400DB and 480DB value / depreciation

[Ms. Mymoney]

I am in the market for a sedan bridge boat. It seems most people who own 480s have stepped up from a 400. The thought of buying a boat, the surveys, haul outs, locating, transportation, etc all stress me out. On one hand the 480 is borderline out of our budget but is do-able, especially in a year or two. The 400 is definitely in our budget but isn't worth it if we are going to want to step up in a few years.

400s are in the $150-190k (1999 & 2000 models with Cat 3116) range in my area and there aren't any 480s around. The 480s seem to be in the $230-300k range (1999-2000 models). My question is, to people who have been around these boats longer than I have, are these guys still depreciating? Three years ago what were these boats worth? I know the bubble in 2008 plays a factor but overall are these boats done depreciating?

Reason is, the 400 isn't worth it if we're going to take a $20-30k hit and sell it three years from now to get something larger. And it seems most people with large families needed the room of something bigger.

 

[Presentation]

Please consider all expenses.

Even if you take a $30,000 hit after 3 years with the 400 you may be money ahead.

Somewhere around here John (screen name Hampton) posted a brutally honest expense breakdown of his sedan bridge including depreciation vs his previous boat.

For him he is happy. That being said his post should be mandatory reading for all those considering purchasing a cruiser except those with money coming out their wazoo.

I’ll keep looking for it but if someone else here knows where it went please post a link.

 

[Presentation]

Here please read this post and John's follow up posts:

http://clubsearay.com/showthread.ph...r-seasonal-costs-for-2011?p=518378#post518378

 

[rcknecht]

Its a matter of supply and demand... the depreciation curve as boats get older flattens... If you were looking a 2005-2008 you might make out waiting, but I would go for the 400 and enjoy the time you have now... Many of the people that moved up, moved up when the economy was in great shape. Some very good deals out there on the 400s here in the North East... Also, the 400 get much better fuel economy than the 480s and you may find the boat fits your lifestyle perfectly...

 

[rondds]

Insert argument about Gas vs. Diesel powered 400DB here ______________________________.

​you'd be nuts to go gas on this boat, but you didn't ask me!

 

[Presentation]

Its a matter of supply and demand... the depreciation curve as boats get older flattens... If you were looking a 2005-2008 you might make out waiting, but I would go for the 400 and enjoy the time you have now... Many of the people that moved up, moved up when the economy was in great shape. Some very good deals out there on the 400s here in the North East... Also, the 400 get much better fuel economy than the 480s and you may find the boat fits your lifestyle perfectly...

Or, given SeaRay’s recent rebadging initiative, get a 400, buy a 8 and some super glue. Pop off the first 0 with a screwdriver then glue on the 8 in its place. Bingo, you got a 480 at the cost of a 400.

 

[rcknecht]

Or, given SeaRay’s recent rebadging initiative, get a 400, buy a 8 and some super glue. Pop off the first 0 with a screwdriver then glue on the 8 in its place. Bingo, you got a 480 at the cost of a 400.

:smt038:smt038:smt043:smt043

 

[rondds]

The 400DB is a BIG, HEAVY boat. 45'+ LOA. Not sure what size your crew is, but you get a third stateroom in the 480. You wont find a gas-powered 480DB.

 

[Sea Wolff]

Over the years we have known a number of boaters, not just SR owners, who had boats in the 50'+ range and sold and went back to the 40'+ range. they found it was to much boat for a couple. to much to handle, berth, etc.

the 400 DB is one of SR most popular models, and there are many reasons why :smt038

good luck

 

[Ms. Mymoney]

Or, given SeaRay’s recent rebadging initiative, get a 400, buy a 8 and some super glue. Pop off the first 0 with a screwdriver then glue on the 8 in its place. Bingo, you got a 480 at the cost of a 400.

LOL! Yes!

 

[Ms. Mymoney]

For our boating style & the fact we boat up and down a stretch of the Ohio River that is roughly 20 miles long I would be fine with a gas boat. The added fuel cost and maintenance expenses would outweigh the fuel economy savings. That being said, I have a feeling that if we had something with a little more room to it we would start venturing out of our normal area. The diesels would be beneficial then.

