trebbel
Member
I am hoping to be in a 400DB in the near future. Can anyone offer thoughts, praise, areas of concern, etc on this boat? The boat I am looking at is a Cat 3116TA powered boat.
400 Sedan Bridge
- Thread starter trebbel
- Start date
Converse48
Well-Known Member
Todd-
It's a great boat with an awesome layout and a ton of interior room. My boat is a similar design and a good friend of mine has the 400. Here are my two main thoughts:
Point 1- Make sure you're really a "bridge boat guy". This breaks down into three subpoints:
a) What you gain in interior room, particularly the salon, you lose in the outdoor, back deck "social area" on your dancer. Yes, the bridge basically replaces that space, but since it's upstairs, it never gets used as often for that purpose. Of course, this has the added advantage of actually being separated from the rest of the boat if you have "screaming kid" issues.
b) Although often over-exaggerated, the basic physics of being higher off the water means the sense of movement on a flying bridge is greater than what you're used to in the dancer. In your case the size differential may offset this effect. Again, this is not as big a deal as people make it out to be and since you're in Abingdon, MD I assume you're on the upper Bay. If so, this is a non-issue.
c) Visibility when docking is not as good and you need to develop more of a feel. On this particular boat the trick is to stand facing backwards so you can see down the steps to the port aft corner of the boat. As long as the slip you're backing into is wide enough, this is more than enough information to work with. It takes some getting used to but it's not a big deal.
Point 2: This is not a small boat, make sure it is properly powered. How much horsepower do the 3116TAs have? My boat is (I feel) properly powered (26 knot cruise) with the QSC-500s at 478php. My buddy has 430php Cummins and his boat is adequately powered (22 knot cruise). I'd be concerned going much below 400. Of course, torque is the real number of concern from what I understand so don't get hung up on the HP numbers, just make sure the boat is properly powered for what your expectations are for a cruising speed.
Other than those questions, it is a great boat, especially for the Bay.
Best of luck!
It's a great boat with an awesome layout and a ton of interior room. My boat is a similar design and a good friend of mine has the 400. Here are my two main thoughts:
Point 1- Make sure you're really a "bridge boat guy". This breaks down into three subpoints:
a) What you gain in interior room, particularly the salon, you lose in the outdoor, back deck "social area" on your dancer. Yes, the bridge basically replaces that space, but since it's upstairs, it never gets used as often for that purpose. Of course, this has the added advantage of actually being separated from the rest of the boat if you have "screaming kid" issues.
b) Although often over-exaggerated, the basic physics of being higher off the water means the sense of movement on a flying bridge is greater than what you're used to in the dancer. In your case the size differential may offset this effect. Again, this is not as big a deal as people make it out to be and since you're in Abingdon, MD I assume you're on the upper Bay. If so, this is a non-issue.
c) Visibility when docking is not as good and you need to develop more of a feel. On this particular boat the trick is to stand facing backwards so you can see down the steps to the port aft corner of the boat. As long as the slip you're backing into is wide enough, this is more than enough information to work with. It takes some getting used to but it's not a big deal.
Point 2: This is not a small boat, make sure it is properly powered. How much horsepower do the 3116TAs have? My boat is (I feel) properly powered (26 knot cruise) with the QSC-500s at 478php. My buddy has 430php Cummins and his boat is adequately powered (22 knot cruise). I'd be concerned going much below 400. Of course, torque is the real number of concern from what I understand so don't get hung up on the HP numbers, just make sure the boat is properly powered for what your expectations are for a cruising speed.
Other than those questions, it is a great boat, especially for the Bay.
Best of luck!
trebbel
Member
Thanks ProdigalSon, I appreciate your feedback. We really enjoyed your pics from Cape May and, as a condition of the new boat purchase, have promised my wife a trip on the boat to "the beach." Your boat is beautiful too, hopefully our next, next boat. We spent too much time on the 44DB Sunday in Annapolis.
I am pleased with everything on the 400DB and think I am a bridge boat guy. The motors have been the biggest concern. They are rated at 350hp. WOT she hits 24kts (2750ish rpm) cruise is 21kts at 2500. She is not fast but I am okay with that. We normally cruise at 23 kts in our dancer. The ride is fine. Fairly calm and quiet with the door down.
Were you at the Oyster Fest this past weekend? I had a work event Saturday otherwise I would have been 'snorting' oysters as they say...
