside the chamber)...that withstanding...

In the picture below at the yellow arrow, should there be a duck bill valve here as well as inside this step once the gray threaded pipe is removed? There was only 1 duck bill in this end and it was where the gray threaded pipe and the black pipe came together. There wasn't one at the end of the gray pipe where it connects to the tank fitting. when I took it apart. Considering the gray pipe was only tightened against the white fitting without a gasket, I am surprised it was able to create and maintain vacuum.


I am going to put it back together today and want to be sure I am not making a mistake by adding the 4th duckbill valve. Everything I read states there are 4 in the system...2 at each end.
If the pictures don't post they can be viewed here:
http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/Thewolftc/library/Head System

Once this is done, the fun part of pulling the old waste hose out to the master head and replacing it with new. This job is going to really suck because Sea Ray, in their infinite wisdom, installed holding straps on the waste hose behind the hot water heater. The only way to get to them is by removing the washer/dryer and hopefully having a long enough arm to reach back there. I have tried pulling it through from behind the fridge, but to no avail.

If anyone has first hand knowledge or any tricks on how to do this I am ALL ears! I don't want to remove the washing machine if I don't have to. And of course I am not 100% certain that removing the washing machine will truly make it easier.

TIA
TheWoflTC (Bill)

 

[doozie]

I have the fridge out of the boat, so I looked at how that hose runs, there is a strap behind the area for the washer and H/W, it's also strapped behind the fridge. Looks to me like you need to pull the fridge and either the H/W or washer. Once you pull the fridge you can get a better view to determine which would be easier to pull. Also my pumps have 4 duckbills ea.

 

[TheWolfTC]

I have the fridge out of the boat, so I looked at how that hose runs, there is a strap behind the area for the washer and H/W, it's also strapped behind the fridge. Looks to me like you need to pull the fridge and either the H/W or washer. Once you pull the fridge you can get a better view to determine which would be easier to pull. Also my pumps have 4 duckbills ea.

Having the fridge out to install a new one is how the whole process got started...LOL

There are 2 straps behind the washer/dryer and hot water heater...and get this, a 3rd one on the fire wall just to the left of the hot water heater. NO way to get to it with any tools at all. IDIOTS!!!! I will go through the PIA task of removing the sofa so that I can remove the washer/dryer and at least release the 2 clamps I can get to...then I will just muscle the last one until the screw breaks. As for the W/D...this will be a pain to. Trying to reach the clamp for the water discharge will prove to be a real joy. There isn't enough hose to allow you to pull it all the way out and get back in to release it. They must have installed this before the top half of the boat was in place. And that's all AFTER you remove the sofa!

After spending so much time reviewing this process, I can't understand how anyone would get the hot water heater out to replace it on this model year boat., It won't come out through the front of the cabinet that's for sure. Puzzling, and a lot of work if it ever goes bad.

I'm going to Costa Rica for a week...give me time to think on it for a while...
I did get the new tv installed today though. So that's a positive thing.


Have a great weekend!

 

[doozie]

I took the back off the sofa to get at the water tank fittings,
I don't think moving the whole sofa will be that bad. The washer would
be a pain. Looking at your pictures I've thought of the tv relocation, when
you have a chance I'd like more info on that. Bob

 

[TheWolfTC]

I took the back off the sofa to get at the water tank fittings,
I don't think moving the whole sofa will be that bad. The washer would
be a pain. Looking at your pictures I've thought of the tv relocation, when
you have a chance I'd like more info on that. Bob

Hi Bob,
Not that bad...just an added step that sucks...oh well, I have an entire winter to get it done.

I have detailed information on the TV install if you would like to private message me. It was easier than I had thought and it came out pretty clean. here are a few pics of the wiring. Outside of that I would be happy to guide you through an install.


Wires coming through the valance above the sink..

The backside of the valance after routing to assist in burying the cables. Remove the staples on the vinyl to assist with the edge route.




Sorry, not sure why some are posting sideways.