So, what were 400DBs being sold for (or listed for) 2-3 years ago? Would you say a 11-12 yr old boat has pretty much leveled off?

 

[boltman]

I'm waiting for the gang with 480's to chime in,but that said I'd hang out for the 480 sedan bridge. I know it's more, but if you are already considering it, then the 400 isn't going to last and I believe you will still take a hit on the resale of that boat. I just bought mine this spring and we as a couple LOVE it...We will grow with this boat and we'll be able to grow geographically as well, meaning when we're ready we can take the long cruises and vacations we dream about, take your time and keep looking for boats.....it's a life altering decision.

 

[Presentation]

Ms Mondy,

I’ll take a wild stab at your question. A broker may be able to give you a more precise answer.

If a 10 year used boat was selling for $250,000 in the spring of 2008, by the spring of 2009 the now 11 year old boat was not selling for even $200,000.

Let’s call it $170,000 realistic sell price. The supply simply was dramatically greater then demand.

The reason for this sharp drop in value was the economy. In one year the boat took a hit that was a 3 to 4 year depreciation hit to its value.

Although this imbalance continues today the imbalance is less then it was in 2009 in my opinion. Certainly the supply demand imbalance is not worse today than it was in 2009.



So that imaginary boat that would have sold for $250,000 in 2008 then would have sold for $170,000 in 2009, given the boat was maintained at a normal level has remained level for the last two years at $170,000 on average.

Is the boat done depreciating? In my opinion, no. The depreciation was simply concentrated to one year given the financial reality of the country.
Will it continue to depreciate? In my opinion, yes, at a rate of at least 10% of the remaining balance each year until its scrapped for parts.


Assuming the economy does not significantly change, better or worse, in 2012 this $170,000 boat will depreciate another 10% of $17,000, then in 2012 another 10% of the new value of 153,000 or $15,300 then in 2012 another 10% of the new value of 137,700 or $13,770 and so on.


Along this aging journey someone may drop a significant amount of money into the boat increasing its value at some percent of the money they stuck into it. Add $30,000 worth of electronics? The boat may remain constant that year. Rebuild the motors? Again depreciating may take a year off due to the investment someone put into the boat.

The economy takes a positive turn; the hit may take a year off. However……gulp, the PIGS (specific European nations) fall apart financially causing a economic domino effect taking our economy down? Well, it could be 2008/2009 all over again…...or worse.

At some point an item breaks such that the cost of repair exceeds then remaining boat value. At that point the boat is worth scrap value, depending on what is on this boat at the time the scrap value may be a negative number.



Just my opinion.

 

[katricol]

WoW Presentation....I wish that didn't make any sense. Mymoney, the 400 and 480 bridge boats are two of my favorite models, but there is a huge difference (IMO) in the "holding " costs and operating costs of the two boats. ALL boats are going to depreciate..that is a given. I think you would be better off thinking about if the higher cost of keeeping a 480 is worth the value of having a much larger, stable platform to do your future style of boating on.

 

[fwebster]

I understand your desire to know depreciation rate, but there is one factor that screws up all the pretty graphs and scientific reasoning........that is used boat condition. On 10-15 year old boat, what is average? Are enough units sold to allow a statistically accurate average value? I don't think so.

Besides, if you take an absolute cream puff (400DB or 480DB) with a service record and all maintenance up to date, nice gelcoat, nice vinyl, fresh canvas it can be worth as much as 50% more than one at the other end of the spectrum that has a lot of deferred maintenance needs. Simularly, if you buy an average boat, care for it, keep it fresh, etc. it will be worth more in 3 years than when you bought it.

I don't agree with the advice to stretch your budget to get a 480 now. That will force you into one of the early models with the more undesireable 3196 Cat power. You should look for a 2003 up QSM-11 or MAN powered boat if you are 480 shopping.

 

[Alex F]

For our boating style & the fact we boat up and down a stretch of the Ohio River that is roughly 20 miles long I would be fine with a gas boat. The added fuel cost and maintenance expenses would outweigh the fuel economy savings. That being said, I have a feeling that if we had something with a little more room to it we would start venturing out of our normal area. The diesels would be beneficial then....