I am pleased with everything on the 400DB and think I am a bridge boat guy. The motors have been the biggest concern. They are rated at 350hp. WOT she hits 24kts (2750ish rpm) cruise is 21kts at 2500. She is not fast but I am okay with that. We normally cruise at 23 kts in our dancer. The ride is fine. Fairly calm and quiet with the door down.
Were you at the Oyster Fest this past weekend? I had a work event Saturday otherwise I would have been 'snorting' oysters as they say...
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,155
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Tim is correct about engine torque. Cat engines are known for having huge torque numbers. The 3116's will move plenty of water and the 400DB is adequately powered with them. I will not respond to the Cummins vs. Cat thing again, but I'd equate the performance of these engines in the 400DB to the performance of larger Cummins 6CTA's in the same boat except for top end speed.....where the high HP of the Cummins engines can be felt, and where they burn more fuel.
The 3116 Caterpillars were essentially free from and not involved in the various problems everyone likes to talk about but don't seem to understand. The best thing about these engines are their economy...at cruise rpms the 400DB will burn 22.6 GPH. True, you won't be running 28-30 kts, but your friends who do will also be burning 40+ gph.
The other nice thing about the 3116 and 3126 engines is how clean they run. Cat's unit injection system is as clean burning as most companies common rail systems. On a cold day you'll get a puff of smoke on start up but after that no smoke at all. I particularly like the fact that they are mechanicl engines and are very simple to maintain and service.
But I'm a little concerned at the rpm's you quoted and want to be sure you understand that full WOT rpms are supposed to be 2800 rpm and normal cruise rpms are 2400 rpm. The quickest way to shorten the life of any diesel is to over load it, so plan on 2400 or lower for cruise settings.
Great boat...hope it works out.
The 3116 Caterpillars were essentially free from and not involved in the various problems everyone likes to talk about but don't seem to understand. The best thing about these engines are their economy...at cruise rpms the 400DB will burn 22.6 GPH. True, you won't be running 28-30 kts, but your friends who do will also be burning 40+ gph.
The other nice thing about the 3116 and 3126 engines is how clean they run. Cat's unit injection system is as clean burning as most companies common rail systems. On a cold day you'll get a puff of smoke on start up but after that no smoke at all. I particularly like the fact that they are mechanicl engines and are very simple to maintain and service.
But I'm a little concerned at the rpm's you quoted and want to be sure you understand that full WOT rpms are supposed to be 2800 rpm and normal cruise rpms are 2400 rpm. The quickest way to shorten the life of any diesel is to over load it, so plan on 2400 or lower for cruise settings.
Great boat...hope it works out.
Converse48
Well-Known Member
Todd, to answer your question about Oyster Fest in RH. My wife and I tried to find it on Saturday morning, but all we could find was a few "buy boats" tied up to the municipal dock...
and I was looking forward to the "Miss Bi-Valve" competition! We ended up going to St. Michaels.
And Frank, I wasn't trying to stoke a Cat-Cummins argument... I don't have enough ammo for that fight... I just wanted to highlight to Todd that he should consider if his desired cruising speed can be achieved with the power arrangement on the boat he is considering. It sounds like it's fine so case closed on that from my end!
and I was looking forward to the "Miss Bi-Valve" competition! We ended up going to St. Michaels.
And Frank, I wasn't trying to stoke a Cat-Cummins argument... I don't have enough ammo for that fight... I just wanted to highlight to Todd that he should consider if his desired cruising speed can be achieved with the power arrangement on the boat he is considering. It sounds like it's fine so case closed on that from my end!
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rondds
Well-Known Member
- Oct 3, 2006
- 8,859
- Boat Info
- 2001 380DA
- Engines
- Merc 8.1s (2008)...Hurth ZF 63 V-drives...WB 7.0 BCGD (2013), Garmin 8208 & 740 MFDs, GMR 24xHD dome
todd:
is this your boat??
http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?searchtype=buy&rev_srh=%2Flisting%2Fcache%2Fadvanced_search.jsp%3Fsearchtype%3Dbuy%26fromYear%3D1998%26uom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26duom%3D126%26wuom%3D126%26toYear%3D2002%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D40%26currencyid%3D100%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D40%26ftid%3D101%26sfm%3Dfalse%26ic%3Dtrue%26man%3Dsearay%26slim%3Dquick%26psdistance%3D500%26pszipcode%3D07733%26ps%3D30%26clk_srcrvs_nav&back=session&srh_next=true&entityid=15905441&srh_prev=true&searchid=1
i found 2 other maryland 400DBs but they were over 400hp. as the owner of a gas-guzzling bridge boat, i can only say be happy you will be getting diesels!
a word about the alleged "elevated isolation" that is rumored to be a problem for owners of bridge boats. this boat has a HUGE bridge (room for everyone) and a stairway leading up, as opposed to a ladder (like i have:smt013). ladders definitely prevent some from coming on up. with a stairway, the only people that wont join you up top are those who are afraid, and, in my opinion, they should not even be allowed on your boat. :thumbsup:
others that wont join you are those who you do NOT want up there with you (small rugrats that tend to touch everything and ask too many questions). so i wouldnt worry about the isolation factor. it COULD work to your advantage:smt038
this is a SWEET RIDE and a great boat - i wish you the very best in your quest!
is this your boat??
http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details.jsp?searchtype=buy&rev_srh=%2Flisting%2Fcache%2Fadvanced_search.jsp%3Fsearchtype%3Dbuy%26fromYear%3D1998%26uom%3D126%26sm%3D3%26duom%3D126%26wuom%3D126%26toYear%3D2002%26luom%3D126%26toLength%3D40%26currencyid%3D100%26ps%3D30%26fromLength%3D40%26ftid%3D101%26sfm%3Dfalse%26ic%3Dtrue%26man%3Dsearay%26slim%3Dquick%26psdistance%3D500%26pszipcode%3D07733%26ps%3D30%26clk_srcrvs_nav&back=session&srh_next=true&entityid=15905441&srh_prev=true&searchid=1
i found 2 other maryland 400DBs but they were over 400hp. as the owner of a gas-guzzling bridge boat, i can only say be happy you will be getting diesels!
a word about the alleged "elevated isolation" that is rumored to be a problem for owners of bridge boats. this boat has a HUGE bridge (room for everyone) and a stairway leading up, as opposed to a ladder (like i have:smt013). ladders definitely prevent some from coming on up. with a stairway, the only people that wont join you up top are those who are afraid, and, in my opinion, they should not even be allowed on your boat. :thumbsup:
others that wont join you are those who you do NOT want up there with you (small rugrats that tend to touch everything and ask too many questions). so i wouldnt worry about the isolation factor. it COULD work to your advantage:smt038
this is a SWEET RIDE and a great boat - i wish you the very best in your quest!
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trebbel
Member
The boat we are looking at is a 1999. Obviously same layout but with cherry vitracore. I really like the flip-up seats that they put in the later models also.
It is tough right now with the market.. Ready to move on the new boat but no one will take the old one... Can't/Won't do two boats. Friends of my family had a 50 and a 44 for over a year. The 50 was a good deal but double the "fun" of boat ownership would be a tough spot.
I like the steps to the bridge as everyone can be a part of the fun, ladders can be tough for some. We don't have any "little fingers" yet but with the low level of the dash that could be a real issue.
I love the boat. The only changes I am planning on making are:
Adding a grill on the platform or stern
Extending the flybridge canvas to the arch or back about 1 foot so there is a straight drop (you can not sit with the canvas down along the back row of the bridge.
Garmin 5212
Cleaning service so my boat can look like the gorgeous 52 behind me...
It is tough right now with the market.. Ready to move on the new boat but no one will take the old one... Can't/Won't do two boats. Friends of my family had a 50 and a 44 for over a year. The 50 was a good deal but double the "fun" of boat ownership would be a tough spot.
I like the steps to the bridge as everyone can be a part of the fun, ladders can be tough for some. We don't have any "little fingers" yet but with the low level of the dash that could be a real issue.
I love the boat. The only changes I am planning on making are:
Adding a grill on the platform or stern
Extending the flybridge canvas to the arch or back about 1 foot so there is a straight drop (you can not sit with the canvas down along the back row of the bridge.
Garmin 5212
Cleaning service so my boat can look like the gorgeous 52 behind me...
vanburen
New Member
I too am looking at making a move from a 2003 320DA to a 2005 420DB, and this thread has been very helpful.
The boat I am considering has T-Cummins MerCruiser® 480 CE (T-446 hp - 333 kW) engines - would appreciate any feedback on them. It appears they are adequate.
I've also looked at the change in maintenance and it doesn't appear dramatic other than larger boat to clean, and a few more heads and things to winterize. Am I missing something here and in for a huge increase in cost?
Finally, I say mention of a 25gph burn, is that per engine or total? I am trying to estimate my fuel bill for the upcoming year.
Finally, we will be dealing with two small kids (2,6) so if anyone has had experience with same on this class of boat (400, 420, 440) I would greatly appreciate ideas. Sorry if I am highjacking this.
The boat I am considering has T-Cummins MerCruiser® 480 CE (T-446 hp - 333 kW) engines - would appreciate any feedback on them. It appears they are adequate.
I've also looked at the change in maintenance and it doesn't appear dramatic other than larger boat to clean, and a few more heads and things to winterize. Am I missing something here and in for a huge increase in cost?
Finally, I say mention of a 25gph burn, is that per engine or total? I am trying to estimate my fuel bill for the upcoming year.
Finally, we will be dealing with two small kids (2,6) so if anyone has had experience with same on this class of boat (400, 420, 440) I would greatly appreciate ideas. Sorry if I am highjacking this.
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Converse48
Well-Known Member
Vanburen- the 25 gph number quoted would be for both engines, but that was in reference to the Cat 3116s. The 480 CE Cummins engines will burn about 10 gph more than that. Of course they will push the boat faster, but then we start getting in to the whole MPG versus GPH versus GPM versus $PM argument which has been discussed at length (ad nauseum, really) on another thread.
As far as small kids... I have them too... mine are now 7 & 9, but were 4 & 6 when we got our first bridge boat. The steps to the bridge are a must have (versus a ladder) with kids. Also, the fact that the 400 has a hatch that can close the opening to the stairs when underway is also a great plus. I would have no worries about the kids (assuming usual, prudent life-jacket rules are applied).
Good luck in your search!
vanburen
New Member
Thanks for the quick reply. Things are moving well as we have found a clean boat.
Glad to hear the boat works well with kids - figured it would be but you never know. I see that you are in Rock Hall - have you been able to take the boat into Kentmoor on Kent Island? It is a great favorite of ours and I'm not sure how the increased draft will impact our boating - hopefully not at all.
Many thanks,
Glad to hear the boat works well with kids - figured it would be but you never know. I see that you are in Rock Hall - have you been able to take the boat into Kentmoor on Kent Island? It is a great favorite of ours and I'm not sure how the increased draft will impact our boating - hopefully not at all.
Many thanks,
rondds
Well-Known Member
- Oct 3, 2006
- 8,859
- Boat Info
- 2001 380DA
- Engines
- Merc 8.1s (2008)...Hurth ZF 63 V-drives...WB 7.0 BCGD (2013), Garmin 8208 & 740 MFDs, GMR 24xHD dome
in the past, there's been much made of the "Danger" that a flybridge poses to children. i'd have no problem debunking that argument. and i dont have a stairway (just a ladder). we got this boat when my daughter was 7 1/2 yo, and she was already a 6 year veteran of boating. we've had MANY friends on board, landlubbers and boaters alike with children ranging from 3 - 16yo (some of them ABSOLUTE TERRORS). there has never been a problem. your children (and those of guests) will learn the rules, just like they (begrudgingly sometimes) learn to wear a lifejacket, despite near 100 degree temps. and any guests must abide by the same rules or they will not be allowed on the boat. the iron fist sometimes has to come out. that may be the hardest part to deal with.
ENJOY THE HUNT and GOOD LUCK!
VIVA LA' BRIDGE BOAT!
ENJOY THE HUNT and GOOD LUCK!
VIVA LA' BRIDGE BOAT!
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The door on the floor on the bridge is nice though. It keeps the children from invading your space while underway and you don't have to get in the middle of the "DAD! JOHN LOOKED OUT MY WINDOW SO I PUNCHED HIM!" arguments.... just wish there was a lock on the thing.
Converse48
Well-Known Member
I haven't been to Kentmoor (by water anyway). Although we take the boat into some pretty funky places (just ask Gary). With the tunnels, the boat draws 44". Of course, it is the bottom of the props that is the first thing to hit (yikes), so I only go into the shallow places that I know by heart!