 

[TheWolfTC]

Well...the new waste line has been run from the master head to the engine room...what a JOB!!!
If anyone is thinking of doing this but hasn't tackled it yet... I have some pointers!!! LOL

1. Make sure you have band aids on board..a new box is a good start..get the variety pack! Along with some gauze and medical tape. (for those cuts on the knuckles where a band aid won't stick.)
2. As much as this goes against EVERYTHING I cherish about boating and working on my boat. Leave the cocktails out of the equation until said job is done. I know you want one, but DON'T do it!!
3. Pre-Cussing is optional but will help mentally. Sea Ray screwed us on this design and where they placed the hose clamps..I could spend a day writing expletives about the engineer that needs to be drawn and quartered with his/her piping options. (I am an equal opportunity "bitcher" and I don't want to single out men here, but I think a female may have thought this through a little better).
4. Cussing during this project will come in to play. I know I am not supposed to say those words, but I did and I have added a few dollars to the swear jar at home. (ok, a hundred dollars!! and since I'm never running for President, I figured it would never catch up to me.)
5. Get a REALLY good friend to help! I mean, REALLY good..I'm talking buddy for life, a guy that you would give your kidney to if he needed it! (After this job you may need to)
6. A squirt bottle of soapy water.
7. Rags, towels and a bucket just in case.
8. GLOVES!

After that the usual array of screw guns, saws, wrenches, jig saw, hammer, long pry bar...a couple t-shirts that you don't care to ruin..shop vac..1 wet and 1 dry.

All of this is after you have run copious amounts of soapy water through the lines and are sure the lines are void of water...this makes the wearing of a full face mask less of a priority.

1st tip..REMOVE the sofa from the mid cabin. Unless you are skinny and can contort yourself like a monkey into a small box, get it out of the way so that the washer/dryer is also out of your way...note picture 1 below...a tight fit!! I can't stress this enough...lol make it easy on yourself!

Why didn't I remove it you ask? It was going to be a quick job and why bother going through all that. (5 hours later). Apparently QUICK is relative..and once we got started, back tracking seemed silly.

TIP #2 and this is important!!!
After you mark the wires that operate the sofa motor so that you can re-connect them properly when the job is done...BEFORE you cut them, move the sofa to its full BACK position then cut them. Failure to do so will result in the picture above. The wooden box it is attached to is large enough to prevent you from removing the sofa if the sofa is in the forward position. Trust me, I have first hand experience on this. In hind sight it would have been easier to re-wire the sofa motor, retract said sofa, disconnect and remove from mid cabin. If you are a drinker, now is a good time! (OH wait, I said to wait!!)

Removing the washer/dryer isn't all that bad in hindsight. This damn thing is heavier than my full size home model!! As you can see from the pic, it makes for a tight fit to get in behind it.

The drain hose disconnects from the bottom and it is simply a push on pressure fit. Pretty easy to deal with. You can access it from under this access hole above the water lines...from behind the fridge.


In my next post I will cover the Damn F%^$#*ing hose clamps, the water heater installation and lack of ability to replace/remove it easily and the easy and simple replacement of the new hose...seriously, we ran the new hose in about 10 minutes from the firewall as shown below to the vacuum cleaner compartment. I will also cover the tricks required to get the hose clamps out of the way that were installed UNDER the deck of the water heater floor and behind that damn thing on the firewall.


Hopefully this isn't boring anyone!

I am on my 2nd cocktail after a few hours of working on the above project...the boat "smell" is 95% GONE already and I have just finished with a germicidal disinfectant spray where the old hose touched anything. After that I am going to run a commercial ozonator for a couple hours to kill any remaining bacteria smells. Can't thank my friend enough...I think I will be "wheeling" his entire boat next weekend...
Have a GREAT week everyone!

PS: Sorry for the picture issues...I have no idea why the site is posting them like this...

 

[TheWolfTC]

Has anyone ever removed the corner seat in the mid-berth? I am baffled as to how they installed this thing.
Thanks
Bill

 

[TheWolfTC]

Question for all the incredibly smart followers of this forum...the mechanically inclined and expert DIY'ers.
So I am replacing the guest head sanitation hose and I discovered a slight problem during the process. When the vessel was put together, they pinched the hose between the floor deck and the hull. As you can see from the pictures, it was a slight mistake at the time of manufacture. I have gotten all of it removed from the mid berth and under the corner seat, but there is still about 3' left and I don't see any way to get it out. This portion is under the guest vanity sink cabinet...a real bugger to get to.





The 2nd photo with the long end is under the base of the sink and without cutting a new access hole in the cabinet under the sink....it will be stuck there forever. There isn't any way that I can figure as to how I can remove this last piece of hose....but I am open to any suggestions.