I always say that when planning an upgrade you should consider that fact that you'll enhance your comfort level by being in the larger yachm which you would love to use more and more and travel much greater distances than you previously did. I speak from first hand experience. With every upgrade this is exactly how our boating lifestyle is changing. Having said that, you can "steal" late 90s 400DB with GAS. However, once you realize that this is your new "floating house", which you want to take for long cruises this is where you'll start PAYING for the difference between gas and diesel. Frank is 100% correct that used market is very broad. When looking at 12-15yrs old yacht there's a lot to consider. Besides good points Frank made, what do you think will have longer lifespan diesel vs. gas engines (obviously it's rhetorical question)? Some people may think that in worst case scenario it's not too expensive to throw new gas engines. Well, after observing what my friend is going through on his 370DA, I don't think that it falls anywhere near "cheap swap" category. When looking at ads $4K for new engine (just a rough example) we don't realize tons of hidden items that are involved in the job. One thing I also knw for sure is that it's very expensive to maintain diesels. I'm referring to items that are on the list of 500hrs or 1000hrs service. Items like aftercoolers and heat exchangers cost a lot to service. Some things like water pump may cost over x10 comparing to gas engine (I remember paying $96 for water pump on my 5.0L engine, but I payed over $1K for new Cummins pump. But I think it all pays off in the long run.

So, knowing your limits and future boating lifestyle you have to make the final choice what's really worth it.

Lastly, I don't think it's a good idea to get in to the yacht like 400DB for only 3 years. It's just way too much of a hassle to find really good one for a good price. Then, you spend good chunk of money to get her up the speed with all the items. Only with some reasonable timeframe all of this makes sense and worth it, but 3 yrs is just way too short, IMO.

Oh BTW, on very rare occasion you may find 400DB with 3 staterooms. Just an FYI....

 

[a6fan1127]

]First, You're not getting any younger - keep waiting and before you know it you're too old to enjoy the boat of your dreams and it's "coulda, shoulda, woulda" at your fifty year reunion!
Just bought a repo 2001 400 SB w/the big Cummins (385 hrs) Stamoid canvas (5yrs old +/-), clear maplle interior (we love this option!), freshwater entire life. Took a hit on my '04 340 Sundancer (small blocks, no generator, needed total canvas) but paid 156 and got an awesome boat for around my same payment monthly. Upkeep is more and stuff needs updating- ELECTRONICS! but found the cockpit cover (new never unwrapped!) in the guest stateroom, original outfitting papers from the company Sea Ray used, and four soft cases of manuals and paperwork original to boat. Two real showers, and a bed I can actually sleep on without feeling like I got beat with a bat in the morning.
Doing some interior mods with inspiration from Pat & Nancy and Pete & Pam. - Flat screen in the salon with new wall and headliner. Look for updates in near future.
So, buy your dream boat and enjoy - life's too short to worry if you could buy for a few grand cheaper next year - always think about the "opportunity cost":thumbsup:

View attachment 21895

 

[a6fan1127]

First, You're not getting any younger - keep waiting and before you know it you're too old to enjoy the boat of your dreams and it's "coulda, shoulda, woulda" at your fifty year reunion!
Just bought a repo 2001 400 SB w/the big Cummins (385 hrs) Stamoid canvas (5yrs old +/-), freshwater entire life. Took a hit on my '04 340 Sundancer (small blocks, no generator, needed total canvas) but paid 156 and got an awesome boat for around my same payment monthly. Upkeep is more and stuff needs updating- ELECTRONICS! but found the cockpit cover (new never unwrapped!) in the guest stateroom, original outfitting papers from the company Sea Ray used, and four soft cases of manuals and paperwork original to boat. Two real showers, and a bed I can actually sleep on without feeling like I beat with a bat in the morning.
Doing some interior mods with inspiration from Pat & Nancy and Pete & Pam. - Flat screen in the salon with new wall and headliner. Look for updates in near future.
So, buy your dream boat and enjoy - life's too short to worry if you could buy for a few grand cheaper next year - always think about the "opportunity cost":thumbsup: