380 Sundancer Question

Ok, OK - I give - Diesels are king.

The cost of fuel is not what sold me, nor the longevity of the engines, since I could probably replace two gas engines for the cost of one diesel. Also, I do not do my own maintenance, so I think the cost of maintaining Diesels will probably water down the savings on gas (hope I am wrong here, but I hear the cost per hour for a diesel mechanic is almost double that of a gas mechanic).

The points that sold me are:

1. Close quarter handling!

2. The benefits of the diesels while cruising on a windy choppy day, will mean a lot less throttle work, due the torque from the diesels pushing the boat through the wind and chop (confirmation of this statement would be appreciated).

3. Once I go bigger than the 380, everyone agrees, including most gas boaters, diesels are the only opton.

With this said, and knowing I will have diesels on any boat larger than the 380DA, and the fact that my wife said, and I quote: "I want 2 bathrooms (heads) on our next boat. She said this while we were anchored off a beach on the perfect Saturday we just had here on Long Island, while my kids (girls) and their friends were swimming and having a great time in the warm Great South Bay. She said this is a great way to keep our kids close, and having a larger boat will make it easier for them to bring their friends, versus not wanting to be with the family on weekends. She said we need a bigger boat that the 380DA. Please note, I did everything possible to not smile and said "well if that is what you think we should do, I will start a new search, although I have spent a ton of time looking for the 380DA". This was one of the best moments in my boating history. While I now know my next boat will be diesels, I still have some concerns:

1. I use my boat alomost every weekend, but most runs are 45 minutes to an hour, aside from the 2 to 3 times a season we run 4 to 6 hours for a week long vacation on boat. Will this type of usage be a problem with diesels?

Lastly, now I may need to start a search on a larger Dancer. Please note I like to be able to pull the stern seat for fishing. Any suggestions?

Sorry for the long email, but when your wife asks you to get a bigger boat, than the already 8 foot bigger boat you are looking at, there should be very little delay in your actions - WAAAAWHOOOO! To avoid any nasty comments from those "I wear the pants in this family husbands out there", please note I bought our current 310DA, without my wife's buy-in. She did not even see the boat until after I docked it in our marina. So for her to make a 180 degree turn around like this, speaks tons to those that don't believe boating is a great family hobby, and worth every penny!

Jeff

P.S. I may still wind up in a 380DA, since I think it is plenty big for our needs, but I guess it is never big enough!
 
Your planned use for the boat is fine for diesel engines. They just want to run, as long as you don't over load them.

Overloading occurs with diesels in 2 ways. First, your engines should be able to turn up to full rated rpms when you run at WOT. As long as you can hit rated rpms you know your props are right, the bottom is clean, etc. To put numbers to this, Caterpillar 3208's for example are rated at 2800rpm, so with normal load and clean bottom your boat should turn up 2800 when you firewall the throttles.

Now, Caterpillar says for pleasure use, recommended continuous rpms are 85% of WOT or 2400 rpm. So, as long as your engines will turn up to 2800 and you keep them at or under 2400, they will last a long, long time........probably longer than you want to keep the boat.

But here's a catch.........if you let the bottom foul or put a ton of junk on the boat and you can only turn up 2600 rpm at WOT, the 85% doesn't change and you have to reduce your cruise rpms accordingly........2600X 85% = 2200rpm. Run over 2200 rpm and you overload the engines and shorten the engine life in this example.

As far as maintenance costs are concerned, I think you have heard some erroneous info. As far as mechanics rates, they vary all over the map depending upon location. In our area, a diesel specialist rate is about $120/hour...our local Sea Ray dealer gets $105/hour for Mercruiser trained technicians. The gottcha is that most significant diesel repairs require a specialist who has experience and is trained as well as having the specialized tools needed for your particular engines. This means you have to pay for the technicians travel time to and from your boat.

But, the cost is typically less than owning and maintaining a gas boat because you don't deal with riser and manifold replacement, tune ups, frequent water pump replacement, salt water effects on iron castings, etc. I owned a gas 390EC for 10 years...long eough to understand the long term costs of keeping a gas boat running, dependable and safe. I've now owned our present diesel powered boat for about 10 years and I have spent far less in maintenance and repairs on the diesel boat.

Go look at a 440DA, a 450DA ,a 460DA or even a 400/410DA before you buy a 380........it may save you boat shopping next year!
 
If you haven't already, you may want to read this post.... http://www.byowneryachts.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=815

At one point in our venture from the 380DA to the 410DA we were starting to get serious about the 450/460DAs. The admiral liked the 460DA, and I started to get VERY serious about 460DAs. We decided on the 410DA after we re-accessed our boating. We generally cruise with other 320's, 340's and upto 390's. If we went for the wider/longer 460, we would have been put off in different docks at most of our normal destinations. The admiral wasn't happy with that. Since this was our first diesel boat, I wasn't to concerned and I didn't put up any real battle. We love the 410DA, and the second head has already proven its worth. Plenty of beam (13' 10") and with 23,500 lbs, she gives a real nice ride.

Now, that being said, two weeks ago, we were walking the docks at Atlantic City and we got friendly with a 460DA owner (I'm hoping he comes on the board) and along with a few other couples, we took the nickel tour. My admiral now says that she LOVES the 460DA.....COOL.

We're not moving up yet, but I can tell you this, it will be a lot easier to convince her in a year or two (by my calendar anyway) to maybe even look at the 480DA.... :grin:

happy shopping.....
 
Dominic and other contributors to Dominic's thread,

That was one of the longest, but most enjoyable threads I have ever read. I could feel everyone's excitement, as Dominc went up and down on his personal roller coaster ride. I think you all have a novel in the making, which only us boaters would understand and enjoy, but it just may make non-boat lovers have a better understanding of our addiction.

In any case, this has been a roller coaster ride for me too, and now I am back looking at a 380da, which I am still leaning towards, due to the removeable stern seat, for fishing. Which leads me to another question. I was on a brokered 380 today, and could not figure out how to remove the stern seat. The legs fold up, but it does not seem to be sitting on a lip attached to the transom. Also, how the heck do you remove the seat cushion? This is one of the reasons for me liking the 380, over some of the larger Dancer choices with fixed stern seats.

Appreciate your responses.

Jeff
 
Jeff,
For what it is worth, I did very little maintenance on my 260 and 320 DAs beyond pulling dip sticks and cleaning strainers. Last year, in my first year of diesel boat ownership, I did all the annual services myself; engine zincs, oil, filters in mains, oil and filter in gen set, oil in trannies, primary and secondary fule filtration on the mains and gen set, plus full winterization of the boat. All I paid for was fluids, shop materials, and filters. I paid a local guy to do the in the water shrink wrap for me. I saved nearly $5K over what the SR dealer would have charged, and I knew when I was done that it was done right. I have absolutely no natural gift for things mechanical (my Dad was an AISE certified mechanic, and my wrench fumbling was a real source of consternation for him)
My point is, in most big boats with diesels, the engine room access is good and the service points are easy to get to. You can DIY and save a ton of money, and you become a better boat owner in the process..for a couple reasons. First, you know your boat pretty well after you have sweated and bled a little in the engine room. This means when someting bad happens when you are underway, you won't freak out like the 1-800 call-the-dealer-service-manager guy might. You will also become a minor hero to the pros who come to work on your boat. When pros see a clean engine room maintained by a knowledgeable owner, they are happy to go the extra mile for you. I have seen this on my boat several times in the last year, both from the Cummins Tech and the local yard staff who did my emergency haul in April.
You can do it, and the CSR crew is here to help.

regards
Skip
 
Well, I just put a deposit on a 2002 380da. Deal not done yet. Still need demo ride, boat and engine survey. A lot still has to happen for this deal to close, but who knows, I could be in a bigger boat in a week or two.

Whatever happens, I appreciate everyone's advice! You guys have been a great support group for a fellow addict!

Jeff
 
The seat is removable. I had a 2002 380 with gas engines for 3 years.

There are 2 pins that hold the seat foundation to the stern wall. The ends fold over so they don't work their way loose. So, you have to reach behind the seat, flip the ends of the pins up (to make the pin straight), then pull them out. After that, you can take the seat out. I lost a lot of blood from my knuckles doing that.

On mine, the cushion was screwed into the seat platform. I took out the screws, and used industrial strength velcro from Sam's Club to hold it on. With the cushion off, the seat is easy to remove. With it on, it is a pain in the A$%. There were also pins below the next 2 seats to take them out, but they pinned into the little shelf they sit on.

Once the seats are out, the cockpit is huge, and is easy to fish. Disassembly and reassembly was a pain, and it wasn't fuel efficient enough for the type of fishing I like to do.
 
Thanks for the reply on the removable stern seats. Glad they are removable. I was going to have something fabricated to make them removable, but this news is a lot better than having any custom work done! Thanks!

Jeff
 
I hope that all makes sense when you poke around back there.

A little velcro cost me a lot less blood, reduced the time it took to get the seat out, and generally improved my attitude.

I never could grasp what those foldable legs are for - you can't fold the seat against the transom anyways, and those stupid knee joints always bend away from you when you're trying to put the ends into the holes they fit into.

There have been lots of us gas-powered 380 owners around here. You can probably get about anything. And, all the other guys are a heck of a lot more knowledgeable than me about the stuff that really matters.
 
The look of the seats is why I assumed the stern seat would come out. I have the same seat base on my 310da. The only difference is, my 310da cushion has extra material with snaps, that snap under the seat base. Once I buy a 380da, I will unscrew the seat and install velcro as you described.

I just noticed your home port. I am currently looking at a boat in NY from the Seminole area.

Assuming I am able to do a deal on a 380da, I am sure I will have tons of questions. This is a great site!! Great bunch of guys, always willing to help. I only hope I can contribute as much as I receive from this site.
 
ylwjacket said:
The seat is removable. I had a 2002 380 with gas engines for 3 years.

There are 2 pins that hold the seat foundation to the stern wall. The ends fold over so they don't work their way loose. So, you have to reach behind the seat, flip the ends of the pins up (to make the pin straight), then pull them out. After that, you can take the seat out. I lost a lot of blood from my knuckles doing that.

On mine, the cushion was screwed into the seat platform. I took out the screws, and used industrial strength velcro from Sam's Club to hold it on. With the cushion off, the seat is easy to remove. With it on, it is a pain in the A$%. There were also pins below the next 2 seats to take them out, but they pinned into the little shelf they sit on.

Once the seats are out, the cockpit is huge, and is easy to fish. Disassembly and reassembly was a pain, and it wasn't fuel efficient enough for the type of fishing I like to do.
Click to expand...

Same concept on my 340, except the cushions are only fastened with snaps, so easy to remove. I keep the pins and leg hinges greasedwith Merc 101 all the time, that way they come out easily. Take the seat out and the cockpit of the old 340 is also huge. Can't do it ont he new 340 ... one of the reasons amongst many otehrs the old 340 has inch fo inch more utility than the new one, albeit the new 340 design being more modern and better looking.
 
It is here in NY, but spent most of it's life in Tampa. Not sure if it was ever owned in NY. I know of at least 2 prior owners in Tampa.
 
good luck.

make sure the risers and manifolds are checked and have been replaced. they don't last too long around here.

a lot of people around here try to sell their boats up north, because there are less of them, and they can get more money up there. the guy that bought my 380 saw it online, came down from chicago, bought it and shipped it back, for less than he would have paid up there. plus, in my case at least, it was a brand new 4 year old boat, and he got a deal.

it might be worth a look online for some florida boats - there an absolute ton of gas 380's around here, and they are cheap now.
 
If I did not have a boat to trade, I would probably look at many more 380's. But owning a boat limits my choices of who to buy from. To date, I can't say my buying experience with a local NY Marine Max dealer has been fun. In fact I think this deal is about to die. I don't want to say too much on this site, since if I was a Sea Ray sales person, I would frequent this site for tips. Although, based on my experience with this dealer, I doubt they attempt to improve their salesmanship, or customer service.
 
ylwjacket,

Is there a higher salt content in the water in Florida? The warmer water? I know up here they say the manifold/risers last 5 to 7 years, sometimes longer. What is it it in Florida?

Jeff
 
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