The only access to it as from inside the vanity base and as you well know, this is a really tough spot to work in. I was able to cut the hose with my rigid vibrating saw so that I could remove the toilet base, but the rest of the hose is so pinched under the deck, I think it is simply a matter of cutting it as short as possible and moving on.

Those buggers really wedged it in under the deck.

On a brighter note, the boat smells so much nicer with all the old permeated hose gone. I finished in the engine compartment today with the last piece of hose that runs from the "Y" under the battery box up towards the pump out neck. I was also able to complete both of the drain lines from the 2 tanks with the T valves to the Y.It's a pain, but it is worth an odor free engine room.

 

[TheWolfTC]

Why does the forum flip the pictures from their original position???

 

[HUMPH]

Damn, I was able to replace the forward head hose on my 410 in 4 hours! Many fewer obstacles for me.

 

[Graham Lorimer]

Damn, I was able to replace the forward head hose on my 410 in 4 hours! Many fewer obstacles for me.

I'm not really convinced that was the reply / comment he was looking for Ken! :grin::smt018

Graham

 

[fr8dog]

Wolfman,



I just had a similar experience. I replaced the ducting for the master berth ac and found the duct pinched as it turned upward behind the closet. The duct is 5 inch plus the insulation. Probably 7+ inches in diameter. The duct was flattened some and compressed as it passed through a small cut out behind the storage cabinet.


I had to cut an access hole in the step up to the bed, then enlarge the cut out before I could install the new duct. A very real P.I.T.A.!!


I am convinced that Sea Ray gives no thought to servicing many of the systems that will eventually require it.

 

[TheWolfTC]

I'm not really convinced that was the reply / comment he was looking for Ken! :grin::smt018

Graham

No, but it was a good one. LOL
I might have been trying to be too cautious as opposed to simply ripping it out, although I tried a come along at 1 point to simply rip the hose clamps free. That was to no avail. as all it did was bind tighter on the hose.

In the end, gripping the hose and twisting while pulling allowed it to come out. I just did that with the guest head hose because I couldn't figure out how to get the seat out. Of course that was only about 12' of hose and 3 clamps with an ample amount of soapy water sprayed on it to allow it to slip through.

I have learned a lot about the waste system on this boat! Not that I really wanted to know it all, but it's nice to learn something new.

As for the master head pump: I have replaced the bellows, motor, duckbills and cleaned the pump accumulator tank so I know it is clean. I completely removed it from the boat but I have a new challenge. It will create vacuum for the system, but it is cycling about every 10 minutes for 4 or 5 pumps. I have re-tightened every clamp in the system back to the head. I have replaced the water valve, ball and gasket at the head so I don't think my problem lies there. I disconnected the hose from the head and capped the inlet to allow it to pressurize. After about 5 minutes it cycles for 5 pumps.

SO, what could it be? Could the inlet connection be leaking? I sprayed soapy water at it to see if it bubbles and it didn't. Could it be the vacuum tank switch? I am stumped again.

Thanks for all the feedback. I have succumbed to the pinched hose though. It isn't coming out! I'll just cut off all that I can and let it live below decks as it has for 16 years now.

 

[Raeoflight]

Quick question off the pooh hose topic. Does anyone elses port windshield wiper have an angle in the arm? Mine on starboard is straight but on the port side, there's an angle in the arm. Wonder if someone bent it or was it made that way.

 

[fr8dog]

Just looked and mine are they are both straight.

 

[HUMPH]

I'm not really convinced that was the reply / comment he was looking for Ken! :grin::smt018

Graham

just a point that they made it very difficult in my boat yet much more difficult in a larger model. Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[TheWolfTC]

Finally got around to finding a panel match for the new Nova Kool fridge I am installing over the holidays. Nova Kool only offers a black or stainless panel insert but it doesn't look that good with the maple interior. I went to my local mill work shop and selected a Formica that is a nearly identical match to the Vitra-core. Although it isn't a high gloss sheen it is pretty darn close and looks great!


This took a whopping 10 minutes to install into the door panels too, so it was like hitting the easy button at Staples!!

 

[NotHerDecision]

Well I have made lots of progress on the 460 but I need some expert advice. For the life of me I cannot get to the bottom aftercooler zinc on the starboard engine or the heat exchanger zinc on the port motor. Hoping one of you have the "trick" and can make my life easier. I think I finally found the issue with my guest head. I think it's the accumulator tank. Looks like it has a hairline crack where it is bolted to the floor. They are super expensive so I think I'm going to just take it out and attempt to repair the crack.

As far as other upgrades, I replaced all the interior lights with LED's except the courtesy lights under the steps and the bed, I cannot find that size anywhere! I ordered 3 different bulbs to no avail. My last question is on the genset, if I am changing the onboard fuel filter, do I need to shut a fuel valve off somewhere and do I need to have diesel on hand to fill that little cup once I change it?

Thanks everyone!


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[TheWolfTC]

Well I have made lots of progress on the 460 but I need some expert advice. For the life of me I cannot get to the bottom aftercooler zinc on the starboard engine or the heat exchanger zinc on the port motor. Hoping one of you have the "trick" and can make my life easier. I think I finally found the issue with my guest head. I think it's the accumulator tank. Looks like it has a hairline crack where it is bolted to the floor. They are super expensive so I think I'm going to just take it out and attempt to repair the crack.

As far as other upgrades, I replaced all the interior lights with LED's except the courtesy lights under the steps and the bed, I cannot find that size anywhere! I ordered 3 different bulbs to no avail. My last question is on the genset, if I am changing the onboard fuel filter, do I need to shut a fuel valve off somewhere and do I need to have diesel on hand to fill that little cup once I change it?

Thanks everyone!


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Hopefully I can help with a couple items: I have a 99 460 and I am not sure if we have the exact same lights at the steps and the 2 under the master berth. If we do here is the bulb I used to replace them with LED: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TLNURW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These are the bulbs I used in both cedar closets fore and aft...https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014LR4MDI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

As for the accumulator tank...I have been working on my head systems for the past month. I have replaced the entire hose system in the boat as well as the 2 motors, bellows, duckbills etc etc. I have had both accumulator tanks out of the boat for cleaning and re-building. After putting it all back together I am still getting vacuum leaks. I spoke with Dometic tech support and they were very helpful. I finally buckled under pressure and purchased their vacuum gauge and it has been a real help in tracing the problem. Both of my tanks leak at the inlet elbow, which I now have on order and will be replacing to finish the project. I won't bore you on this thread with all of the pressure testing (not vacuum testing) I have done to track down these leaks. I thought it was in my hose cuffs or couplers but it turns out its at the tank inlets.

I would venture a guess, and I am not an engineer or expert on glues, trying to spread glue on the crack would be futile. The 10" of vacuum the system generates is pretty strong and you would need to possibly heat weld (melt together) the entire hairline crack for it to hold. I don't think glue will penetrate the crack enough to seal it properly once the vacuum is applied, not to mention you may still have liquid internally along the crack. I think the only way to really know if you have a crack in the tank would be to inject air into it, then spray it with soapy water and look for bubbles. This is how I tested my entire hose system between the tanks and the heads to make sure I didn't have any bad glue joints.

Per Dometic tech support. If you use their gauge and insert it at the elbow, allow the pump to create the vacuum, then watch the gauge. If it drops 1" in vacuum it will cycle the pump. If the gauge does not drop in vacuum then you have a faulty switch. The person I spoke with said that it is most likely NOT the switch and it will be the elbow. It is a pressure fit elbow and the rubber ring dries out over time and loses it's ability to seal. She said they rarely see the switch go bad.

Hopefully that wasn't too much! Sorry I can't help with the engine stuff. I leave the bulk of that to my Volvo-Penta Mechanic. :smt038

 

[ZZ13]

Josh, I replaced my courtesy light with LED by buying the exact fixture from the same company online. It came with an LED bulb built in. I had to do this because my lens had melted over time and the fixture was broken up. It's the Imtra Montauk. Here is a link: http://www.p2marine.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=31427&gclid=CKf285al-9ACFQKHswodSBsA0A

If you follow both the generator fuel feed and return lines back to the tank, you should have little shutoff valves for both at the top of the tank. I shut mine off there when I do the genny filters. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think I put fuel in that little canister when I replaced mine. Just took a tad longer to start.

Can't help with the zincs. Same engines but mine are turned on the other direction (straight drives).


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