Hopefully we'll see you out there!
[Festivus will be launched in 21 days--- weather permitting]
Yes... it's the "turn left on the creek when the tree branches touch the bridge" directions that kill me...
ImpulseIII
Active Member
Ah...Still Pond....
vanburen
New Member
Everyone, thanks.
Sounds like it will be a good fit. I assume that staying in the cabin is an option underway on these boats? On our Sundancer, it really isn't, talk about a motionsickness-inducing experience.
What's the general consensus on dinghies, I see you have the WM 310. The boat we are looking at has lowerable swimplatform, so at some point, we're going to really want a dinghy. Again, kids are the driver here. I imagine tubing will be a desire etc. Any ideas or recommendations here?
Are there any particular threads that I need to check out - I've done some searches but easily could have missed the best threads.
Thanks!
Sounds like it will be a good fit. I assume that staying in the cabin is an option underway on these boats? On our Sundancer, it really isn't, talk about a motionsickness-inducing experience.
What's the general consensus on dinghies, I see you have the WM 310. The boat we are looking at has lowerable swimplatform, so at some point, we're going to really want a dinghy. Again, kids are the driver here. I imagine tubing will be a desire etc. Any ideas or recommendations here?
Are there any particular threads that I need to check out - I've done some searches but easily could have missed the best threads.
Thanks!
Converse48
Well-Known Member
Ed- The kids often ride in the salon watching Sponge Bob on the dish while basking in air conditioned comfort while my wife takes a shower. I, on the other hand, suffer in silence on the bridge.
You are very lucky if you have the lift platform, that's a $25K+ option. I'm happy with/tolerate the WM-310 only because my buddy with the 400 has a lift platform that he keeps his center-console mini-yacht on. Gary alternates between a jet dinghy and a PWC on the lift in his 48. It is a very cool option, don't waste it on a crappy little inflatable like mine. Get something cool. And yes, there are numerous "dinghy" threads, just search on the term.
Where will you keep the new boat?
wastinaweigh
Member
- Oct 4, 2006
- 219
- Boat Info
- 260 Sundancer 2004
Kohler 5E Generator
- Engines
- 350 MAG Bravo III
I'll add my 2 cents to the children on a flybridge boat, and say that I survived childhood just fine.
My parents purchased a 33' Silverton flybridge cruiser when I was 9 years old. Over the next 9 years I managed to not injure myself going up and down the ladder, even when the boat was in motion. I also managed to go forward on the side decks and never fell overboard.
It was down the Bay from you, in Solomons Md, with most of the time spent on the Chesapeke.
The only injury I suffered was at a boat show (Annapolis, I think) when I slipped on an Egg Harbor's ladder and cut my lip. Have never wanted an Egg since then...
That was the boat that my Dad taught me to operate, and I could handle it when running by the time I was 10, and could dock it by the time I was 12.
Your kids will love it!
My parents purchased a 33' Silverton flybridge cruiser when I was 9 years old. Over the next 9 years I managed to not injure myself going up and down the ladder, even when the boat was in motion. I also managed to go forward on the side decks and never fell overboard.
It was down the Bay from you, in Solomons Md, with most of the time spent on the Chesapeke.
The only injury I suffered was at a boat show (Annapolis, I think) when I slipped on an Egg Harbor's ladder and cut my lip. Have never wanted an Egg since then...
That was the boat that my Dad taught me to operate, and I could handle it when running by the time I was 10, and could dock it by the time I was 12.
Your kids will love it!
vanburen
New Member
Again, thanks for the great replies. Regarding the lift, I am excited and have visions, in the future, of something fast and enjoyable. But wow, they are expensive and certainly will not be a part of any possible commisioning ceremonies.
We keep our present boat at Mears in Annapolis and have a new slip lined up out on the T-Head. We get up to Rock Hall once a year or so but often talk of doing it more frequently - great place. I think we've mentally made the move, hopefully we'll be able to agree on suitable terms to close the deal.
We keep our present boat at Mears in Annapolis and have a new slip lined up out on the T-Head. We get up to Rock Hall once a year or so but often talk of doing it more frequently - great place. I think we've mentally made the move, hopefully we'll be able to agree on suitable terms to close the deal.
ImpulseIII
Active Member
Vanburen, you sound like a good candidate for the BIH carnage..Common up!
